North American synthetic standard VS European synthetic standard

Hi Prime members,

I was at a few local shops and I learned something new. I am guessing I am out of date because I found out that North American oil standards are different than the European standards. The mechanic at the shops I visited said that the North American synthetic oil is not 100% synthetic and the European synthetic is 100%.

They say that the oil base in North American ones is not synthetic and they add synthetic stuff into it and make it synthetic but in the European oils the oil base is synthetic and they add synthetic stuff into it which make it 100% synthetic. They say that you get better performance and optimal engine protection when using European synthetic oil.

There are many brands such as MOTUL, ELF, Liqui Molly etc. from Europe but most of them I noticed come only in 5W-30 so not sure if it is ok for the NSX engine because the user manual says 10W-30. Mechanics all said there is no problem in using the 5W-30 European synthetic oils in the NSX.

They also said that the high-end European engines need that 100% synthetic European oil but Japanese engines do not really need them.

For the NSX engine it is better to use European synthetic oils for better performance and engine wear??? I have a 1992 with 173,500 miles and I am worried about engine wear more than performance.

Thanks prime members for your input :smile:

I am not an oil expert but I believe once again we cannot always trust mechanics on things like this. Mobil says on their web page that Mobil 1 is a fully synthetic oil. If they lied - the false advertising consequences would be significant. Oil geeks such as those that visit http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ know ten times as much about oil as your mechanics.

Amsoil claims 100% synthetic. These company's reputations depend on consumer confidence.

I'm sure Red Line, etc. have similar statements.

The mechanic at the shops I visited said that the North American synthetic oil is not 100% synthetic and the European synthetic is 100%.

I would ask the Mechanic, why he give up his job as A Chemical Engineer, to become a Mechanic!!

Bram

hofffam said:

I am not an oil expert but I believe once again we cannot always trust mechanics on things like this. Mobil says on their web page that Mobil 1 is a fully synthetic oil. If they lied - the false advertising consequences would be significant. Oil geeks such as those that visit http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ know ten times as much about oil as your mechanics.

Amsoil claims 100% synthetic. These company's reputations depend on consumer confidence.

I'm sure Red Line, etc. have similar statements.

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m1 is lying.

they switched over to a group 3 base a while back. thats why i stayed away from m1 and went royal purple which is also a group 3 but their additive protected better according to stress test i have seen.

its all about definition. if the definition of synthetic is different.... m1 could be full syn in their mind but if the 100% full synthetic group 4 oil standard is applied it is not.

call up their reps and ask them if M1 has GROUP 4 base, they'll be dancing all over to give you mixed answer.

Amsol always gets me too. I dont trust them worth a crap since their biggest advocates are also sales rep for the product.

I have NEVER seen an amsol review that did not end with, '' you can buy a case for xxxxxx"

maybe great stuff, maybe all hype. Definitly not letting the sales people tell me how awesome their product is.

Some interesting reading.........

ZDDP

http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30162

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

M1 is ok, Amsoil is good stuff, iil analysis at BITOG confirms this. I just got done running Amsoil in my car and placebo or not, but I love it. It made the engine quiter, at idel, which I think is a good thing.

What's the best though is www.renewablelube.com.
Tell 'em Paul from Seattle sent ya.

MCM said:

Some interesting reading.........

ZDDP

http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30162

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

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just read that forum.... speaking of valve chatter when cold.... my ferrari 355 is making so much noise when I went to Mobil 1 10w40 it was rediculous!!!!! made it sound like a totally different car. before the oil change with OLD oil, it started up quite and was real nice. After the oil change the car was stupid loud.

pos oil. i been telling all my customers to stay away from mobil1 for the last year and thats why i started stocking royal purple oil. Little more money, but my turbo cars love the stuff.

m1 is selling cheaper group 3 mix for the same money as their previous g4 mix. just on principle it gets me. I also am no longer gasing my cars at Mobil. :tongue:

I hope there is some difference. Mobil 1 oils (5w-50, 0w-40, etc.) cost about 30 US dollars per quart here in Europe. From this thread I gather that's about five or six times as much as in the USA. Either the oils are different here or we're getting totally ripped off!

Bram said:

The mechanic at the shops I visited said that the North American synthetic oil is not 100% synthetic and the European synthetic is 100%.

I would ask the Mechanic, why he give up his job as A Chemical Engineer, to become a Mechanic!!

Bram

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LOL

"30 US dollars per quart here in Europe"

Crazy.......... How much is regular dino oil?

By the qt M1 its about $6.00 - 7.00 at most shops.

A 5 qt jug at Wallmart is about $22.00 (great deal)

greenberet said:

Either the oils are different here or we're getting totally ripped off!

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-> ripped off.

RON98 said:

they switched over to a group 3 base a while back. thats why i stayed away from m1 and went royal purple which is also a group 3 but their additive protected better according to stress test i have seen.
its all about definition. if the definition of synthetic is different.... m1 could be full syn in their mind but if the 100% full synthetic group 4 oil standard is applied it is not.I have NEVER seen an amsol review that did not end with, '' you can buy a case for xxxxxx"maybe great stuff, maybe all hype. Definitly not letting the sales people tell me how awesome their product is.

