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Clutch Skills?

Joined
22 October 2002
Messages
279
Location
Rowland Heights, CA
Nsxtasy brought up a good point in another thread as he usually does about how most of us believe we are greatly skilled with a clutch yet most of us aren't in reality or atleast there are the few who are greater than the rest.

I was wondering what charaterists are considered good when using your clutch. What makes you better than someone else?

During normal driving conditions aren't smooth starts favored over quick hard starts? Is clutch control the determining factor of who is good with the clutch? Being able to do both smooth launches and quick launches? Smooth and quick seem to be contradictory terms when it comes to a manual car.

Also there was mention of clutch wear but I mean clutch wear equals less stress on the tranny in most cases no?

Things are heel-toe should be mastered, any other skills for the track/canyon? double clutching (just incase)?
 
With the NSX double plate clutch, soft or smooth takeoffs are the anathema of clutch life. A quicker release, with a little jerk, will give many, many more miles. The best way to do this is by raising the revs and releasing the clutch as the revs fall back toward idle speed.

I will be the first to admit that I do not do this well. It is definately a learned trait. Heel and toe is great for downshifts, and will help on the street, but saves a lot more clutch material at the track. The main thing is quick and decisive.
 
In that case I'm AWESOME! lol cept i drive a truck with a single plate so does that make me bad? hahaha

Plus aren't 97+ cars single plate clutch?
 
Found a post by Nsxtasy that answers the question very well thought I'd post it hear for reference because it was from another thread with a different topic.

nsxtasy said:
Exactly.

Driving at high RPMs is fine; you can do it all day long (if you don't mind using more gas than you would in a higher gear. That has nothing to do with being abusive to the clutch.

As I mentioned previously, abuse to the clutch means slipping the clutch, and/or dumping the clutch from a standing stop at high revs like at the dragstrip. Good clutch practices consist of (a) spending as little time as possible in the transition between the clutch engaged and the clutch disengaged; and (b) matching revs while shifting whenever possible. You can use these good clutch practices even if you take the car to redline before upshifting. And you should - when the clutch is new, as well as when it's not.

That's why the "driving like grandma" comment about the clutch makes no sense to me.
 
I'd like to see proof that most of us think we are greatly skilled with a clutch as I think this is untrue. I'd also like to see the definition of great clutch skills.
 
"Clutch Skills"--

what is that??

I mean, you have to be "skilled" with a clutch to get great numbers on the track and during straight -line acceleration.

But you also need good "skills" to keep from burning up a clutch quickly.

Obviously, these are two different "skill" styles.

You can burn up any clutch in any car in 15,000 miles. All have a fixed lifespan, but I've read of NSX clutches lasting 80,000 miles, and some lasting 15,000.

It's impossible to know what these #'s mean unless you know the driving habits of the driver of those clutches.

I got 205,000 miles out of the stock clutch in my Subaru wagon, and it wasn't even slipping when I changed it. Granted, apples and oranges, but one doesn't track that car or push it 0-60.


There are certainly ways to maximize your clutch wear, like keeping RPM's to the absolute minimum needed to move the car when shifting without lugging the engine. But during fast acceleration or tracking that's impossible to regulate with consistency.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I took my driving licence test on a standard, and I was taught to drive on a standard, and I think I know clutches and shifting pretty well.
 
NSXGMS said:
There are certainly ways to maximize your clutch wear, like keeping RPM's to the absolute minimum needed to move the car when shifting without lugging the engine. But during fast acceleration or tracking that's impossible to regulate with consistency.
That "rule" has nothing to do with minimizing clutch wear (and I assume you're referring to minimizing, not maximizing clutch wear). To minimize clutch wear, as noted above, minimize your time in the clutch transition, and match revs.

The rule you're thinking of is, to minimize gas consumption, stay in the highest gear possible without lugging the engine, and shift as needed to do so. Which, of course, is the opposite of what you want to do for fast acceleration or tracking, where you want to be in the lowest gear possible without overrevving the engine, and where lugging is never a concern.
 
These issues have been discussed many times at great length. There haven't been any new developments since then. Please read some of these threads and the two Ojas linked to all the way through. Then if you still have questions, post a follow-up.

