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odometer rollback - Any lawyers out there?

Joined
15 May 2001
Messages
205
Location
Atlanta, GA USA
I think I'm pretty much screwed and I am now conviced there aren't any more honest people in the world. First of all thanks to ak and Slingshot for posting the free carfax link, I thought I'd try it on my car for fun. I guess that was a mistake. I purchased my car in March 2001 thinking it had 44,000 miles on it (and paying the price for a 44k mile car). According to this carfax it had about 104,000 miles on it. I'm guessing there isn't anything I can do about this now, but I thought I'd ask anyway. As some of you know I haven't had the best luck with my car (with it catching on fire and all) and I just learned another very very costly lesson from this car. I'm posting this so hopefully someone else will learn from my mistake. Thanks.

CARFAX searched over 2 billion records from nearly 800 sources and found 17 record(s) for this 1994 ACURA NSX (JH4NA1153RT000040).

Date:
Odometer Reading:
Source:
General Comments:


05/02/1995 12,000 Florida
Inspection Station
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Passed emissions inspection


08/08/1996 30,000 Florida
Inspection Station
West Palm Beach, FL
Passed emissions inspection


12/03/1996 Florida
Inspection Station
Miami, FL
Passed emissions inspection


12/12/1997 40,000 Florida
Inspection Station
West Palm Beach, FL
Passed emissions inspection


10/29/1998 72,000 Florida
Inspection Station
West Palm Beach, FL
Passed emissions inspection


07/12/2000 99,882 Auto Auction
Sold at auction
in Southeast Region
Listed as
a dealer vehicle


08/03/2000 39,999 Florida
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Tampa, FL
Title #0066037488
New owner reported
NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE TITLE ISSUED
First lien reported
Odometer reading recorded on 08/03/2000


09/18/2000 39,999 Florida
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Tampa, FL
Title #0066037488
NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE TITLE ISSUED
First lien reported
Odometer reading recorded on 08/03/2000


05/02/2001 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection


08/03/2001 39,999 Florida
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Tampa, FL
Title #0066037488
NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE TITLE ISSUED
Odometer reading recorded on 08/03/2000


08/23/2001 1,765 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
POTENTIAL ODOMETER ROLLBACK


09/13/2001 43,912 Georgia
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Marietta, GA
Title or registration issued


10/12/2001 Georgia
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Marietta, GA
Title #6523012562907
Registration issued
New owner reported


01/08/2002 46,972 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection


01/17/2002 Georgia
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Marietta, GA
Title #6523012562907
Registration issued


02/11/2002 Georgia
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Marietta, GA
Title #6523012562907
Registration issued


12/19/2002 52,595 Georgia
Inspection Station
Passed emissions inspection
Passed emissions inspection
 
man you must be gutted,my heart goes out to you,i was really pi~~ed off when i discovered my car was in the snap ring range after i bought it,but i think that is small potatoes when compered to your case,especially after paying an amount for a car that you was led to believe was a relativley low miler. lets just hope that you get no more probs with it.

all the best for your future NSXing


james
 
Dude, that sucks man. You mean you didn't run a carfax before buying the car?

I was also cheated when I got my '95 NSX which was suppose to be accident free. I ran a carfax and the car looked stunning visually. The owner assured me that it was accident free. I took it to my local dealer and they also told me the same. That it was flawless. Then later found out from an expert NSX mechanic that my car had frame damage from a previous accident. I felt more cheated than you in the sense that I took extra steps to make sure my car was perfect, but the Acura dealer made a wrong diagnosis. It's just bad luck I guess.

------------------
2001 NSX-T
- Bilstein Shocks
- '02 OEM Wheels
 
I was just wondering....Let just say, If Carfax and local Acura dealers are not good trusted resource or place to check (if you will)...Then what is good --> IF I do not know any NSX Expert(s) in my area.
I'm not in a big rush of buying one now, but it would definitely help for down the road NSX hunting. Any buying tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 
i would have thought that your carfax system would usually be pretty good (we have a similar thing in the uk called HPI).the nsx is such an expensive car to repair properly because of the aluminium that most owners who are unfortunate enough to have a bump would choose to have it done through the insurance company.
where you get the problem is where someone has paid for the repairs out of their own pocket,and so is not registered has having had a bump.
 
Originally posted by jaytip nsx:
i would have thought that your carfax system would usually be pretty good (we have a similar thing in the uk called HPI).the nsx is such an expensive car to repair properly because of the aluminium that most owners who are unfortunate enough to have a bump would choose to have it done through the insurance company.
where you get the problem is where someone has paid for the repairs out of their own pocket,and so is not registered has having had a bump.


