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BBSC removal and inspection

Joined
2 March 2004
Messages
56
Location
Melbourne, FL
I have removed my BBSC to do some other engine work. I was surprised to find moderate surface rust on the drive shaft. I believe Andy mentioned that this shaft was machine to rather strict tolerances. Would such rust have any effect of rotational balance.

Also is there any lubrication maintainence required; i.e. the bearings.
 

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I have also noted about 1.5-2mm play (open space) between a number of the plastic coupler heads and the adjacent metal keys that join the drive shaft to the supercharger
 
Light rust will not effect the ballance of the shaft only bearing removal. It should have been plated from factory. Dan
 
StGeorge said:
I have also noted about 1.5-2mm play (open space) between a number of the plastic coupler heads and the adjacent metal keys that join the drive shaft to the supercharger

Replace the "spider" as this is a regular maintenance item and is subject to wear.


Armando
 
Folks,

Just a note of caution. The BBSC drive unit has three bearings. You can see the bearing blocks in the picture above. Unfortunately the above assembly CANNOT be reassembled and installed back in the car as is. The drive unit MUST be returned to Mark Basch to be placed in a bearing alignment jig. The tolerances on these units is critical to keep the bearings intact.

Please use caution and only remove the drive unit as an assembly.

HTH,
LarryB
 
Thanks Larry,

I would like to clarify your last post.
I needed to removed the hex bolts securing the bearing blocks to the outer casing; on my system heads of these bolts have sustained substantial rust. While this of course has no impact upon the bolt integrity, the appearance is very unacceptable. I am having the heads (only) chromed.

I have not manipulated the bearings or shaft. Do I understand you correctly that the unit cannot be refitted and bolted into the casing without Mark?"

Thanks
 
StGeorge said:

I needed to removed the hex bolts securing the bearing blocks to the outer casing; on my system heads of these bolts have sustained substantial rust.
Poor choice in hardware. A few of mine actually had to be drilled-out in order to get the bbsc off the car. :mad:
 
Larry, do the bearings need to be pre-loaded for re assemebly. Why a jig? A quick fix would be to remove the rust and paint the shaft. Not my first pick but would solve the problem.
 
StGeorge said:
Thanks Larry,

I would like to clarify your last post.
I needed to removed the hex bolts securing the bearing blocks to the outer casing; on my system heads of these bolts have sustained substantial rust. While this of course has no impact upon the bolt integrity, the appearance is very unacceptable. I am having the heads (only) chromed.

I have not manipulated the bearings or shaft. Do I understand you correctly that the unit cannot be refitted and bolted into the casing without Mark?"

Thanks

I also remember Mark B. Specifically telling me not to remove the bearing carriers and shaft from the alluminum assembly. Larry is correct in telling you that the peices will have to be put together using Marks' jig to insure proper shaft and bearing alignment.

Good Luck
Armando
 
The jig for reassembly is an alignment jig. It positions the bearing blocks exactly aligned.


James,

Sorry to be late with this, but it would have been feasible to remove two bolts per bearing block, at one time, not upset the bearing position, then do the other two later.

At this point, once you get the bolts back, pack them up with the entire assembly and get it to MB.

Dan,

The jig is only for bearing alignment AFAIK, I do not believe they are tapered bearings, so no preload:).

HTH,
LarryB
 
Random Comments

Moderate rust on the shaft will not hurt anything. Considering that Melbourne, Florida is on the Atlantic coast where the humidity is always high, unless the car is a daily driver (engine heat helps alleviate oxidation), surface rust is to be expected. Since the shaft is not exposed to the eye while viewing the engine, I wouldn't worry about it.

No, the shaft should not have been plated. The shaft is made by Thomson, a precision shaft and bearing company. Their products are typically manufactured to a tolerance of 0.0001". That’s right, not 0.001" but 0.0001". Chrome plating is thicker than the manufacturing tolerance, and this would interfere with the press fit between the shaft and the bearings.

To clarify the fact that the bearings / shaft is to be worked on my MB. This is with respect to pressing the bearings onto the shaft. What is not evident from the above picture is that the shaft is not of constant diameter. Therefore, not only is it critical to press the bearings onto the shaft with MB’s jig, the sequence is also important.

Regarding the hex heads rusting, I know of BBSCs in other parts of the country with similar humidity that have no rust on the hex heads. Plating them is a bad choice for one simple reason. The plating will make the inside dimension of the hex a few thousandths of an inch smaller than what it now is. You will have to use a smaller hex wrench to fit into the smaller plated hole. Chances are, that the next smaller standard size wrench will be too small. You could damage the plating when you tighten the bolts. I would get stainless steel bolts instead.