<a href="http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6679">How to extend clutch life?</a>

<a href="http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15189">Manual shift lesson</a>

<a href="http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2193">Question -- What, really, is double clutching, and how do I learn it?</a>

<a href="http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1813">Buying NSX: automatic or manual?</a>
 
I've always thought a driver who is skilled in the use of a clutch can launch the car from a stop on level ground without using the throttle pedal at all. Try it in your car and see.

Overall what makes a good driver on any control is the ability to modulate the control to your needs. In other words, if your throttle foot is either off the gas or buried to the floor you are not a smooth or sensitive driver as you have little ability to vary the position of the control to meet your or the vehicle's needs.

A good driver might have 10 steps between zero and wide open throttle. An excellent driver might be able to discern 100 steps. And a world champion like Ayrton Senna might have 1000 steps.

Note throttle control does not translate exactly to clutch control but you get the point.
 
W said:
I'd like to see proof that most of us think we are greatly skilled with a clutch as I think this is untrue. I'd also like to see the definition of great clutch skills.

lol, as guys if you asked any one of us i don't think u'd ever get the response i horrible with the clutch unless it was someone that didn't not drive a stick car. if you met any guy that has been driving stick for sometime I believe they would all say they are a lil above average. this is pure speculation but come on you its true haha

also the definition of great clutch skill is what im asking not what you should be asking me. and so far it seems the clutch skills also have to very much do with throttle control.
 
Soichiro said:
I've always thought a driver who is skilled in the use of a clutch can launch the car from a stop on level ground without using the throttle pedal at all. Try it in your car and see.

Too many variables in engines and clutches to make such a generality, but in fact doing that would be very simple for most people with a little effort. Unfortunately, their clutch wouldn't last very long because most would let it out very slowly to get a smooth take-off. That test is unnecessary and generally a bad idea as it perpetuates the wrong habits.
 
I also took my road test in a manual car and learned on one as well. All the cars I have ever owned have been manual except for the station wagon i had at one time and the new Acura TL S-Type. There are some people that just get better over time and there are others who cant seem to get the grasp of it no matter what.
 
W said:
I'd like to see proof that most of us think we are greatly skilled with a clutch as I think this is untrue. I'd also like to see the definition of great clutch skills.
Maybe you're more modest than the average bear. I suspect KulSecHskY's assertion is an extension from the notion that 65-76% of drivers believe their skills are above-average:

Svenson O (1981). Are we all less risky and more skilful than our fellow drivers? Acta Psychologica, 47, 143-148.

Summary: "Svenson had a group of subjects in two countries rank their own safety and driving skill relative to others in the group. Seventy-six percent of the drivers considered themselves as safer than the driver with median safety, and 65% of the drivers considered themselves more skilful than the driver with median skill."

I for one admit that I have driven clutches incorrectly for all my years of driving up til about a year ago. I thought I was doing well by smoothly taking off from a stop and not demanding the clutch and driveline instantly take load. Oops.

Tiger740 provided the following link in one of the linked-to threads above: Virtual Driving School

One problem is that maximizing clutch life presumes you have an engine with enough grunt to pull from ~800-1000 rpms once the driveline hooks up. This is true of the NSX but is untrue of, for example, my '99 Accord 2.3L i4. As you let the clutch out, you are accelerating while slipping the clutch. When the slippage stops, you need enough engine torque to pull away at that speed. If the engine is weaker, you need a higher rpm for full engagement and thus you are forced to slip the clutch.
 
Soichiro said:
I've always thought a driver who is skilled in the use of a clutch can launch the car from a stop on level ground without using the throttle pedal at all.

This is how I launch most of the time, with NO throttle and easy letting the clutch out. This is accelerating the wear on the clutch??

And a point on rev matching, if you're doing the standard shifting at 3k most times, is that rev matching pretty much? I know stupid questions but just gotta know.
 
The notion "preserving the clutch" seems to dominate this thread. But think about it- should that be the primary concern when driving a performance car? Let's face it, utilizing the potential of an NSX taxes many of the components, not only the clutch, but the tires, drive train and brakes. Some of the suggestions for insuring long clutch life (such as starting out at idle) for most of us are counter to enjoying the car. Sure, you could save your brakes by not stopping fast and your tires by going slow around corners, but what's the point? In the end, each of us will pay a price for how we get our smiles while driving our NSXs, and that's what ownership is all about.
 
