Good reason to be poor.

[steveny]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ap/20040210/ap_on_fe_st/finland_speeding_fine

 

[Osiris_x11]

wateva'...

hmmm, so typical per se' of the socialization of Europe.

 

[PHOEN$X]

Well, if he keeps getting speeding tickets he's gonna become poor! Seriously though, that's just wrong. What does income have to do with the level of guilt? So if you're unemployed, you can speed all you want and not pay a cent?

 

[steveny]

So if you're unemployed, you can speed all you want and not pay a cent?

That is my point. Be poor and speed all you want. Oh, but wait they would just put you in jail probably, but wouldn't that mean the rich were buying their way out of jail time??? Things that make you go Hmmmmm!

 

[gheba_nsx]

They have minimum fines in Finland of course. But if you are rich, fines grow with your salary.

Why?

Because fines should be a punishment and if you earn millions, how can a small 100$ scare you?

I am not totally against this... there aro so many arrogant people where I live parking Ferrari, 911TT, MB SL, ... everywhere, blocking access to doors, passing the red light, ... here we do not have incremental fines and they consider the "relatively low" fines, made for normal people, peanuts.

Would you respect limits or forbidden parking places if you had to pay 2$ if they caught you?

 

[steveny]

Because fines should be a punishment and if you earn millions, how can a small 100$ scare you?

Good point Gheba. I remember a local land owner here being fined for allowing a NYC contractor to dump debris on some property the land owner had. The land owner received 1.2 million for "dumping Fees" and was fined 250k for the offence.
Soon after the land owner died and the county had to pay 2 million to have it cleaned up. The million dollar difference between the fine and amount collected had been filtered to the land owners family and was untouchable.

 

[NSX_Dreamer]

This is off the subject but important.

Is there any doubt that speeding fines are mostly related to revenue, and very little to actual safety, here in the US at least?

How many of you have speeded 10 or 20 miles over the limit, and killed or injured someone? Most speeding limits are set for the lowest level common denominator - ie the grandma who can still barely drive but won't be the fast reactor to the environment.

In the US at least, cops rate among the lowest among those who get tickets. Is it because they speed the least? Don't think so - it's because of the "brotherhood" that they avoid tickets.

Safety on the road is very important, but speeding fines have very little to do with safety.

 

[nkb]

They have minimum fines in Finland of course. But if you are rich, fines grow with your salary.

Why?

Because fines should be a punishment and if you earn millions, how can a small 100$ scare you?

I am not totally against this... there aro so many arrogant people where I live parking Ferrari, 911TT, MB SL, ... everywhere, blocking access to doors, passing the red light, ... here we do not have incremental fines and they consider the "relatively low" fines, made for normal people, peanuts.

Would you respect limits or forbidden parking places if you had to pay 2$ if they caught you?

I grew up in Germany, and (unless it was recently changed) the fines are uniform, independant of salary.
Gheba, you're right, a $100 fine to a millionaire is a lot less deterrent than to a regular schmoe.

But, that is why they count points against your license in Germany. Accumulate enough points, and you have your license suspended. Multiple suspensions will lead to revocation of your driving privileges. That is how they make rich people care.
Also, getting out of tickets is a lot harder in Germany, not like here.

As far as illegal parking (which obviously will not get you points) can be enforced by towing the car. No matter how much money you make, that is a hassle. It keeps me from illegally parking.

Personally, I don't agree with fines based on salary. That's the equivalent of making a rich person go to jail longer than a poor person for the same crime.
Of course, we all know it is the exact opposite, since rich people can afford the better lawyers, but that is a completely different subject.

 

[nkb]

This is off the subject but important.

Is there any doubt that speeding fines are mostly related to revenue, and very little to actual safety, here in the US at least?

How many of you have speeded 10 or 20 miles over the limit, and killed or injured someone? Most speeding limits are set for the lowest level common denominator - ie the grandma who can still barely drive but won't be the fast reactor to the environment.

In the US at least, cops rate among the lowest among those who get tickets. Is it because they speed the least? Don't think so - it's because of the "brotherhood" that they avoid tickets.

Safety on the road is very important, but speeding fines have very little to do with safety.

I know this has been discussed before.

Some of the guys on this forum who are involved in law enforcement will argue it is all about safety, while others (including me) will agree with you.

I think it varies by individual jurisdictions and even indivudual officers, but, in general, it is about revenue. Why else do you see speed traps in spots which are relatively safe (like open highways), and less in dangerous places (like back roads with many blind corners)? That's right, because they would only manage a fraction of the citations there.

 

[PHOEN$X]

But, that is why they count points against your license in Germany. Accumulate enough points, and you have your license suspended. Multiple suspensions will lead to revocation of your driving privileges. That is how they make rich people care.

As far as illegal parking (which obviously will not get you points) can be enforced by towing the car. No matter how much money you make, that is a hassle. It keeps me from illegally parking.

Personally, I don't agree with fines based on salary.

I concur, it makes no sense and can never be made to be fair. What if a rich person lived off investment dividends (or a parent's handout) and had no real salary/income? What do you do, calculate the fines based on family assets?

Force the violator to spend a day in traffic school, and I'm sure it'll have as much impact on the rich person as a poor one.

 

[steveny]

As far as illegal parking (which obviously will not get you points) can be enforced by towing the car. No matter how much money you make, that is a hassle. It keeps me from illegally parking.

I just send my PA to deal with it and retrieve the car as I have several others in the garage I can use. J/K

 

[gheba_nsx]

Personally, I don't agree with fines based on salary. That's the equivalent of making a rich person go to jail longer than a poor person for the same crime.

I can agree with some other points but not with this. This is IMO instead "making a rich person go to jail the SAME amount of days than a poor person for the same crime"... a 3% of your annual income for a fine is hitting you in a more similar way if you are rich or poor (of cours ethe rich remains advantaged anyway).


PS: from what I know only some scandinavian country is doing this, the rest of Europe is not.

 

[nkb]

I can agree with some other points but not with this. This is IMO instead "making a rich person go to jail the SAME amount of days than a poor person for the same crime"... a 3% of your annual income for a fine is hitting you in a more similar way if you are rich or poor (of cours ethe rich remains advantaged anyway).

OK, that wasn't the greatest analogy. How about this one instead?

Let's assume for the sake of easier math, that 70 is the average life expectancy.

For a crime that carries a 5-year jail sentence, should a 20 year old get a longer sentence than a 60 year old? After all, 5 years to a 20-year old is only 10% of his remaining life, while to a 60-year old, that is half of his.

If you agree with fines based on salary, then you should agree to jail sentencing based on age (or remaining life expectancy).

 

[steveny]

OK, that wasn't the greatest analogy. How about this one instead?

Let's assume for the sake of easier math, that 70 is the average life expectancy.

For a crime that carries a 5-year jail sentence, should a 20 year old get a longer sentence than a 60 year old? After all, 5 years to a 20-year old is only 10% of his remaining life, while to a 60-year old, that is half of his.

If you agree with fines based on salary, then you should agree to jail sentencing based on age (or remaining life expectancy).

Great point. If this were so I wonder if the crime rate would increase at the geriatric level and decrease at the juvenile level.