Track Cost/Price

[TigerNSX]

Hello,

If you were to regularly attend the track events held by SCDA, trackmasters, or BMWCCA, what would be the approximate cost (per year) associated with maintenance of your car, attending the events, and etc.?

To be more specific, if I were to attend 5 events, what would be the minimum budget that I should be thinking of?

I assume that the track events will cost anywhere from $200-$300. So that gives me $1000-$1500 for 5 events.

How much should I expect for other things that I should take into consideration? Brake pads?? Tires??

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[nsxtasy]

I would use these figures as the typical cost per two-day HPDE event (e.g. BMW CCA):

Registration $350/event

Brake Pads - $100/event parts, $50/event labor if you don't DIY (assumes $200 parts plus $100 labor per set of pads, 3-4 events per front set, 4-5 events per rear set)

Tires - $30 (assumes 1/20th of a set of rear tires plus 1/40th of a set of fronts)

Gas for track use - $27 (assumes 10 mpg, 150 track miles, $1.80/gallon)

Gas and tolls to/from track - depends on distance

Lodging - $130 (assumes 2 nights @ $65/night including tax)

Meals - depends on how well you like to eat

Total - around $700-800 per event, $3500-4000 for 5 events

Obviously, there are ways in which you can save - cheaper hotels, sharing hotel rooms, etc...

 

[2slow2speed]

Gas for track use - $27 (assumes 10 mpg, 150 track miles, $1.80/gallon)

10 mpg

I don't get anywhere close to that mileage at the track on my NSX. My average is probably around 6 mpg or 7 mpg tops...
I can't think that my spoiler is causing that much drag..

 

[Nimbus]

A new set of brake pads usually lasts me 5-6 events for the fronts, and 10+ for the rears...

of course usage is driver dependent...

 

[nsxtasy]

10 mpg

I don't get anywhere close to that mileage at the track on my NSX. My average is probably around 6 mpg or 7 mpg tops...

I was just pulling numbers off the top of my head. I think mine is more typically 9 mpg. But even if it's 6 mpg, that would only change it from $27 to $45.

Originally posted by Nimbus
A new set of brake pads usually lasts me 5-6 events for the fronts, and 10+ for the rears...

Then you're not driving the car as hard as you could... (Right, Ken?)

 

[RP-Motorsports]

10 mpg

I don't get anywhere close to that mileage at the track on my NSX. My average is probably around 6 mpg or 7 mpg tops...
I can't think that my spoiler is causing that much drag..

Ken sets his cruise @ 120 down the straights

 

[ncdogdoc]

Ken sets his cruise @ 120 down the straights

That is priceless!!!!


Ken (2slow2speed)- remember to turn off the A/C

 

[Lud]

I would add these three, prices for which will vary a lot depending on if you DIY, how often you do the fluids, and if you use synthetic oil.

Oil changes
Brake fluid
Tech inspections

I believe 2slow2speed's estimate of fuel economy is is pretty typical. Though I've never done a survey, most folks I've talked to reported 6 - 8.

Certain mods may affect these estimates (e.g. big brake kit, oversize/more expensive/racing tires, etc.)

You are also using many parts of the car harder than if you were just cruising around town, and thus will generally accelerate the wear and tear on a number of parts beyond the regular "consumables" like tires and brake components. This is pretty hard to quantify without a large sample and a detailed survey though.

P.S. I tried to set cruise control at a very high rate of speed one time with my '91 "just to see" and it didn't work. Possibly a vacuum issue? I never really looked into it. It may be possible to get it working at 120 MPH if you weren't accelerating too hard.

 

[2slow2speed]

Ken sets his cruise @ 120 down the straights

LOL.... Tom, maybe the Forums Nazi knows wether or not the Cruise control can even be set that high

That is priceless!!!!
Ken (2slow2speed)- remember to turn off the A/C

Gary, I do turn off the A/C , hehe

However I must admit that I listen to CD's while driving at the track without passengers or instructors, it helps me relax and get in the zone

It's amazing how much abuse the stock CD changer can take, I have not been able to make it skip while cornering so far. I guess that in your case you probably need to resort to an Ipod since there is no stereo on the "track rat"

 

[2slow2speed]

So far the following parts have been replaced on my NSX because of wear and tear from the track (I'm skipping the usual parts that were listed by the rest of the folks):

Brake Master Cylinder (leakage)
Clutch Master Cylinder (leakage)
O2 sensor (Don't quite know the cause, but I suspect fuel starvation while taking a high speed turn, that's when it went out)
Right Tie Rod (all of those berms..)

