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NSX Modified Turbo - Pics & Movies

Joined
30 July 2001
Messages
111
Location
Sunset Beach, CA
Just got back from the NSX SoCal meet tonight, where Larry from NSX Modified was showing off his new turbo kit. This kit is aimed to provide ~365hp, while only costing around $5000 or so for the base model. There are going to be several options, which were discussed, on upgrades to the system for those that want total performance. But, as is, the turbo is aimed to be extremely practical, and not hinder the great day-to-day driving reliability of the NSX. The main goal is that once its installed, the turbo won't give you any problems.

I want to stress that the pictures I have of this are of a development version, and don't look anything as pretty as the final product will look. Larry is going to show something that looks much nicer next week at the Northern SoCal meeting.

Also, Ilya is posting a writeup tomorrow on all the specifics that Larry went over - so make sure and read through that. Ok, on to the pics & movies:

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Movies: http://kevin.funkandgroove.com/files/PA110002.MOV
http://kevin.funkandgroove.com/files/PA110003.MOV
http://kevin.funkandgroove.com/files/PA110004.MOV



[This message has been edited by bartonkt (edited 11 October 2001).]
 
Gee, did someone let loose the pythons and they all ended up in a NSX's engine bay? Seriously, Larry, please hide all those pipes.

------------------
G Dummy
 
Originally posted by maomaonsx:
Gee, did someone let loose the pythons and they all ended up in a NSX's engine bay? Seriously, Larry, please hide all those pipes.

Well, like I said above - this is a work in progress unit. Wait until the other model is shown next week, Larry said it wouldn't be nearly as ungainly. There should be pictures of that one posted sometime next week.

Say what you want about appearance, I watched this car chew up the road fairly impressively....and its not even fully tuned to perfection yet, not anywhere near close.
 
Suddenly the Bell kit looks a lot better. Even excusing the crude prototype execution, it doesn't look ideal. All the heat from the exhaust and the turbo trapped under the glass, and the intake drawing air from right there in the middle of it. Now picture trying to add an intercooler. And just too in-your-face for me.
 
You better start thinking about what to say to a cop when you get pulled over.
biggrin.gif
there's no hiding in this one!
 
OK guys, I finally have some time and will post some notes of what I was discussing. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to secure a tape recorder so I have to go off my notes. Next week I will have a video camera so I can get it word for word.
Before I start, I want to mention that the pics above are from Mavrik's car. As Kevin said, it is a work in progress and is not representative of the final product in terms of appearance. I want to thank him for taking myself and other attendees yesterday for test drives.
My impressions: Even with the setup being incomplete, running it's lowest level of boost, with an old, dying clutch, and the blowoff valve being constantly open, this car still pulled very hard. Considerably moreso than a Comptech SC. I can't wait for the finished car next Thursday. It will only get even faster.
smile.gif



First, Larry had an in depth explanation on why this setup, above the engine, is superior in many ways to having the turbos and piping under the car. I will tape it word for word next week and post that. From his comments, he sounded like it is beneficial in almost every way to have this above-the-engine design and that having them under the car is for stealth, but has MANY disadvantages. He went through them all. I will make sure to post that in detail when I can.
What is clear from yesterday, is that the final design will in fact be similar to the Gruppe M SC, in that some of the piping will be above the engine. The difference being it will be much cleaner than the pics above and closer to what you see with a Gruppe M SC.
If you must have stealth and have the engine bay look stock, this design is not for you.

Next, he made it clear that he supports leaving as much FACTORY STOCK as possible. Like Comptech, he uses the stock ECU for this setup. This is meant as a simple bolt-on compared to more advanced setups. His customers want to be in the shop once, have it installed, and never worry about it again. No stalling, no poor idle... he wants it trouble free and reliable. If you want more, you are welcome to use anything you like. At his shop yesterday, he also had a Vortec SC setup which has been done for over three years. It is highly tuned, using a split second box in the cabin, and has a water to air intercooler (with a nice chrome reservior in the trunk
biggrin.gif
).
This base setup is meant as a 'plug and play.' It will keep everything STOCK. All tuning is done manually by him. No changes are made to the stock ECU. Think this produces poor results. I surmise that the reason he is able to get such results with such minimal tuning is his level of experience and having done so many in the past. See the scans in my next post.

