BBSC questions

[MvM]

The BBSC-website shows a nice graph on the power-development of the car but I would like to see some additional information.
Since the BBSC is a unit than can be 'switched off' quite easy (or so the site tells me) what I would like to see is a comparison of the same car with and without the BBSC engaged.
For both cases I would like to see the Dyno-results but also, the acceleration times for, let's say, 0-150 mph.
After all, it's not just the mere extra power the BBSC gives us that people are looking for but it is what it will make the NSX dDO that counts for us as drivers.

Of course, additionally, it would be nice to have a sort of 'shoot-out' between the now-in-production BBSC and comparable units like the Gruppe-M and Comptech Supercharger.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

The BBSC-website shows a nice graph on the power-development of the car but I would like to see some additional information.
Since the BBSC is a unit than can be 'switched off' quite easy (or so the site tells me) what I would like to see is a comparison of the same car with and without the BBSC engaged.
For both cases I would like to see the Dyno-results but also, the acceleration times for, let's say, 0-150 mph.
After all, it's not just the mere extra power the BBSC gives us that people are looking for but it is what it will make the NSX dDO that counts for us as drivers.

Of course, additionally, it would be nice to have a sort of 'shoot-out' between the now-in-production BBSC and comparable units like the Gruppe-M and Comptech Supercharger.

I dont believe the unit can be "switched off"

 

[MvM]

MiamieNeSeX

I don't literally mean 'switched off' like you can have a dashboard swith to turn on/off the BBSC but to quote directly from the BBSC-website:

"Unlike other supercharger systems for the NSX, the car may be run with the supercharger bypassed."

Which means to me that, for a Dyno, you can disengage the BBSC. Or, in case of a belt-failure en route you would be able with little work to disengage the BBSC and still continue the journey (which could be very worthwhile, depending on the situation).

 

[KGP]

..I would like to see the Dyno-results but also, the acceleration times for, let's say, 0-150 mph.
... it would be nice to have a sort of 'shoot-out' between the now-in-production BBSC and comparable units like the Gruppe-M and Comptech Supercharger.

sjs and I will get around to that (bbsc v comptech) sometime. Steve suggested using the G Cube in order to come up with some real-world results and comparisons. I'm checking into the 'upgrade' of my beta BBSC right now. So, maybe when I get that done it will be the time to compare.

 

[NSXTC]

A few of us had a little shoot-out the other night. '94 9lb Novi 2000 BBSC vs '91 CTSC vs '00 CTSC (both std boost). It was the BBSC hands down. Probably not fair because both of the CTSC's were standard 6 lb kits. However, (despite the fact of how we all hate to hear anectdotal evidence I have owned both the 6 lb CTSC, the "9" lb CTSC, and the BBSC. The "9" lb CTSC only gets ya about 20 HP+20 ft-lbs over the 6 lb standard CTSC, and still will not pull on the BBSC. It has better low-end grunt up to about 4,000 RPM or so, but after that, the BBSC will walk away.... I can pretty much guarantee that's what will happen.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Hi Maarten,

I understand what you are asking but I do not think it is that easy. The reference to "disabling" the SC really relates to the packaging design, in that it retains the stock alternator position, so an original alternator belt can be reinstalled, if for some reason you needed to disable the SC setup, for example to get home, if something went wrong.

If you look at the setup, I think without the SC belt driving the SC it would not be the same performance as not having it at all, due to the SC presenting an obstacle for the intake air flow.

So I do not think you could compare before/after this way, if this is what you were considering.

My $.02,

LarryB

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Injectors would also have to be changed as well as disabling the EMS.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

MiamieNeSeX

I don't literally mean 'switched off' like you can have a dashboard swith to turn on/off the BBSC but to quote directly from the BBSC-website:

"Unlike other supercharger systems for the NSX, the car may be run with the supercharger bypassed."

Which means to me that, for a Dyno, you can disengage the BBSC. Or, in case of a belt-failure en route you would be able with little work to disengage the BBSC and still continue the journey (which could be very worthwhile, depending on the situation).

You would be able to run it without the SC, I dont beleive you would get any Dyno runs worth comparing though, as you would still have the EMS and larger injectors , also the intake would have to be changed

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by MiamieNeSeX Injectors would also have to be changed as well as disabling the EMS.