In addition my NSX mechanic recommends that the valves be checked a bit more frequently than the intervals recommended in the service manual.

Ken

 

[TigerNSX]

Thank you so much for your time, guys!!

 

[nsxtasy]

remember to turn off the A/C

Yes, of course. Depending on the ambient temperature, I sometimes leave the fan on, with the A/C OFF setting.

Originally posted by Lud
I would add these three, prices for which will vary a lot depending on if you DIY, how often you do the fluids, and if you use synthetic oil.

Oil changes
Brake fluid
Tech inspections

The other thing to include in your calculation is the incremental cost. In other words, what you're asking here is not how much it costs for all your maintenance, but rather, how much extra it costs to go on the track, and for each track event.

For example, let's say someone with a daily driver gets his brake fluid flushed every two years, for $10 of brake fluid plus $80 of labor. And let's say someone who takes his car to the track April-October gets his brake fluid flushed every spring, for $30 of high-temperature brake fluid plus $80 of labor. That means that, because of trackig the car, he is paying $110 every year instead of $90 every other year, so the incremental cost of taking the car to the track is $130 every two years, or $65 a year. In this example, the cost is the same, whether he does one track event per year, or five, or ten. Call it $13/event if you want to average it over five events a year.

The same thing is true for oil changes. If your track use doesn't change the frequency of your oil changes - for example, if you're getting the oil changed every 3-4 months regardless of whether you go to the track or not - then there is no incremental cost of taking the car to the track, in terms of oil changes.

As for tech inspections, they are often done for free - particularly if you take it to your regular mechanic.

For me, the incremental cost of these items is insignificant, in terms of coming up with an estimate for how much it costs to track the car. What I mean by "insignificant" is, if I told someone that tracking the car is going to cost $700-800, and I found out that I left out an item that averages out to $10/event, I am not going to call him up and say, "Wait! I told you it was $700-800, but I miscalculated - it's really $710-810, and I am soooo sorry about my error." Granted, if you find that there are a couple dozen things for $10/event each, the overall estimate can be significantly affected - but not for one or two.

Originally posted by Lud
I believe 2slow2speed's estimate of fuel economy is is pretty typical. Though I've never done a survey, most folks I've talked to reported 6 - 8.

Certain mods may affect these estimates (e.g. big brake kit, oversize/more expensive/racing tires, etc.)

Gearing, too. But considering that we're talking about swings of at most $10-15, it's again insignificant - not enough to worry about in coming up with an overall estimate of the cost of tracking the car.

Originally posted by 2slow2speed
However I must admit that I listen to CD's while driving at the track without passengers or instructors

You are not the only one.

Originally posted by 2slow2speed
So far the following parts have been replaced on my NSX because of wear and tear from the track (I'm skipping the usual parts that were listed by the rest of the folks):

Brake Master Cylinder (leakage)
Clutch Master Cylinder (leakage)
O2 sensor (Don't quite know the cause, but I suspect fuel starvation while taking a high speed turn, that's when it went out)
Right Tie Rod (all of those berms..)

I haven't had any of those problems. However, I had a wheel bearing replaced. I forget how much that cost - a few hundred bucks, maybe? - divided by ~75 track events in that car, and it's not enough to worry about.

Originally posted by 2slow2speed
In addition my NSX mechanic recommends that the valves be checked a bit more frequently than the intervals recommended in the service manual.

Considering that the recommended intervals are already relatively frequent - 15K miles or 12 months, whichever comes first - I'm not convinced that you need to do so even more frequently than that. How often do you have yours checked, Ken? More often than once a year?

 

[2slow2speed]

Considering that the recommended intervals are already relatively frequent - 15K miles or 12 months, whichever comes first - I'm not convinced that you need to do so even more frequently than that. How often do you have yours checked, Ken? More often than once a year?

I have the valves checked about every 10~11K miles.

I might be on the extreme end though, since most of the mileage on the NSX is from going/returning from the track + track miles.