Next, because of his particular design, you may retain your current exhaust. Any stock or aftermarket exhaust will work with the setup. Also, will tap into factory or aftermarket headers.

Some details:
RC Injectors- 320s ???
Factory fuel pressure regulator
Manual timing retard -4 degrees
HKS Blowoff Valve
Internal wastegate at 6lbs
Split Second Box- voltage sensor
option for water to air intercooler
Includes AF gauge, fuel pressure gauge, and boost gauge
365rwhp with factory ECU

It would be great if he could log on and reply to some of the inquiries. I'll give him a call today and see if he can do this. At the least, I will have him explain again what the benefits are of the design and post it.

Another post coming next w/ scans from some sheets he gave me. Something from a TurboPower Java Calculator until he can have the actual dyno sheets for us next week.
 
Originally posted by ilya:
No changes are made to the stock ECU. Think this produces poor results. I surmise that the reason he is able to get such results with such minimal tuning is his level of experience and having done so many in the past.

Just wanted to point out that no one needs to make changes to the stock ECU for any of these Under-450hp kits that are available for the NSX. The NSX takes quite well to low levels of boost, tuning is not very difficult.

I haven't tuned a single NSX Turbo or SC in the past, yet it took me about 30 minutes (!) the first time to get within 95% of the fuel curve I ultimately settled on for my NSX twin turbo (Bell-based).

Don't get me wrong... I'm glad to hear there's another forced induction setup coming out for the NSX. But the truth is that everyone's using all the same sort of stuff for adding fuel when boost comes on and that the factory ECU will do just fine no matter what the kit. It's to everyone's advantage to keep the stock ECU since it runs the engine just fine when not under boost, and keeping it stock is 1 less expense to have...

"From his comments, he sounded like it is beneficial in almost every way to have this above-the-engine design and that having them under the car is for stealth, but has MANY disadvantages."

As for turbo placement.. From an exhaust-energy point of view, without a doubt it's better to have a turbo close to the engine. Of course, you could still be giving back horsepower if the intake of the turbo is starting with hotter air than it would otherwise have.

Here's the thing though.. At the end of the day, (reliability aside) that's all that matters is the power you get (torque curve), and how responsive the engine is. So, whether a turbo should in theory be placed in the engine compartment or not, it's really just the end results that matter.

Having the Aerodynes (Bell TT kit) far away from the engine (behind the rear wheels) definitely ain't the most efficient use of exhaust energy. Thing is though, between being a ball-bearing turbo and having variable-pitch vanes, they pretty much make up for being further away. Plus you gain the benefit of not having a turbo or turbos plus extra exhaust piping inside the engine compartment heating things up (or causing you to lose your engine cover/targa top holder). Aerodyne's are self-lubricated too, so they're not sharing & heating up the engine oil (or engine coolant).

I'm honestly not trying to knock the kit (or anyone), like I said, assuming reliability is there that's all that's really going to matter is how it performs in spite of how the setup should theoretically work or not work. But I want to make sure all methods are represented.. You guys should already know by now that if someone's going to knock a Bell kit, I will speak up. I won't hesitate to admit its weaknesses but it has a lot of strengths as well.

Best,
Marc

[This message has been edited by SpeedDemon (edited 12 October 2001).]
 
I would echo everything Marc just posted, with emphasis. Well said.

I would add that some of the losses in the Bell kit can be reduced by wrapping the exhaust. Also, part of what the Bell kit gives up in efficiency is due to the turbos coming after the cats, but that also means the cats can do their job and not screw up your emissions or fail themselves due to low operating temps. Will Larry smog test his?