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Just read this on Royal Purple and gives me second thoughts about the oil. Mobile 1 performed very well in their test.
Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Moly in their oil. Moly is a solid, specifically banned by Cummins, due to excessive valve train wear.
Moly (Molybdenum Disulfide) is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite.This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals.
http://www.performancemotoroil.com/Royal_Purple_info.html
http://www.performancemotoroil.com/Dyno_test.html

Guys,
It's just oil -- and it's alot of advertising. It amazes me how much discussion there is about motor oil results done in lab tests. Dino or synthetic; Mobile 1, Royal Purple, or whatever; just change it often and your car will be fine.

NSXFRIEND said:

Just read this on Royal Purple and gives me second thoughts about the oil. Mobile 1 performed very well in their test.
Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Moly in their oil. Moly is a solid, specifically banned by Cummins, due to excessive valve train wear.
Moly (Molybdenum Disulfide) is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite.This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals.
http://www.performancemotoroil.com/Royal_Purple_info.html
http://www.performancemotoroil.com/Dyno_test.html

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yes coming from amsoil.....

btw do you have a link to your website where you sell the stuff by the case?

the test i have seen are independent. not from some dude that sells amsoil.

RON98 said:

yes coming from amsoil.....

btw do you have a link to your website where you sell the stuff by the case?

the test i have seen are independent. not from some dude that sells amsoil.

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No I do not sell mobile oil for a living, I am a clincal professional, duno why you took it so personal, if you have the resources and research plz provide the results.

Amsoil or Royal Purple I welcome the analysis.

mickeylex your right stick to factory 10-30 you will be fine.

mickeylex said:

Guys,
It's just oil -- and it's alot of advertising. It amazes me how much discussion there is about motor oil results done in lab tests. Dino or synthetic; Mobile 1, Royal Purple, or whatever; just change it often and your car will be fine.

Click to expand...

Agree. Remind the 16 years of developement since the oil specs for the NSX have been released. Every engine oil which meets the Porsche standards is good enough.

FACTS:

Compared with conventional oil, synthetic oil is more resistant to breakdown at high temperatures, and has better flow characteristics at low temperatures. The only downside with synthetic is its higher cost.

The difference in performance between conventional oil and synthetic oil is far greater than the difference between one brand of synthetic oil and another.

Mobil has NOT decreased the quality of its Mobil 1 synthetic oil. They have reformulated it six times since its introduction, and every time they have improved its performance in every way. That's why it is specified as the factory fill for many high-end automobiles, including the upcoming NSX replacement.

nsxtasy said:

That's why it is specified as the factory fill for many high-end automobiles, including the upcoming NSX replacement.

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huhu, how do you know AND where is it?

NSXFRIEND said:

No I do not sell mobile oil for a living, I am a clincal professional, duno why you took it so personal, if you have the resources and research plz provide the results.

Amsoil or Royal Purple I welcome the analysis.

mickeylex your right stick to factory 10-30 you will be fine.

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i had this good one i think i posted on prime about a year ago.

never could find it again. it was on commadore a mag from australia.

ill see if i can dig it up. not taking it personal. just look at the test... its done by amsoil. nothing independent about it.

MCM said:

Crazy.......... How much is regular dino oil?

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I checked at my local discount auto parts store (Auto Teile Unger) today.

• ATU own-brand 15w-40 dino oil: €3.00/liter ($4.11/qt) in a 5 liter jug
• Valvoline 15w-40 dino oil: €3.60/liter ($4.93/qt) in a 5 liter jug
• Valvoline Syn Power 5w-40 synthetic: €9.99/liter ($13.70/qt) in a 1 liter bottle
• Castrol RS 10w-60 synthetic: €15.00/l ($20.56/qt) in a 5 liter jug
• Mobil 1 Emission System Protection 5w-30 synthetic: €20.00/l ($27,42/qt) in a 5 liter jug
• Mobil 1 Emission System Protection 5w-30 synthetic: €21.99/l ($30.15/qt) in a 1 liter bottle
• Mobil 1 Rally Formula 5w-50 synthetic: €21.99/l ($30.15/qt) in a 1 liter bottle

At my local Esso (ExxonMobil) gas station:

• Mobil 1 Emission System Protection 5w-30 synthetic: €30.50/l ($41,82/qt) in a 1 liter bottle

The synthetic oils with big brand names cost a hell of a lot more in Europe than in North America. But getting back to the original question: does anyone know if they are any different?

wow why so much??

we should start shipping oil to our euro nsx members

goldNSX said:

huhu, how do you know AND where is it?

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I was told by Mobil engineers who were at the ALMS races this year, giving seminars. Also, they have a slick shiny brochure listing all the cars using Mobil 1 as factory fill, and sure enough, it included the NSX replacement in the listing.

RON98 said:

wow why so much??

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Because of the currency exchange rate. Right now U.S. dollars are not worth much at all.

RON98 said:

we should start shipping oil to our euro nsx members

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You may laugh, but the low value of the dollar is actually a big help to sales of U.S. goods overseas. So what you propose (in jest, I assume) is not such a bad idea.

nsxtasy said:

You may laugh, but the low value of the dollar is actually a big help to sales of U.S. goods overseas. So what you propose (in jest, I assume) is not such a bad idea.