Not true. The engine will run just fine with the SC disengaged without having to change the fuel injectors or EMS. It is the same as driving with the SC installed and never creating boost.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Not true. The engine will run just fine with the SC disengaged without having to change the fuel injectors or EMS. It is the same as driving with the SC installed and never creating boost.

So you would run the car on a Dyno with the SC disabled?Would you get the same numbers as if you ran the car with stock injectors and stock EMS?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Actually no, but the ECU will be capable of running fine and will compensate for the larger injectors, when the engine is off boost. (It is actually not a compensation at all since the ECU will already consider the injector size in the installed fuel map.)

But the situation is not the same, since you have this big supercharger sitting there still in the intake airstream. Not good for a valid before/after test of any system. It would seem to me your non-FI dyno run would be lower then the original setup, if this were attempted.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[MvM]

Ok, the comment have been clear then.
Well, in that case we just need a (more or less) stock NSX without the BBSC to compary a BBSCed-NSX with. Extra nice would be to throw in a slightly modified NSX with exhaust and headers.
But I would like to suggest using a AP-22 acceleration meter instead of a G-cube or G-tech Pro. The AP-22 will give you the ability to set any acceleration speed you care to care to measure up to 500 km/hour (or miles if you wish) with intervals of either 10mph or 10 km/h (or any in-between acceleration times). This of course including the quarter-mile run.

I think I'm am not the only one interested in this.
Or am I

 

[sjs]

...But I would like to suggest using a AP-22 acceleration meter instead of a G-cube or G-tech Pro. The AP-22 will give you the ability to set any acceleration speed you care to care to measure up to 500 km/hour (or miles if you wish) with intervals of either 10mph or 10 km/h (or any in-between acceleration times). This of course including the quarter-mile run.

The G-Cube is far superior to that. It can log acceleration in G's, which is the true real-world test, 20 times per second. From that the software calculates the rest between any points in terms of speed or distance. One of the huge benefits about it and similar products is that you don't need to launch the car to measure rate of acceleration in any gear at any speed. "How hard it pulls" is right there in front of you.

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

Or we can build our own with the right one of these:

Accelerometer IC's

 

[kpond]

Hey Lud,

In a related thread you acknowledged that you may have seen some dyno charts of the Novi2000 demonstrating better low-end power (torque) than the Novi1000 systems. Every data point that I have shows the systems being equal and potentially a slight nod to the Novi1000's perhaps because there are a few well-tuned ones out now.

Regarding the dyno curve on the new BBSC site and assuming it is from the new Novi2000 configuration, it is nearly identical to the Novi1000 graphs posted here occasionally.

I am just wondering if you or anyone else has anything which shows the Novi2000 advantages over the 1000??

 

[MvM]

sjs,

It seems I was mistaken about the G-Cube. It does the same thing as the AP-22, which also records G-forces.
The link to it's specs is here:
http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage/Products/Accelerometer/ac22/Ac22Introduction.html

 

[sjs]

... Regarding the dyno curve on the new BBSC site and assuming it is from the new Novi2000 configuration, it is nearly identical to the Novi1000 graphs posted here occasionally.

I am just wondering if you or anyone else has anything which shows the Novi2000 advantages over the 1000??

This is largely speculation, but I would think that given the same pulley the 1000 might in fact look a little better down low than the 2000. The way to get more low-end is to reduce pulley size so that the SC spins up to positive pressure at a lower engine RPM. However, that may then push the high end of the 1000 beyond peak efficiency, so you switch to the 2000 which pushes more air per revolution. Now you can better balance the need for CFM at low RPM and still have the compressor working efficiently at the high end. If that puts you over your desired max boost then you bleed off the excess, as they are also doing. I suppose the 2000 may have minor disadvantages of it's own such as higher parasitic losses or being somewhat less efficient at the lower levels, but it all comes down to finding the compromises that yield the best overall result.

I think that's what they've been working towards but we haven't seen any solid results just yet. One complication is that most of those with the 2000 also changed pistons to lower compression. A good idea if they want to run the higher max boost as well as improving the low end, but it does cloud simple comparisons to the "base" design.