Regarding these bolts having to be drilled out for removal. The bolts are not a poor choice in hardware, they were simply overtightened.
 
Andy and Larry

Thanks for the helpful info.

Actually, I just moved to Melbourne. The marked corrosion of the hex heads occurred while I lived in the Northeast. Car has always been garaged.

The bolts that were problematic to remove have been those that secure the drive unit to the SC. In fact, Mark had to extract one the last time he worked on my system. The more distal bolts were not a problem. I assume this is related to the SC heat. Is there a recommended torque for these?

I had initially hoped to use SS bolts. I asked Mark about this at NSXPO and he stated that the bearing bolts are unusual size/tolerance and SS was not available.

Andy...have you or others replaced these with acceptable SS?
 
I still do not quite understand the problem of remounting the bearing/shaft assembly to the aluminum housing without Mark's jig. The variable bearing housing is the middle one; the ends are relatively fixed. Why would these simply not align with the housing mounting holes? I could understand that this would be a problem if I had removed the pulley/plate or the SC key, but it remains as a single unit and only the aluminum housing that mounts to the bearings has been removed.
 
Re: Random Comments

AndyVecsey said:
Regarding these bolts having to be drilled out for removal. The bolts are not a poor choice in hardware, they were simply overtightened.
Well, I can't say for certain because I was not there to witness the removal, but the tech doing the removal attributed it to rust. With that said, the only person who touched the bolts (overtightening) was MB during install. I also recall that in some of the private bbsc e-mail list messages that replacement bolts (stainless) were asked for, and if I recall correctly were said to be made available in the future by MB, but that never happened, at least not to this owners knowledge. Why is this stuff important to me? Because without the right hardware in my hands, I have a heap of scrap metal to sell to someone. I also need a new SS box to be sent, but I'm not holding my breath on that. I guess because I took the thing off and went turbo, I somehow don't matter in terms of support.
 
Re: Re: Random Comments

KGP said:
... the only person who touched the bolts (overtightening) was MB during install.
Sorry, I retract that statement. I assume the tech who performed the leak-down test on my engine when it grenaded last summer had to remove the bolts. He talked with MB on the phone, but probably didn't think to ask how much to re-torque the bolts. My bad. :eek:
 
Personally I doubt that the bolts seized due to over tightening during install. Bolts that corrode, especially those subjected to heat, often seize and can't be removed without breaking or careful measures to lubricate and release. These bolts were almost immediately identified as quick to rust, and there is no reason to believe that the threaded portion was any less so than the tops. Just a poor choice IMNSHO, plain and simple. Esthetics aside, perhaps a bit of anti-seize would be appropriate. Or, odd as it sounds, the least permanent loctite (or equivalent) since it will coat the threads and reduce corrosion. There's just no excuse for this to happen so quickly.
 
sjs said:
Or, odd as it sounds, the least permanent loctite (or equivalent) since it will coat the threads and reduce corrosion.
Actually, if I remember right, the BBSC installation manual calls for an anti-seize compound to be used, but I'm sure Steve Moss (tech who performed leak-down) didn't know that. But I still tend to agree, there probably could have been a better choice in hardware.
 
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Unfortunately the above assembly CANNOT be reassembled and installed back in the car as is. The drive unit MUST be returned to Mark Basch to be placed in a bearing alignment jig. The tolerances on these units is critical to keep the bearings intact. Please use caution and only remove the drive unit as an assembly.

and

I also remember Mark B. Specifically telling me not to remove the bearing carriers and shaft from the aluminum assembly. Larry is correct in telling you that the pieces will have to be put together using Mark’s jig to ensure proper shaft and bearing alignment.

and

The jig for reassembly is an alignment jig. It positions the bearing blocks exactly aligned.

and

Sorry to be late with this, but it would have been feasible to remove two bolts per bearing block, at one time, not upset the bearing position, then do the other two later. At this point, once you get the bolts back, pack them up with the entire assembly and get it to MB.

and

I still do not quite understand the problem of remounting the bearing / shaft assembly to the aluminum housing without Mark's jig. The variable bearing housing is the middle one; the ends are relatively fixed. Why would these simply not align with the housing mounting holes? I could understand that this would be a problem if I had removed the pulley / plate or the SC key, but it remains as a single unit and only the aluminum housing that mounts to the bearings has been removed.

Not picking an argument here, but unless there is some detail we don’t know, as long as the position of the bearing carriers on the shaft has not moved, there is no engineering reason (in my mind, anyhow) why simply bolting the bearing blocks back into the carrier will not work.