I try to look out for the usual stuff myself when I change the oil, brake fluid, etc. but I have the car teched about every 2 months by Foreign Affair, to make sure that the car is fully inspected, so maybe I am a being a bit cautious.

Ken

 

[Soichiro]

Track Day / Air Conditioning Story

Originally posted by ncdogdoc
>>remember to turn off the A/C

Some time ago some NSXers were enjoying a track day at Road Atlanta. It was July or August and very hot here in Georgia. After our run group came into the pits everyone was worried about heat build up - the Corvette guys opened their hoods, the Porsche guys had some fans to blow over their engines and the Mazda guys looked at the puddles under their car. I walked over to the silver 91 in my group and asked nsxnut "Do you have the air conditioning on" because I was using it non-stop. His answer "Of course, every lap" made me realize what a well engineered car the NSX was.

 

[TigerNSX]

The other thing to include in your calculation is the incremental cost. In other words, what you're asking here is not how much it costs for all your maintenance, but rather, how much extra it costs to go on the track, and for each track event.

That was precisely the question that I had in mind.
Thanks for the additional input.

 

[ncdogdoc]

Re: Track Day / Air Conditioning Story

Originally posted by ncdogdoc
>>remember to turn off the A/C......
....I walked over to the silver 91 in my group and asked nsxnut "Do you have the air conditioning on" because I was using it non-stop. His answer "Of course, every lap" made me realize what a well engineered car the NSX was.

I did this once by accident. Kept wondering where those "cool breezes" were coming from since it was 90+ outside

Never have done it since, as I no longer have the A/C in the car

But I do have a CoolShirt and Helmet setup with a Voyager Sidewinder I will be using from now on, so who needs that stinking HP robbing ozone eroding A/C!!!!!!

 

[92 white 0650]

Coolshirt

Where did you get yours (got a website?) and how do you like it?

 

[Lud]

The same thing is true for oil changes. If your track use doesn't change the frequency of your oil changes - for example, if you're getting the oil changed every 3-4 months regardless of whether you go to the track or not - then there is no incremental cost of taking the car to the track, in terms of oil changes./\

I change oil and filter every track event. I am not alone. Likewise, some folks who track their car flush their brake fluid more than once a year.

As for tech inspections, they are often done for free - particularly if you take it to your regular mechanic.

$35 around here.

Gearing, too. But considering that we're talking about swings of at most $10-15, it's again insignificant - not enough to worry about in coming up with an overall estimate of the cost of tracking the car.

I wasn't talking about other mods affecting fuel economy, I was talking about other mods affecting the cost of doing a track event. If you use certain tires your per-event tire cost can change quite a bit. And if you have a big brake kit your pad/rotor replacement costs and frequency may change quite a bit.

I'm not trying to argue, just put out some other costs (in dollars or time) that some people may run into depending on their personal situation and how they decide to maintain their car.

I haven't had any of those problems.

You have had a clutch issue though, correct?

 

[ncdogdoc]

Re: Coolshirt

Where did you get yours (got a website?) and how do you like it?

I have not run with it yet, but know many others who love it.

You can check out their site for all their products.

I am a Cool Shirt dealer.

 

[nsxtasy]

Numerous rejoinders about costs

Obviously, if your circumstances are different, do the numbers to figure out your own costs. If you want to change your oil for every track event - I think that's excessive, but to each his own - then add in the cost of the oil change (just to the extent that it wouldn't be done if you weren't doing the track event). Same thing with tires, or other mods. State your assumptions - I've stated mine - and work the numbers.

Incidentally, my experience with tires has been that track use may wear them faster, but that any resulting cost differences per track event are going to be pretty insignificant, and that this is true regardless of whether you are using OEM tires or R compound tires. (I have used the stock A022H tires on the track as well as A032R tires; the somewhat more rapid wear on the latter is at least partially offset by the fact that they cost 25 percent less than the stock tires.) Remember, an average track event typically consists of maybe 150 actual track miles (200 if you're really lucky). So even if wear is accelerated (on tires, for example), you're not talking about all that many miles. Again, just work the numbers to come up with your own estimates.

I have yet to hear anyone account for changes that add up to a difference as much as $100 per event from my previously-stated estimate of $700-800 per event. However, I should note that you can figure out your own estimates, particularly where your assumptions vary from mine. For example, some two-day track events cost $450-600, and others cost $200-250, depending on the group, the track, etc. Mine are averages based on my own experiences. Have I mentioned that you can "work the numbers" yourself?

