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Chip upgrades - how much difference

MvM

Legendary Member
Joined
12 February 2002
Messages
3,021
Location
Rotterdam, Netherlands
I've been reading some posts about chiptuning and visited several company-sites who sell chips to improve performance. Only the ones I see on nsxprime have NSX-chips. On some other cars the HP & Torque gain are looking quite good (Volvo, VW). I looked at the OEM vs Dali etc. graphs on the FAQ and the difference seems quite small, only 15 HP.
Can anyone tell me how much difference (if at all) such a increase makes in terms of acceleration.
In other words, if you have no others mods, is such an investment worth the trouble??
 
Get the dutch micro-electronics magazine (Elektuur) from April this year.
They had a little story on this subject.

VERY interesting information here.


Dutchy
 
Originally posted by MvM:
In other words, if you have no others mods, is such an investment worth the trouble??

No. Not even close to being worth it. If anyone could create better fuel and timing maps then honda engineers, they would be working for them. There is a close relation between emmisions and performance one might say, but the extra 1 or 2 HP you MIGHT get without changing the flow characteristics of the engine are nowhere near worth the amount of money it costs; as far as HP:$ ratio is concerned.

------------------
jack of all trades, master of some.
 
Im going to have to disagree and say that taking it to a tuner that does custom chips based upon your mods IS worth it.

However I will also say that it depends on what mods you have.

In other words if you just have I/H/E Id be less inclined to do a chip mod, however if you have a supercharger/turbo etc etc then I would have a chip done.

I have switched my chip out 2 times (NOS, non-NOS, and SC) and each of them made a difference in performance. Granted it wasn't "huge", but 10-12hp at the rear wheel is 10-12hp
smile.gif


-B
 
Originally posted by BoneZ:
Im going to have to disagree and say that taking it to a tuner that does custom chips based upon your mods IS worth it.

However I will also say that it depends on what mods you have.

In other words if you just have I/H/E Id be less inclined to do a chip mod, however if you have a supercharger/turbo etc etc then I would have a chip done.

I have switched my chip out 2 times (NOS, non-NOS, and SC) and each of them made a difference in performance. Granted it wasn't "huge", but 10-12hp at the rear wheel is 10-12hp
smile.gif


-B

Notice his question:

Originally posted by MvM:
In other words, if you have no others mods, is such an investment worth the trouble??

No other mods... there's nothing to disagree about.
smile.gif

I also stated "without changing the flow characteristics of the engine" inferring if you start making modifications there is greater potential for power gains using a chip..but as you mentioned...custom tuned chip is the key...buying a 'chipped' ecu is just guessing.

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jack of all trades, master of some.

[This message has been edited by true (edited 17 May 2002).]
 
MvM I am not even sure you can install Acura chips on your Honda! Really... pay attention to this! I wanted to do the same and I was told it would not have worked...
 
Gheba,

Thanks for the info. At this moment I'm still enjoying my NSX so much (maybe even too much, am putting a lot of km onto it) and don't really feel the need for more power yet but I'm sure that will come in the future.
 
You are right, power is never enough...
biggrin.gif

Anyway, if you find out a chip (not the Mugen, too much money!) that works on a Honda NSX let me know, we are all interested!
smile.gif
 
Gheba_nsx

Just how much HP would be worthwhile. I just bought a Dutch car-accessoires magazine and the list two tuners in Holland who will also modify Hondas. For the 3.0 NSX they list a changes of 274 to 291 HP and 284 to 311Nm. Price would be 760 Euros. A second chip-tuner is located about a mile from my work but I haven't made any inquiries there yet.
 
There are many also here in Switzerland (Digitpower is quite known around Europe) but I would not trust them... they tune hundreds of cars - do you really think they tested and optimised on the dyno all those cars? From a Kia to a Diablo?
confused.gif


Is it the case also for your "tuner" I imagine, not?

Anyway the price here for 17 ps is about 700 euros.
 
Gheba,

My guess is they would install a 'standard' chip and do very little real tuning the 'chip to the engine'. If the price would be lower I might consider it.
Have you had any experience with the results of such an upgrade or do you know someone who has?
 