When I had the transmission rebuilt a few months ago, during on of my shop visits, I was looking over the Basch carrier. There are no shims between the bearing blocks and the long carrier. Therefore, lateral misalignment is not a problem. Unless!! Unless the long carrier itself is bent. This will cause the shaft to flex with each revolution. The minute flex is perhaps not enough to overstress the Thomson shaft; however, I can see that it could result in premature bearing wear. I think I am in agreement with StGeorge.....if the bearing blocks are simply unbolted and removed from the long carrier, as long as the bearings don’t move on the shaft, then simply bolting the bearing blocks back into long carrier should work. During original assembly of a drive unit when the bearings are pressed onto the shaft, it is critical of their axial position to line up with the bolt holes in the long carrier.

Here is a crude analogy from American Iron rear-end drive cars. Pressing the bearing onto the axle is a careful process. However, once the bearing position is established you can remove and reinstall the axle from the rear-end as many times as you want without needing a jig.

These bolts were almost immediately identified as quick to rust, and there is no reason to believe that the threaded portion was any less so than the tops.

You must’ve read my mind. I went home for lunch and for shits-n-giggles I removed one of the bolts. Although there is mild surface oxidation on the head, the threads look brand new perfect. So as a friendly rebuttal, not all threads of these bolts rust. I am not defending material selection, I am only saying that if fasteners were overtightened and / or no anti-seize paste was applied to the threads, then what is the true root cause of the bolt problems, material selection or the person tightening the bolts? In fact, material selection goes right out the window if a part is installed incorrectly. BTW, I do plan to replace the hex bolts with stainless steel versions, but that project is a very low priority on my list.

There's just no excuse for this to happen so quickly.

It doesn’t matter if the bolts rust within a month or two years.....bare carbon steel oxidizes. MB has nothing to do with Mother Nature’s chemistry of oxidation. On the other hand, if the argument is that the BBSC kit should come with chromed or stainless steel bolts, then I agree with that from an aesthetics viewpoint. Regardless what the bolts are made of, they should be pasted with anti-seize and not overtightened.
 
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Andy, I recal all bolts exposed to the elements from the cars I have worked on (honda included) are plated. You are right that a plated surface would not work well with a tolorence that tight and because of that the shaft should have been made out of Stainless Steel. Rust removal could lose the .0001" (4 right) and you would need to do it to service a bearing so I would guess you would throw the assemebly away then get a "aligned" set from MB. Mark did a great job with the drive system but serviceability is just as important.
 
Since I had all of the bolts removed, I inspected the threads; a at least 40-50% had at least one or two threads with some rust. Some rust was also present under the heads.

Some heads and threads did retain a relative normal appearance as Andy discribed

I found that the only way to remove these bolts without rounding out the hex was to insert a hex drive socket into the head and give it a few sharp raps with a hammer prior to attempted removal. Liberal lubrication had no effect.

I believe that the heat generated by the SC has the greatest effect and overtightening is not a factor. On my unit the worse rusting occured at the top bolts at the pulley. These cracked open with minimal effort.
 
Aside from the serviceability issue, I guess one thing that bothered me about the rusted bolts, which might not bother other people, is simply the appearance. Each and every time someone was checking out my engine, one comment or question I would get was "why are those bolts rusted (top surface)?" I felt like I had to defend the design of the sc, even though I thought that the darn things should have been stainless.
 
KGP said:
I guess one thing that bothered me about the rusted bolts, which might not bother other people, is simply the appearance. Each and every time someone was checking out my engine, one comment or question I would get was "why are those bolts rusted (top surface)?"

I could not agree more! The drive shaft housing is nicely polished, yet, standing out on top like out-of-contol teenaged acne, are these badly rusted fastners. These are totally incongruent with the rest of the system. It is only made worse if you start adding other polished pieces.

Has anyone found appropriate SS replacements?
 
MiamieNeSeX said:
Just paint the bolt heads!! ................... geeeeeze.


Armando

agreed.

actually, i'm still waiting for people who actually look into my engine bay to point out defects. usually a 5-20 second look along with 'cool car' comment is what i get... even on my old beater landcruiser, when people check out the engine, i've seldom run across someone who critisizes its appearance, even if they think it looks like crap...
 
MiamieNeSeX said:
Just paint the bolt heads!! ................... geeeeeze.


Armando

That is a "good enough" option and that may be in fact the final solution; however, if paint were my solution, I would not have spent $$$ on all those polished pieces and chrome.
 
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