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sorry. im not laughing at all

I import from Asia. and in the last 4 month my cost / item has increase about 10% that's before shipping costs.

im not laughing at all :frown:

but hey that's business. :tongue:

lower value may be a big help to sales from us, but who would buy from us when china is still cheaper.

also we as citizens are getting a purchasing power cut.

cost of living and goods are sky rocketing.

we all need gas. its 3.29 gallon here. I spend 300-400$ a month on gas alone. used to spend 120-150$.

that's 150-250 I no longer have to buy things I dont need.:biggrin:

I do ok from the parts business. the shop is just something I have a passion for and love to do. I cant imagine an average American family on FIXED income keeping pace with the ridiculous increase in cost of living and an decrease in their purchasing power. its a double whammies

gas to work? or food for the kids... that's a choice that no human should be forced to make. All at the same time Chevron is posting RECORD breaking 14.1 BILLION! last year.

WTF + our gov is giving them money to do business.

14,000,000,000 <--- that's 14 BILLION! big honking number.

also cost of goods and food are going up. so we can buy less with my money.

cost of shipping has gone up too. USPS jacked up their rates by 100%+ for packages. 2 cents stamp high my as. use to pay about 350 a month to usps now im doing about 700$ with 20% less packages.

fuel surcharges for import shipping is getting ridiculous also

as the US consumer is expecting cheaper and cheaper goods, our cost of doing business is increase at a hasty pace.

our decelerating economy growth based on borrowed money to finance our consumption is un sustainable.

we cant always give piece of paper to china saying " this PAPER is worth 100$, now give us 100$ worth of ACTUAL Physical goods for this piece of paper"

eventually, a .001 cent paper is just that and the world will no longer finance our spending addiction.

Last time I checked EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN owns Every SINGLE CHINESE about 6000$ or was it 8000$. one of the two. the reason I dont remember is cause I fainted and cracked my head on my coffee table.

conceder that we have 320,000,000 of US for 1,700,000,000 of Chinese. that's a pretty big number.

dont get me started in depth about the economy.

OOOOOOPPPS! WIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLD RANT :tongue:

RON98 said:

wow why so much??

we should start shipping oil to our euro nsx members

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1st why so expensive:
a) they have VAT (value added tax, don't know exactly in Germany but over Europe it's 18-22%) and US don't
b) Impact of EURO - and inflation

IMHO
1. Syntetic vs Conventional
the difference is that syntetic oils has full chemistic formula, every molecula is produced with all the elements in. like alphabet from a to z.
conventional might have shortages within it's moleculas, like every normal conventional products thus some moleculs are shorted, like from a to z, but no "t"
2. Notations - single viscosity grade oils:
0w - 25W - it's about low temperature viscosity (pumping and rotating abilities) for winter conventional oil and correspond only to viscosity of the oil in low temperatures (below 0 Celsius - less 32 Farenheit). Nothing more, nothing less
SAE 20 - SAE 60 tell us about kinematic viscosity min/max at 100 celsius degrees (212 Farengheit) and min at 150 Celsius (302 Farengheit).
3. multiviscosity-grade oils should correspond to both high and low temperature conditions, almost all oils we are using now are multiviscosity. In case someone is interested I may send a table of grades.
4. Semi syntetic - should be clear that it's mix of oils, since syntetic oil is rarely expensive. Fully syntetic
5. The syntetic oil itself, sorry to say, is almost the same, and it is produced "from the one can" and differ only by it's additives. There are much additives that makes the people happy, wide range that finally making difference from one oil to another (and affecting also price) Beleive, there is no room to describe all of them.
6. Important.
Actually there are important standard (for gasoline engines):
API Engine Service Classification System. Makeing the long story short there are:
API SA, API SB, API SC, API SD, API SE, API SF, API SG, API SH & API SJ
at the moment only two last cathegories are valid. Those oils have passed test according to qualification of API should have a donut mark - high quality and energy conserving high quality- see atachements. In case oil is matching highest standard of API - ILSAC it has a "Starburst" symbol - the highest grade that only to apply for 0w; 5w and 10w - see attachement.

Why my girlfriend saying I'm boring...

greenberet said:

The synthetic oils with big brand names cost a hell of a lot more in Europe than in North America. But getting back to the original question: does anyone know if they are any different?

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What I remember from what many mechanics told me and also speaking to some buddies is that in North America the oil base does not have to be synthetic and they add synthetic additives to it and they can call it 100% synthetic and that is a North American Standard.

In Europe the oil base has to be is synthetic and the additives are also synthetic therefore making 100% synthetic and that is their standard.

Different countries have different standards. They even told me that there was some dispute that the European countries had some conflict saying that the North American synthetic oil is not 100% but North America responded that this our standard of what 100% means.

I just want to know is there a difference because I have a high mileage NSX and I want to use the best oil for maximum protection against engine wear. I would assume that if the European standard is 100% compared to North American standard then using European synthetic should be better.

Thanks Prime members for all the input. :smile: