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Any welding tips ??

MvM

Legendary Member
Joined
12 February 2002
Messages
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Location
Rotterdam, Netherlands
My dear NSX is going te be repaired soon :)

But there will be some substantial welding to do and I was wondering if there is anything special to know about welding the type of aluminum (or alu-alloy) that has been used in the construction of the NSX. Don't worry though, it will all be done by a competent repair-shop but I was nevertheless wondering if there are some issues or tips that could be helpfull for me and them.
 
I don't have any experience welding but I do know (from watching TV:) ) that welding aluminum is much more difficult than metal. Just make sure that the person has experience with aluminum.
 
.....welding aluminum is much more difficult than metal......

But, aluminum is a metal.

Actually, with the correct welding machine - TIG, MIG, submerged arc, etc. - welding aluminum is no more difficult that welding steel.

There is more to it than the repair shop being experienced in welding aluminum. When the NSX was first released to the US market, Honda set up a training / certification program to identify repair shops that can repair the NSX. Give Honda a call in Torrance, California and ask to speak with Kent Shepley. If he doesn't have the information at hand, he knows who does.
 
hlweyl is 100% right. Aluminum is very tricky to weld. Make sure you have somebody who knows what they are doing and have experience with welding a similar metal in the past.

Good Luck
-Mike
 
Welding aluminum is more tricky then normal steel because aluminum has a much less melting point than steel..Have someone that is very good and experienced with a tig welder..
 
As long as Honda was actively marketing the NSX in Germany they had only 2 dozens of the Honda dealers that where "NSX authorized". And not all of them had the special welding machine to make body repairs. I'd suggest to call Honda Netherland for their advice.

There may also be some Audi dealers with this special machinery. I wouldn't go for a free bodyshop.

Good luck with your car surgery Maarten (I hope your personal injuries are past now).
 
A Guide to Aluminum Welding
Reprinted courtesy of Welding Design and Fabrication magazine.


Even for those experienced in welding steels, welding aluminum alloys can present quite a challenge. Higher thermal conductivity and low melting point of aluminum alloys can easily lead to burnthrough unless welders follow prescribed procedures. Also, feeding aluminum welding wire during gas-metal-arc-welding (GMAW) presents a challenge because the wire is softer than steel, has a lower column strength, and tends to tangle at the drive roll.
 
MvM said:
My dear NSX is going te be repaired soon :)

But there will be some substantial welding to do and I was wondering if there is anything special to know about welding the type of aluminum (or alu-alloy) that has been used in the construction of the NSX. Don't worry though, it will all be done by a competent repair-shop but I was nevertheless wondering if there are some issues or tips that could be helpfull for me and them.

Hi Maarten,

As you perhaps know, the best way to go is letting a certified aluminum repair shop do the welding. I know one in s Graveland (Kees van Dijk). He is the only certified Ferrari repair shop in The Netherlands who is allowed to work on aluminum Ferraries. This is the place where I had my race NSX repaired. They do magical things with aluminum.

Succes,
Gerard
 
Re: Re: Any welding tips ??

Gerard van Santen said:
Hi Maarten,

As you perhaps know, the best way to go is letting a certified aluminum repair shop do the welding. I know one in s Graveland (Kees van Dijk). He is the only certified Ferrari repair shop in The Netherlands who is allowed to work on aluminum Ferraries. This is the place where I had my race NSX repaired. They do magical things with aluminum.

Succes,
Gerard

Yeah that's becuase ferrari won't release their chassis specs to anyone except these authorized dealers. So you have to pay the big $$ to fix them.

But either way I wouldn't get an aluminum body fixed 'anywhere' defintely go with a place with aluminum body experience.
 
MvM said:
My dear NSX is going te be repaired soon :)

But there will be some substantial welding to do and I was wondering if there is anything special to know about welding the type of aluminum (or alu-alloy) that has been used in the construction of the NSX. Don't worry though, it will all be done by a competent repair-shop but I was nevertheless wondering if there are some issues or tips that could be helpfull for me and them.

Since you suggest that we "don't worry" why don't you take heed of your own advice. If they are competant and know how to weld aluminum do you really think you're going to get advice on welding from this or ANY forum that could make a difference? If the answer is yes then you have the wrong shop, otherwise have patience and faith. These cars were not built by Gods and skilled people can repair them correctly.
I know that waiting for your car to be done when there is nice driving weather is a bitch! I suggest that while it is laid up you get all your chores and projects done around the house so when the car is ready you can hit the road and have some fun!
 
Try talking to a certified airplane mechanic at a local airport.

DanO


good suggestion from dan o. i am an aircraft structural engineer, and a licensed Airframe & Powerplant mechanic.

you need to be careful what you're welding on your car. welding heat-treated aluminum introduces enough heat to locally anneal the aluminum adjacent to the weld. so, unless you can re-heat treat the whole piece you're welding, you'll be introducing a soft spot into the structure, losing strength rather than gaining it. spotwelding heat-treated aluminum generally does not introduce these deleterious effects.

also, once alloyed aluminum is bent, straightening it usually results in cracking due to work-hardening. bending will also create openings in the anodized surfaces, which can cause corrosion problems. however, i think the alloys used in the X are already pretty corrosion resistant in their heat-treated condition.

on the X, you don't want to cut and weld channels or crossmembers, spring/shock attachments, A & B pillars, or motor mounts. and definitely do not EVER do a weld or straighten on the suspension components. if it's bent or cracked, throw it away and get a new one. it's not worth the risk just to save a couple of bucks.

there may be other areas that could reduce strength in crash safety zones, but the items just listed are under cyclic loads every time you drive, resulting in fatigue (cracking) problems if not repaired correctly.

or, you can assume that there's a high enough factor of safety in the design to tolerate some damage, and that i'm just gas-baggin, and besides, it's just a friggin car. on aircraft, we work with a 50% safety factor (1.5), so there's not much room for error. on a car, i'm sure it's much higher.

these are general instructions, not intended for use on any aircraft installation without FAA approval.
 
Guys,
Thank you very much for all the good tips.
I think I know what questions to ask these guys. The are very confident they can do the work but I just wanted to know a little more about the difference between alu- and steel-welding.
The welding is in the trunk area were the trunk-bottom and trunk rear will be replaced with factory new parts. The chassis of the car is (luckily) undamaged).
 
There is NSX body shop manual and it shows that NSX has few diffrent aluminum alloys and it gives you the number of the alloy. Like structure is diffrent then fenders etc.. I belive the structure alloy was like 6003 or somting like that and fenders wore someware in 5000's but I can't recall too good.

When welding you need to mach the wire/tig alloy to the part you welding so it wil bond good. Other wise it will crack later on.

I used to have this nsx auto body manual that shows some diffrent ways to weld tips etc.. Maybe some one on this board has electronic version of it. It was all about the welding the nsx manual. Places on nsx where it was spot welded and line weld.
It had precised location of every weld on nsx.
 
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