You have had a clutch issue though, correct?

No, nothing related to track use. My original clutch was defective (the starter ring gear came off the flywheel when the car had 800 miles on it). It was replaced with a stock clutch, which lasted 38K total miles including over 6K actual track miles before it failed; the total miles are a typical lifespan for a stock clutch and the number of actual track miles makes its longevity rather impressive.

 

[Lud]

I have yet to hear anyone account for changes that add up to a difference as much as $100 per event

Well not to beat a dead horse, but the items I listed do add up to over $100. Whether they change someone else's per-event cost from the $700-$800 you estimated I cannot say since as we've both noted, everyone's circumstances are a little different.

It was replaced with a stock clutch, which lasted 38K total miles including over 6K actual track miles before it failed

That's what I was thinking of. This is one of those "hard to quantify without a detailed survey and a large sample" accelerated wear items IMO. I'd crap a brick if I wore a stock NSX clutch out that fast on the street unless I was drag racing all the time. Since I am assume you know how to drive an NSX clutch properly, I would therefore venture to guess that your many track events contributed to it wearing faster than it would have if you never tracked your car.

Granted this is something that happens slowly bit over MANY track events, but a clutch is an expensive job, and all these $25 here, $45 there costs per track event start adding up and suddenly your long-term cost per event has snuck up another hundred or more bucks if you track your car a lot relative to your street mileage.

Certainly none of these things are big money on their own, but if we are trying to figure the true cost of regularly tracking the car we shouldn't totally ignore them, since they do add up cumulatively. And since of course everyone's situation varies, if we list everything we can think of they can just pick whatever applies to them!

Oh I just thought of another... Did you count mounting/balancing tires? Not a big deal here but aren't they screwing you guys around Chicago for $25+ per wheel or something like that?

Now let's consider the opportunity cost of the time spent for a track event.... JUST KIDDING!

 

[sjs]

Then you're not driving the car as hard as you could... (Right, Ken?)

Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking about most of your wear item estimates.

 

[ncdogdoc]

A new set of brake pads usually lasts me 5-6 events for the fronts, and 10+ for the rears...

of course usage is driver dependent...

Originally posted by nsxtasy
Then you're not driving the car as hard as you could... (Right, Ken?)

No, it means he is probably using Carbotechs

 

[nsxtasy]

Well not to beat a dead horse

That's okay, we can keep beating the horse.

but the items I listed do add up to over $100.

No, they don't. For example:

a clutch is an expensive job, and all these $25 here, $45 there costs per track event start adding up and suddenly your long-term cost per event has snuck up another hundred or more bucks if you track your car a lot relative to your street mileage.

Except that we're not talking about $25 here, $45 there. As I noted above, most of these figures are more like $5 here, $10 there. Here's the calculation for your clutch example, to which you attached that $25/$45 figure.

Most of us consider typical mileage on a five-speed NSX clutch to be 30-50K miles. Larry B says that all the time, and he has replaced quite a few of them. Which is why 38K miles doesn't represent ANY unusual wear - a difference of zero dollars. But let's go ahead and make an unsubstantiated claim (that IMO would probably be refuted by empirical evidence, if we had the capability to conduct a study that controlled for all the relevant variables and had sufficient data - but I digress) that NSX clutches should last at least 57K miles, if we all drove like grannies and never exceeded 4000 RPM or 75 mph, (which of course describes those who don't go to the track ). Does that mean that all of that $2000 for a clutch replacement at 38K miles should be attributed to track use? No, because the clutch gets replaced for street use too, just not as often. Looking at the two lifespans over the same period (which is why I chose a figure that would divide easily), I would be paying for three clutch replacements over the course of 114K miles, instead of two. So the difference is $2000 over 114K miles. Based on my usage, 114K miles represents roughly 130 track events. So that difference - $2000 for 130 track events - is about $15 per track event. And that is a maximum, based on a VERY shaky assumption regarding clutch mileage, one with which I disagree.

Oh I just thought of another... Did you count mounting/balancing tires? Not a big deal here but aren't they screwing you guys around Chicago for $25+ per wheel or something like that?