I would have thought the same thing up until this weekend. I went and checked out my mother-in-law's car for the heck of it, since I know she's had it in 2 MAJOR accidents that both were reported to the police and the insurance company. Carfax has no record of the car ever being in an accident. In fact I think carfax only checks to see if the car is totaled or not. If its not a total loss then I'm not sure if it ever shows up on carfax. Makes me really worried about my NSX. I'm going to be under the car this weekend, anything I can look for to see if there has ever been frame damage? (I'm paranoid about my car)
 
I think you just need experience in eyeing what a car should look like at a certain mileage. Wear on the seat is a giveaway but can be solved by replacing the seat. An accident can be fixed but an expert will notice it.
Used cars are now priced at a 5 year low, if you have doubts about a car walk away. There is always another one.
I am not an expert and when I bought a used car from the new car dealer I paid more and I never got the car checked at all and I didn't get burned.
 
Hi, Steve,

I am sorry to hear that...
frown.gif
 
I am very hesitant to give legal advice on this or any other forum (I don't like to mix work and pleasure) but in a case as painful to observe as this one, it seems like an exception might be in order.

You should talk to a Georgia lawyer immediately (I assume you bought the car in Georgia?). The cause of action here is obviously fraud (civil, although a criminal action might also work to your benefit). It is of utmost importance that you identify the statute of limitations (time limit)for your claim, AND whether the time limit was "tolled" (the clock did not start ticking) until you discovered (or should reasonably have discovered) the fraud.

Bottom line: don't give up, you may still have time to seek relief against the seller.
 
Originally posted by TN_NSX:
I was just wondering....Let just say, If Carfax and local Acura dealers are not good trusted resource or place to check (if you will)...Then what is good --> IF I do not know any NSX Expert(s) in my area.

You need to use the best resources available.

Carfax can provide useful information, such as in this example. However, Carfax is often incomplete. They are limited by their sources of information. I don't know if they collect title and registration information from all fifty states, or if some of the states don't provide this information. If an accident occurs and no police report is filed and the car is not totalled, chances are that Carfax will never hear about it. If a VIN is typed in error on a state record, it won't show up on Carfax. hendu's is not the first instance I have heard of a car being totalled and Carfax having no record of it. Basically, problems shown on Carfax are cause for concern, but a clean Carfax does not mean that there is no cause for concern.

You will need to find an NSX expert in the area where the seller is located, not your own area.

Basically, all you can do is find the best NSX resources available, and make a decision. For example, Vytas bought his car from a seller in a state where there are no Acura dealers. I'm sure he found out what he could from the seller, and bought a plane ticket there, knowing that all he could do if the car did not look as advertised was fly back, but couldn't have an NSX mechanic check it out beforehand.
 
Originally posted by RyRy210:
Dude, that sucks man. You mean you didn't run a carfax before buying the car?


Nope, I was too excited about finally getting my nsx I forgot all about it. I won't make that mistake again.


Originally posted by DeHaldaswerth:


You should talk to a Georgia lawyer immediately (I assume you bought the car in Georgia?).

Nope, I bought the car in Tampa, FL. The car has had three owners including myself and the guy I bought it from only had it for about 6 months (it was for sale 2 of those months). I know he bought it from a dealership and I'm guessing he found out and tried to get rid of it as soon as he could.

[This message has been edited by stevefromatl (edited 24 February 2003).]
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
You need to use the best resources available.

Carfax can provide useful information, such as in this example. However, Carfax is often incomplete. They are limited by their sources of information. I don't know if they collect title and registration information from all fifty states, or if some of the states don't provide this information. If an accident occurs and no police report is filed and the car is not totalled, chances are that Carfax will never hear about it. If a VIN is typed in error on a state record, it won't show up on Carfax. hendu's is not the first instance I have heard of a car being totalled and Carfax having no record of it. Basically, problems shown on Carfax are cause for concern, but a clean Carfax does not mean that there is no cause for concern.

You will need to find an NSX expert in the area where the seller is located, not your own area.

Basically, all you can do is find the best NSX resources available, and make a decision. For example, Vytas bought his car from a seller in a state where there are no Acura dealers. I'm sure he found out what he could from the seller, and bought a plane ticket there, knowing that all he could do if the car did not look as advertised was fly back, but couldn't have an NSX mechanic check it out beforehand.

Thanks for the info nsxtasy...I'll make sure all the proper inspections will taken place before drive it home.
 
For fun, I recently ran a carfax for my 3000GT that I sold to a gentlemen in texas a few years ago. I was the original owner of the car and sent in all the documents to the DMW. Well, the carfax has only 1 entry, that it was sold new in CA with 10 miles on the odometer in '96. Nothing else. The DMV knows that the car is now in Texas since I sent in the release of liability form along with the new owner's info, but the carfax has no other entries other than the 1st entry I stated above.