Double clutching is (in my understanding of it), for those who have trouble with heel toe shifting. It's a must when you drive a car with no synchro's. You have to get the shafts to equal speed. This allows the shift collar to move onto the desired gear. Heel toe is only used on downshifts. There are many ways to do it. I personally use my foot in the verticle position, while most pro's use there their foot in a horizontal position. It really doesn't matter as long as you can get to the same outcome, which is to rev match the mainshaft and the countershaft to ease shifting when using the engine to brake. It helps to cool the brakes a bit, it saves your synchro's, and when mastered, can drop your lap times a bit because your not lollygaging between shifts.
I would much rather save the clutch by shifting into a gear quickly. Clutches are expensive. The tranny is strong enough to take a little bit of stress from a quick shift. (unless your in the snap ring range with a little more than average run out in the counter shaft). Then a quiet more subtle shift would be in order until it gets fixed.
Have fun out there guys,
Barn Man....
 
Barn Man said:
It helps to cool the brakes a bit...

I don't understand :confused:

I thought while heel toe shifting, you downshift the same time with braking. So, besides the mentioned benefits, you don't have to use the engine brake. What do you mean by cooling the brakes a bit?

Greetings,
Gerard
 
Last edited:
timothyaw said:
a point on rev matching, if you're doing the standard shifting at 3k most times, is that rev matching pretty much? I know stupid questions but just gotta know.
Not a stupid question.

Rev matching is adjusting the accelerator while shifting so that the engine revs don't change when you let out the clutch. The principle is the same regardless of whether you shift at redline (8000 RPM) or at 3000 RPM.

You can use the gear ratios from the FAQ to calculate the exact revs before and after shifting. For example, if you have a stock '91-94, and you upshift from 3000 RPM, here are the revs after you are done shifting:

1 --> 2 (at 17 mph) = 3000 * 1.727 / 3.071 = 1687 RPM
2 --> 3 (at 30 mph) = 3000 * 1.230 / 1.727 = 2137 RPM
3 --> 4 (at 43 mph) = 3000 * 0.967 / 1.230 = 2359 RPM
4 --> 5 (at 54 mph) = 3000 * 0.771 / 0.967 = 2392 RPM

Not that you are going to do these calculations when driving, of course; most experienced drivers can come pretty close to rev matching just by feel, by letting the revs drop by a fraction (say ~20-25 percent, on a sports car with fairly close ratios, like the NSX) before letting the clutch out.

As you can see from the figures above, if you are upshifting at 3000 RPM, and you let the revs drop to around 2300 RPM before letting the clutch out - but less than that for the 1 --> 2 shift (particularly on the five-speed) - you'll be pretty close to matching the revs.

Originally posted by Oldguy
The notion "preserving the clutch" seems to dominate this thread. But think about it- should that be the primary concern when driving a performance car?
Not necessarily. But I think it's something that most owners generally want to know. Whether they follow it will likely depend on the circumstances - just like using the brakes and tires and other parts on the car that are prone to wear (that us track folk like to think of as "consumables").

When I'm getting to the highway to drive up to Wisconsin, I try to shift in a way that minimizes clutch wear. But when I'm screaming into the hard braking zone at turn five at Road America, I'm concentrating on slowing the car down to the highest speed possible at which I can take the turn, and downshifting to prepare for the acceleration when exiting the turn. I'm not thinking about preserving the clutch friction material - although, as it happens, I am trying to match revs there, too, with a blip of the throttle, not to save the clutch but to complete the 4 --> 2 downshift as quickly as possible, so that I can get on the gas as soon as possible approaching the apex of the turn. So in this particular case, the technique that minimizes clutch wear - rev matching while minimizing the time spent shifting - also results in the highest performance possible. That may not be the case with brake pad wear or tire wear, but it is for clutch wear.
 
I would also suggest that at the track(road course), clutch life is extended with proper rev-matching during downshifts and upshifts.A lot of stress can be placed on clutch components when the engine is spinning at less rpm than the diff such is the result of lazy heel- toe and results in a rear wheel braking effect upon clutch engagement those twisting forces are transmitted and have to be dissipated somewhere-the weakest link.
 