 

[ANYTIME]

A few of us had a little shoot-out the other night. '94 9lb Novi 2000 BBSC vs '91 CTSC vs '00 CTSC (both std boost). It was the BBSC hands down. Probably not fair because both of the CTSC's were standard 6 lb kits. However, (despite the fact of how we all hate to hear anectdotal evidence I have owned both the 6 lb CTSC, the "9" lb CTSC, and the BBSC. The "9" lb CTSC only gets ya about 20 HP+20 ft-lbs over the 6 lb standard CTSC, and still will not pull on the BBSC. It has better low-end grunt up to about 4,000 RPM or so, but after that, the BBSC will walk away.... I can pretty much guarantee that's what will happen.

Marc.... I think you are stretching this a bit. If Craig and myself knew you were going to race, you should have said 1-2-3-go(or something), rather than taking off and us following suit. I seem to recall I was directly behind you(I saw a big cloud of smoke when you punched it-stinky too?) and Craig was beside you, then I was in chase. You remember I ended up next to you on the left? How is that "hands down"? From my vantage point. it seems like I caught you AND passed you(from being directly behind you, to ending up passing you on the left). If you want to have a competition, please inform others they are involved and can be ready. I'm sure others would like to know how SC's compare on a level playing field.

 

[Lud]

kpond - I said the graph on the baschboost.com website shows stronger low-end than other BBSC dynos I had seen, which were pretty much identical to the stock power curve under ~5000 RPM. The graph on the web site shows an increase over stock in the lower RPM range.

I know many of those cars I saw dynos for previously were not fully tuned, such as the ones in the NSteXpo 2002 dyno day http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/images/NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf

So the reason that those cars were essentially making stock power below ~5000 RPM may very well be that they were just not tuned properly. And maybe an equally tuned 1000 system does have the same low end power (or more) compared to the 2000 graph on the baschboost.com site. I just haven't seen such a dyno sheet yet. Does anyone have a dyno to share from a fully tuned Novi 1000 car without other extensive mods?

 

[Craig]

Marc, your kidding right? I had already put my car back in 4th when you took off! I barely even stomped on it and did not down shift...I figured you knew that when you shot away from me like I was standing still!

Really though, kill stories??

 

[NSXTC]

So you guys werent 100%??? Weren't ready??? Ive heard all the excuses before!!! LOL!!!!

Youre killing me!!! We need to try again then...! (and document it for the list)

Marc, your kidding right? I had already put my car back in 4th when you took off! I barely even stomped on it and did not down shift...I figured you knew that when you shot away from me like I was standing still!

Really though, kill stories??

 

[ANYTIME]

So you guys werent 100%??? Weren't ready??? Ive heard all the excuses before!!! LOL!!!!

Youre killing me!!! We need to try again then...! (and document it for the list)

100%? Yes, 100% passed you. Even Craig said I blew by both of you. NEXT

 

[Sig]

Do a replay.

Start from the same rpm level, say 3K and see what happens.

I think there would be a good deal of interest in the outcome.

Report back.

 

[nsxpowered]

Hello All!!! again

it would be nice if they had 0-60 / 0-150 etc stats, but the equipment is likely too much to justify the curiousity. Finally got my BBSC looked at and apparently I had the first prototype fuel mapping and never updated it. I bet that's the reason why my low end wasn't so perky. Anyways, whenever Mark is ready with the new upgrade I'll surely be there to fix the low end problem!! The NOVI2000 will have fully boost at lower rpm. Still a better deal then the CTSC when I add all the cost, plus you get the blow off valve. Forgive me if I don't reply timely. I rarely come to forums to chat, as I'm finding most of my time organizing.

 

[kpond]

nsxpowered,

I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point. MB and a few others are claiming that the Novi2000 improves low-end performance on the BBSC. I say MB is wrong (God forbid!) and furthermore there's not one single shred of evidence that shows that the Novi2000 has ANY benefits over the Novi1000. Furthermore, the evidence currently would lead an objective person to the opposite conclusion. The BBSC cars that are running the best dyno numbers (area under the curve) as well as peak HP (403 RWHP) are the Novi1000 owners. Additionally, those who have paid for the whole enchilada - low compression motor, Novi2000, aftercooler, etc have YET to produce a single dyno chart that is AS GOOD as a non-modified motor with a Novi1000.

The Novi2000 THEORY is snake oil... I'm growing tired of the deception.

Lest anyone misinterpret my frustration, it is not at all about my config vs yours, etc. It is about honesty, integrity, deception... and the bottom line that new prospective buyers have exactly the right expectations about what they will and won't get. Been there, done that - not fun - not inexpensive to correct.