------------------
2001 NSX-T
- Bilstein Shocks
- '02 OEM Wheels
 
Stevefromatl I totally feel for you. You should spend a bit of money consulting with an attorney about your legal recovery rights. Unfortunately, a private seller does not have the legal responsiblilty of disclosure as a dealer who is licensed and bonded. However, if the seller learned of this fraudulent act, and attempted to recover from the selling dealer, there may be sufficient intent to defraud you to obtain some relief from the seller. Just my .02 non legal opinion. Best of luck!!!

[This message has been edited by Fun2romein (edited 24 February 2003).]
 
hmm would what dealer the car was at i'd like to know.
if i can do anything for ya down here let me know.
also your title should have said "NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE" on it which would have been a give away for you to reaserch the car.
 
stevefromatl,

I will state first that I am not a lawyer (I don't even play one on TV), so I don't know as much as the others here. However, I will make a few comments with the hope that the attorneys here will correct me if I'm wrong.

If you decide to pursue litigation against the seller, this would be civil litigation. (Prosecuting the seller on criminal charges would be the responsibility of the government in the appropriate jurisdiction.) Your objective would be to go after him for compensatory damages and, possibly, punitive damages. Compensatory damages consist of the actual amount that he caused you to lose, and this would equal the difference in value between a '94 with 44K miles and one with 104K miles. This might be around $7K (e.g. $28K vs $35K). Punitive damages could be collected if the seller was demonstrably at fault, such as if he were aware of the mileage misrepresentation, and are often set at 2-3 times the amount of compensatory damages. But you would have to prove some sort of intent to defraud on his part, which may not be easy. This should give you an idea of how much you might be able to collect if you pursue him through the courts.
 
One thing which is still good that is :
The car did conviced that its 44k when you bought it , means its in very good condition atleast!
 
Steve, That sucks I am very sorry I hope it works out for you. If are going for compensation you should also consider the price of 90k mile tune up that needs done. Since you thought this was not an issue when you bought the car with 44k. Or have you already done the service?
 
I feel terrible for you and hope that you can resolve this situation. What I find interesting on the Carfax report is that once the car was issued a clear title in Georgia. How was the TMU washed off the record?

I think that we have come to the realization that even if a car looks good, and even though the seller seems respectable, we still need to be cautious. It's a shame that there are dishonest people out there, especially in the NSX arena. I think the only way to prevent buying a car with a negative history is to buy one brand new from an authorized dealer. Something that I am now considering when I decide to purchase my next car.

Good luck and keep us informed.
 
Originally posted by Dr.Lane:
It's a shame that there are dishonest people out there, especially in the NSX arena. I think the only way to prevent buying a car with a negative history is to buy one brand new from an authorized dealer. Something that I am now considering when I decide to purchase my next car.

I don't agree that buying new is the only answer. There are many sellers who are extremely fastidious about maintaining their cars, and many who are extremely honest. You can often tell, just based on their ad listings; they should be able to document their claims, such as by providing service receipts or the name of the dealer/mechanic where the car was serviced, who can often provide computer printouts of what was done and when. In fact, I bet if we documented all the NSX purchases made from NSXprime members, you would find many times more smooth transactions than problematic ones. I am not claiming that you won't have a problem with an NSXprime member, only that the members here tend to be more knowledgeable and you're more likely to find that well-cared-for gem here.

However, Dr. Lane, you're correct; you do indeed avoid the risks of such problems when you buy new. That's why, for many folks, it's worth the higher price you pay for a new car.
 
Steve,
I am shocked! I can't explain enough how sorry I am. I know this degrades your thrill of the NSX significantly. I hope you obtain a substantial financial recovery, and still have the opportunity to enjoy the ownership of an NSX.
 
Thanks for all the support and advice!!! I'll try and answer everyone's questions. I have no idea what dealership the previous owner bought it from, all I know is he said somewhere in miami. The reason the title didn't show up NOT ACTUAL MILEAGE is because the title some how magically disappeared! I let my bank handle this and reapply for the new title that's why it doesn't show up that it changed owners until Oct 2001 instead of March (meanwhile I got a ticket for not having my car registered in time). I'd love to try and get something out of it, but it would all have to take place in Florida. The main issue is I would have to be able to prove who turned it back. It was either the orginal owner, the car auction people, or the dealership that bought it. I still have the last owners email, I guess I could attempt to email him and if I'm lucky he might reply. He had the car advertised on nsxprime and he was the one who told me about the site.

Since I have bought the car 2 years ago I have put a little over 9,000 miles on it. The car has caught on fire (day after I bought it $11,000 covered mostly by insurance), the title has been lost, I've had the timing belt and water pump done, a major tune up and valve adjustment, a new clutch (because it was installed wrong). The car still needs an evaporator and a motor mount.

The car is in great condition otherwise. The passenger seat looks like it has never been sat in and there is little wear on the drivers. After I bought it and found all thsese problems I thought this car has lived a rough life for only 44k miles, but now I realize the original owner kept it in great shape.
 
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