Oldguy said:
The notion "preserving the clutch" seems to dominate this thread. But think about it- should that be the primary concern when driving a performance car? Let's face it, utilizing the potential of an NSX taxes many of the components, not only the clutch, but the tires, drive train and brakes. Some of the suggestions for insuring long clutch life (such as starting out at idle) for most of us are counter to enjoying the car. Sure, you could save your brakes by not stopping fast and your tires by going slow around corners, but what's the point? In the end, each of us will pay a price for how we get our smiles while driving our NSXs, and that's what ownership is all about.

When I take off in normal driving (which is most the time) I'm not looking to make the best 0-60 times. Trust me I get my spirited driving in after the launch. And yes I'm not afraid to redline it now and then :D So I do enjoy my car, but for everyday normal driving and stop and go, I'll try to preserve the clutch as much as possible.
 
Gerard van Santen said:
I don't understand :confused:

I thought while heel toe shifting, you downshift the same time with braking. So, besides the mentioned benefits, you don't have to use the engine brake. What do you mean by cooling the brakes a bit.

The engine will be braking along with the brakes. Make sense? I know this sounds a little confusing. Think about it like this, if you like to threshold brake, then heel toe shifting is a must. Like Ken said, this will prepare you to accelerate on or just before the apex of a turn. Your using both the brakes and the engine to slow the car if you approach it like this. With rev matching, your saving clutch life. It minimizes the amount of time the disk spends slipping on the flywheel/pressure plate while changing gears. The reason I said you really only need to do this on downshifts is because MOST of the time when your accelerating, your not really spending a lot of time between gears. If you have a lightened flywheel, you should even try to shift quicker or you will have to blip to keep the r's up. I've noticed a major difference since putting a 8.8 lb. roadrace flywheel in my integra. I have to shift quicker or blip even on upshifts. The lowered amount of momentum from the lighter flywheel lets the motor slow down faster than the factory 18 lb flywheel on the teggie. Sorry to get off the main subject but it kinda goes hand in hand. It's a 6 degree thing of sorts.
Have a great week all,
Barn Man...
 
I think there's a point missing here. And that point is related to "how many of us are really good at shifting?" and "what is the definition of good shifting?", the two questions that repeatedly arise in this and related topics.

Here's the point: Most of us were probably TAUGHT to shift to maximize the smoothness of the shift, when we were learning how to drive with a manual transmission. A smooth shift - doing it so that there is no perceptible jerk to the car - means a longer time that the clutch is in the transition zone (sweet spot) between engaged and disengaged (out and in). We were probably taught this way because it feels better, particularly to those who are accustomed to the smooth shifts of an automatic transmission. Another reason may be that when you're learning how to shift, a smoother shift means avoiding stalling the car, which is a common error of beginners who haven't learned to feel for the sweet spot or who aren't aware of the progressive action of the clutch within that sweet spot. Whatever the reason, though, most of us were taught to do smooth shifts - which is the worst thing for the life of the clutch, as Gary noted earlier.

As it happens, the best way to shift for maximizing clutch life is also the best way to shift for performance: minimizing the transition time and matching revs. The way so many of us were taught, extending the transition time, maximizes smoothness and comfort, but at the expense of clutch life and performance. Maybe it's still the method of choice if you have your grandmother or your non-enthusiast boss in the car with you. But not when you're trying to maximize clutch life or performance.
 
nsxtasy> Whatever the reason, though, most of us were taught to do smooth shifts - which is the worst thing for the life of the clutch, as Gary noted earlier.

You're confusing smooth shifting with riding the clutch. It does not matter if your focus is on performance or if its on smoothness, the action is still the same -- a good driver will know how to shift without using the synchros, and this is done by rev-matching.

When you learn to follow the above, you'll have no problem driving stick.. even WITHOUT a clutch.
 
old_S13 said:
You're confusing smooth shifting with riding the clutch.
No, I'm not. The two are totally different.

Riding the clutch refers to partially or completely disengaging the clutch when you are not shifting, when the car is already in the gear you have selected. That is certainly a bad practice for clutch wear.

Smooth shifting can be accomplished two different ways - with absolutely precise rev matching, and/or with a somewhat longer time in the transition zone of the clutch when shifting (say, 2-3 seconds rather than a half a second or less). While precise rev matching is always a good thing, a longer time in the transition is not.
 
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