Oke guys, let me just briefly explain about the article in the dutch electronics magazine, and some experience i have with ECU's/CPU's and programming.


ECU's are just very simple stand-alone computers. The early ones were nothing more then a Z80(processor, often a 80C39) with a Eprom (UV-eraisable) next to it. The so well known 'chip'.
On the board there was a transistor for controlling the injector (single point), an analog to digital converter, and a 12V to 5V powersupply.

I repaired those for car dealers, and they where more then happy to pay up to USD250 for a repair. Keep in mind that the parts on the ECU costed me USD20, thats for ALL the parts including CPU/Eprom/buffers/ADC's. And yes, thats what the ECU's from todays cars cost in parts as well (maybe a couple of tenners more). Funny to pay hundreds, sometime even thousands of dollars for a new one.
Don't expect militairy standards parts inside (MILSPEC). They have used the cheapest parts on the market.

The present ECU's look a bit more challenging inside, but the whole thing is still based on a CPU and Eprom (sometimes inside the CPU) and ADC converters.
In the beginning all IC's where having there names on, today most parts have a customized number on, but are still the same parts as then. It stops people like me repairing them.....

It's mainly the programming which has evolved over time.

Now there is where the mistery is, in the programming.
A CPU can be programmed in different language's, such as C, Pascal, Forth etc. The best choice would be assembly, because it is very fast executing, but very hard to programm (i love assembly!).
This program is stored in the Eprom 'chip', or in the CPU and the Eprom.
This program has to be altered for making different engine characteristics.
This is where the cowboys and proffesionals come in.

The following steps should be taken for a proffesional change:
- Reading the program from the Eprom and/or CPU into the a assembler on a PC.
- Analyzing the program, which will cost a lot of time. Especially if these programs are a compiled C program.
- Defining new parameters.
- Altering the program.
- Reprogram the CPU and/or Eprom.
- Test the new ECU on a dyno.
- feedback.
- Alter parameters.

The engineers who done the initial program, are not stupid (duh).
The program is written so the engine will perform at its maximum in any enviremont, which can alter, such as altitude, moisture in the air, temperature (!!!!) etc.
The disadvantage of this all, is that the program is standard for all (NSX) engines, so none of the engines comming of the factory will have the ultimate ECU for it. This is where any gains, if any, can be made.

Where it goes wrong:
There are a lot of 'tuners' who would just read the data from the Eprom, and put an 'offset' onto it.
They just fiddle about with the offset, until the engine runs smooth, and there seems to be a difference.
What really happens, is that all prarameters of the engine are getting altered, in an uncontrolled way.
Apparently, this sort of 'chip-tunning' happens a lot.
Funny to see that a european company has 'chips' for the NSX, especially here in Holland, where only a dozen or so got sold over the last 11 years.
I know that most of these 'chips' are comming from the UK, but then, there are no parkinglots full of NSX's over there either.

The conditions for a good chip-tuning:
- Tuner will 'make' a chip for youre car on a dyno.
- Tuner will warranty any engine damage if caused by the chip (sure).
- Tuner will give you names and numbers off people who have there car done by them.


Remeber that this won't be done in a hour or so. So a good one might ask you to leave youre car for a couple of days.
Especialy a NSX will be very timeconsumming. Think about VTEC and VVIS, hell of a job if you ask me.

So howcome there are so many 'chip-tuners' who don't know what there doing ? Well, the answer is simple, looking at the list above, it would point out that a electronic tuner would need knowledge off:

- Micro electronics on a medium to high level.
- SMD soldering skills, on a high level. The PCB's ECU's are made off are very, very cheap, so soldering these is a challenge alone.
- extensive knowledge of micro-processors, and digital micro electronics.
- Knowledge of programming in assembly, if you know what sort of assembly you just read out of the ECU (remember there is no CPU number on them).

Next to the above skills (micro electronics students with experience only???), you will need very extensive knowledge on engine parameters!
Normally, these two don't go together very well.


Sorry for poor english,
Dutchy
 
In regards to chipping the NSX ECU, we are the only company in the US that we are aware of that can alter Fuel and Ignition tables at the ECU level. The Eprom has been discarded, and replaced with our own secured unit. If you are interested feel free to send an e-mail or call us.

Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports www.factorxmotorsports.com
 
Factor X Motorsports: How much HP/Tq gains on average do you see with the chip on a I/E/H NSX?

------------------

2001 QuickSilver Corvette Coupe - Not Stock

2002 Black Acura 3.2 TL/S
 
Factor X Motorsports

Same question overhere, how much would the gain be. I looked at the Dali-chip, read the text, looked the graphs. They also gave about +15HP. The NSX 3.0 engine is doing about 90HP/l at 8000rpm, the S2000 does 120HP/l at 9000 so some increases probably could be made. Granted the NSX is already pretty efficient but I have no doubt some gains could be made.

However, foremost in my mind is keeping the engine intact. At just 46000km my NSX is just starting it's adolescence, (and I'm back at it whenever I'm driving) and I really do want to enjoy this car for a long long time so I will not do any crazy stuff.
 
Originally posted by O-Ace:
How much HP/Tq gains on average do you see with the chip on a I/E/H NSX?
Same question, but all knowledgeable tuners are welcome to reply. Factor X, Hondata, Basch, RM Racing, Dali, SoS, etc.

The RM Racing site implies that the I/H/E setup can be optimized with a "stage 1" chip. Any replicable proof of this ??


from RM Racing site:
Header and muffler achieved a REAR WHEEL HORSE POWER gain of 18.8 peak. (As measured on a Dynojet's Model 248E Dynamometer at 1000 feet and a temperature of 96.2 degrees), with stock computer software.

The addition of aftermarket software with a header and muffler program achieved 24.7 peak horse power.


[This message has been edited by cojones (edited 29 May 2002).]
 
Dutchy, thanks for the explanation... this I think is what Mark J. had done to the Dali chip with the help of the knowledgeable japanese guy that programmed it (I imagine they did several days of dyno tests and parameter optimising in Japan before taking any conclusion). Factor X, I am sure, did the same...

But what about the "general" tuners? Right, they didn't ANY test and they alter some general parameter on all cars... you pay 700$ for a 20$ upgrade. And it is not really an upgrade in perfromance, probably the opposite...
frown.gif


The problem for us European? I always heard that Acura NSX chips are not compatible with Honda ones. Anyone that can tell me the opposite?
 
The gains are all relative to the potential of each engine. With the Factor X chip we are able to maximize your particular combination of Intake/Headers/Exhaust/P&P/etc. In regards to the Dali chip we are very, very, familiar with it. One of the partners was involved with the chip that was created for MJ. The Japanese tuner was Mr Koyama, a very highly regarded tuner in Japan.

Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports
 
Originally posted by gheba_nsx:
The problem for us European? I always heard that Acura NSX chips are not compatible with Honda ones.

Why ?????????

What are the differences between the two engines ?

Gheba, severaI years ago, I spoke with a guy from DigitPower. He told me that for each cars that DigitPower tunes they provides a before/after dyno's results to prove the HP/Torque's gain.

He even added "Especially for Ferrari's owners to show them the TRUE power of their car not the optimistical numbers which Ferrari claims !
wink.gif


David
 
Originally posted by Factor X Motorsports:
The gains are all relative to the potential of each engine. With the Factor X chip we are able to maximize your particular combination of Intake/Headers/Exhaust/P&P/etc.
Could we get your "rough approximation" of the HP and Torque gains for I/H/E + Type R tranny (4.23 R&P, close-ratio gears) ??
- gains WITH aftermarket chip
- gains WITH OEM ECU

If this is not available, can we get more info for an I/H/E setup.
 
Enzo,
it was the other "Enzo" (real name in that case) that told me that a friend of him in Germany wanted to install an RM chip (or another aftermarket for Acura) and it did not work. That because some basic parameter is different for the two cars and the car would not "run"...
confused.gif


I am still looking for somebody that can tell me, "go ahead!" and I'll order the Dali chip!
biggrin.gif


Yeah... DigitPower... Lino waited days for the dyno and never arrived (even after several phone calls)
frown.gif
 
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