One thing I didn't understand though. If you can use aftermarket headers, then the exhaust plumbing must actually be very long. Perhaps it even starts after the cats, but then what about from there back? Something doesn't sound right unless there is some very long and fancy plumbing.

As for the intake side, I agree that it would be nice to have the turbo closer to the intake manifold on the Bell kit, but as Marc says, the end result is what counts. Fact is, the Bell kit can be made to push HP right up to the safe limits of the stock block, and it builds boost fast enough that I doubt a "normal" single turbo can do any better even with the shorter tubes.

All that said, if your only parameters are HP and $, Larry's kit shows a lot of promise.
 
You know.. I like that "pipes up in the hatch look" of this and other kits [gruppeM]. If you polish it up, and add some aesthetics, your talking high levels of intimidation. As for the targa comment, i just throw my targa top in the trunk. I haven't had my engine cover on for almost 3 months now.
 
Hey! How long before you make it back to LA?

duh... just read your sig. See you in Jan.

I agree that it's a thin line when installing tubing above the engine. It can look terrible or beatiful (IMO) depending on how it is done. I think Alex V's Gruppe M setup is the best looking and most impressive NSX engine bay I have ever seen.

[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 12 October 2001).]
 
I have a concern for those of us on the east coast. If the only way Larry will sell his kit is installed(so he flys over and installs it), then what happens when it needs something serviced? I deffinetly cant be flying Larry to the east coast every time I need a tune up. I feel that there is a number of shops in my area that could do this install. service on the unit would be much easier if a local shop originally installed it. I understand he is stating that his unit will be plug and play(service free)but I am never that lucky and something always breaks. I hope he will re-think the sales of this unit into a broader perspective(maybe give a different warranty for units not installed by his team).
someone please relay this thought to Larry at the next meeting. thanks

[This message has been edited by SNDSOUL (edited 12 October 2001).]
 
That's a good point. I will probably be there this Saturday and will ask.
I guess he needs to make an instruction manual.
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If it did have problems, it's his design. Nobody else would have seen it before and know how it works or what to do.
Is it any different for something like a Gruppe M SC. How many people around the country know how to effectively install and tune it? Anybody have a creative solution?
 
Here's a diffferent question. If I were to get a system like this installed, what would my poor local NSX mechanic think the next time I went in for a scheduled tune-up? Would he be able to do it? Or do I need to line-up a mechanic that could do scheduled maintance on this before getting it installed? I guess the same question can be asked about the available SC options.
 
East coast, west coast... Cripes! I live in Ohio. If I have to drive out and give up my car for a week, we're talking serious time and $ involved. This is probably the only reason I'm looking forward to the new supercharger more than Larry's turbo setup. Guess it would just be cheaper to sell my house and move to California so my car can get treated like it deserves.

[This message has been edited by Juice (edited 12 October 2001).]
 
Originally posted by ilya:
...If it did have problems, it's his design. Nobody else would have seen it before and know how it works or what to do.
Is it any different for something like a Gruppe M SC. How many people around the country know how to effectively install and tune it? Anybody have a creative solution?

Guys, this isn't rocket science! His "design" has almost nothing to do with tuning. The key is whatever auxiliary fuel injector controller you use, and ideally that should be a common one used by lots of other systems so there is a large knowledge base. You just need someone who knows that controller and how to dial it in on a turbo system. The other issues will not present a problem for any experienced turbo tuner, or even a relative novice with the right equipment such as fuel/air meter etc.

Back to the system design, the main thing is selecting the correct turbo, both intake and exhaust sides are critical in terms of sizing and impeller design. The plumbing is mostly common sense limited by space. I'm sure Larry is great, but from what I've seen and heard he's not doing anything even remotely new or unusual for this kit.
 
Originally posted by sjs:
Guys, this isn't rocket science! His "design" has almost nothing to do with tuning. The key is whatever auxiliary fuel injector controller you use, and ideally that should be a common one used by lots of other systems so there is a large knowledge base. You just need someone who knows that controller and how to dial it in on a turbo system. The other issues will not present a problem for any experienced turbo tuner, or even a relative novice with the right equipment such as fuel/air meter etc.

this is my point, why only sell it installed? I know plenty of people capable of this install. several of my friends are running turbo setups(aftermarket) with no problems.

off subject, the Dali/Basch supercharger is very nice looking. I wonder if it will have a 6lb pulley as an option?
 
>His "design" has almost nothing to do with
>tuning. The key is whatever auxiliary fuel
>injector controller you use, and ideally
>that should be a common one used by lots of
>other systems so there is a large knowledge
>base.

Based on the list of items in the kit, there is no aux fuel injector. Only bigger injectors and probably higher fuel pressure. So some tuning will be required.

Does anyone know what the "Split Second Box- voltage sensor" is for?

------------------
Zublin Engineering
http://www.zublin.com
 
Originally posted by BryanZublin:
Based on the list of items in the kit, there is no aux fuel injector. Only bigger injectors and probably higher fuel pressure. So some tuning will be required.

Does anyone know what the "Split Second Box- voltage sensor" is for?

Well, the list was by Ilya who was trying to work from recall and has a limited understanding of such things (as he openly admits, so that should not be interpreted as a slam). He also says the stock FPR is used. So even if there are no additional injectors, some form of controller is probably required to get the mixture correct. (Perhaps the Split Second Box?) Given what you have to work with, that's the only real "tuning" you could do. I'm thinking that the Split Second Box is a variable voltage DC-DC regulator which increases vlotage to fuel pump according to boost and/or RPM (having removed the stock resistor). That, plus larger injectors may be suffucient for this type of system if your stock pump is up to the task.

Speculation, speculation. Fun, but not very productive. Hopefully we'll get the fact soon.
 
To echo what sjs said.. A competent "tuner" mechanic should be able to handle the install and tuning of a forced induction kit even if he hasn't done that particular one before.

There's a couple reasons to force that an installation accompany a kit sale.. The biggest is probably warranty & the idiot-factor.. Some people try to install kits themselves, or get a mechanic who doesn't know what he is doing. Then they go do something wrong, run too lean, blow their engine, and all the blame is placed on the guy who made the kit.

I could understand a kit-seller wanting to make sure they install all initial kits for that very reason. But I'd also expect that as time went on, and the kit-seller had a lot of experience with how to tune the install, they could set their kit up to make it start off rich or otherwise be a little more idiot proof, and would then be able to sell it w/o an install.

The second reason for tieing the kit + install together is $$.. If your margins aren't as high as you want on the parts, installation is a good way to make profit.

Bryan - I wonder about that too (Split Sec "voltage" box). I had heard that Larry was going to include an ignition timing controller (I prototyped that with Split Second for the NSX). So, possibly it could be an igition-retard controller. Only other things I could think of it being relating to voltage would be for increasing volts to the fuel pump, or limiting them for the MAP sensor.

Marc


[This message has been edited by SpeedDemon (edited 13 October 2001).]
 
At first glance I thought it was a roll bar for the engine then somthing out of gunkyard war's. I do a lot of prototype work on my car and I can appreciate all the work that Larry put into this project. My main concern is the heat buildup on top of the engine and around the exhaust lines with no shielding . I would be worried about my tempered glass being that close to the turbo. Please tell me this is phase one of the developement of the prototype not the finished kit!!!!!
 
The Split Second stuff can be seen at: http://www.Splitsec.com/

I don't see anything to vary voltage to the fuel pump according to boos/RPM, so I guess they're talking about the timing controller. However, the notes somewhere (above?) said that was simple a manual retard of 4 degrees. Also, they only list the timing unit for 94+ Acuras, so I'm not at all sure.

You out there Larry?
 
If it helps, when he mentioned split second, he said it was a very simple piece and his explanation had to do with regulating voltage somehow.
He does the retard manually like he did for my NOS setup.
 
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