Yes, I count mounting/balancing tires. However, that cost is really minimal. As I noted earlier, the cost of tires is relatively insignificant - less than $10/event. Even at $25-30, the cost of mounting/balancing the tires - which you only do once - is no more than 15 percent of the cost of the tires themselves - so again, you're talking about $1.50/event now.

When you come up with an estimate, you shouldn't worry about items that, together, account for a tiny fraction of the overall total, and you shouldn't make shaky assumptions.

If you disagree with the estimate of $700-800 per event, please provide your own estimate, and show all your calculations and all the assumptions you make.

 

[Lud]

>>but the items I listed do add up to over $100.
No, they don't. For example:

Hmm. Let me check my math then.

$28 oil
$12 filter
$29 labor for oil change
$35 tech inspection
$5 brake fluid
$35 labor for brake flush

If I would normally change my oil once a year and flush my brakes every other year, as per my car's maintenance schedule from Honda for the type and amount of use my car gets outside of track events, my cost for oil and brake fluid jobs for 2 years of street use would be about $178.

If I do oil, brake fluid and tech inspection each 5 times a year for track events for two years, my cost jumps to $1440.

$1440 - $178 = $1262

$1250 / 2 = $631 per year.

$625 / 5 = $126.20 marginal cost per track event for the items described.

I used 5 track events per year since that is the number TigerNSX specified in his original inquiry. Using your numbers for brake fluid ($10 fluid and $80 labor for street, $30 fluid for track) the marginal cost would be quite a bit more. However with my brake kit and wheel design it is easy to flush the fluid through the caliper using a vacuum pump without even removing the wheels, so labor is less).

But let's go ahead and make an unsubstantiated claim (that IMO would probably be refuted by empirical evidence, if we had the capability to conduct a study that controlled for all the relevant variables and had sufficient data - but I digress) that NSX clutches should last at least 57K miles, if we all drove like grannies and never exceeded 4000 RPM or 75 mph, (which of course describes those who don't go to the track).

As for other long-term wear... If you feel that you got full life out of your clutch at 38k miles, well then I guess if you're satisfied with how long it lasted that's great. Other people, myself included, might not be satisified with that clutch life.

However, I would like to stop to correct what appears to be a mistaken assumption that RPM or speed determine clutch wear; they do not. Assuming the clutch is not defective, there are two main ways the stock NSX clutch fails: Worn out friction material or a thrown or broken spring.

Friction material: Unless you have modified a car to produce more power than your clutch can hold, the clutch only appreciably wears when it is partially engaged (or partially disengaged if you prefer to look at it that way). Running 150 MPH does not wear the clutch any more than running at 50 MPH.

Thrown/broken springs: The NSX seems a little more prone to this than I would expect, though I think part of that may be due to the number of remanufactured clutches in use. In any event, these springs are there to help absorb the shock of the clutch grabbing hold when the engine and rear wheels are not in sync. The larger the variance the more stress placed upon them. With enough repeated stress they can break or jump out of where they are supposed to be.

The fact is that many people do get 60k, 75k, some even 100k+. And if you look at folks who have reported over 100k miles they are not people who babied their cars. This seems to be a pretty clear indication that clutches lasting only 30k - 40k are used harder, whether they do so on purpose (drag racing would be a prime example) or because they, or the previous owner in many cases, don't really know how to drive it the right way. I've smelled burning clutches more than once at every NSXPO I've been to (1998 - 2003), as well as some other smaller regional NSX events. Those folks, along with people who do a lot of drag racing, are the people burning the friction material off their clutches in 30k - 40k of street use.

I've also ridden with some NSX owners, even at the track in the A or Instructors groups, who did not match revs on their "aggressive" downshifts (downshifts where the RPM is going to be in the 5000-8000 range), they just braked down to say 75 MPH, hit the clutch, downshifted to 2nd and released the clutch, letting their clutch soak up the huge difference in speed between the engine side and rear wheel side of their drivetrain. While some of these guys are certainly better/faster drivers than me, they are decidedly not easy on the equipment. These are the folks who tend to break or throw springs in their clutch. There is also a little extra clutch wear from doing this because the wear wheels can't spin the engine up instantly, but I think the main issue is stressing the crap out of the springs. These people are not likely to see 50k miles out of their clutches either if they do it on a regular basis.