The official E85 thread.

A few people thinks its a good idea to start a thread on this topic since it's been brought up more than one before and about performance VS cost.

I am a mechanic and performance enthusiast.

What I am lead to believe is even though E85 costs less per gallon the amount of energy per unit is less than lets say 91 premium gas. So even though you are filling up for less in your tank, it will take more "e85" to make the power.

However people have said interesting things regarding octane and tuning which i think all of us here would be interested in learning about. If anyone would like to add more about other alternatives feel free.

Yeah, E85 as a fuel is not really that impressive, especially when you consider how much it takes in terms of crops/land use, and the effect that has on the rising cost of food. Not that it's the only factor, or even the largest, but I would want to see a performance gain to offset the negatives. I don't think it's even carbon neutral when you look at the fuel burned to harvest, process, and transport the stuff.

I want to see direct ethanol injection as an octane booster for high compression turbo engines.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/04/25/ethanol-boosted-turbocharged-gasoline-engine/

Check it out. They project 30% improvement in fuel economy, without having to worry about batteries. Less weight, less cost, less pollution with the metals involved... I can't think of a single drawback so far.

Nick

Hasdrubal said:

Yeah, E85 as a fuel is not really that impressive, especially when you consider how much it takes in terms of crops/land use, and the effect that has on the rising cost of food. Not that it's the only factor, or even the largest, but I would want to see a performance gain to offset the negatives. I don't think it's even carbon neutral when you look at the fuel burned to harvest, process, and transport the stuff.

I want to see direct ethanol injection as an octane booster for high compression turbo engines.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/04/25/ethanol-boosted-turbocharged-gasoline-engine/

Check it out. They project 30% improvement in fuel economy, without having to worry about batteries. Less weight, less cost, less pollution with the metals involved... I can't think of a single drawback so far.

Nick

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Damn! This is what we need! I always believed the market and Entrepernuership solves worlds problems, not government interference.

Private industry always comes up with better solutions than government... once the incentive for profit becomes known. The rising cost of oil will make stuff like this more common, and really, it's time for some new tech anyway.

Anyone else have anything? There's some neat stuff out there, I'm sure of it.

Nick

WEll my brother's F350 7.3 diesel gets around 15mpg tops...

I want to increase his gas mpg yet also give him more torque. However he is a business man and if the cost outweights benefits then he wont do it :redface:

I have not used E85, but it makes sense that it would not produce as much power per liter since ethanol is a much smaller hydrocarbon (only 2 carbons), whereas most molecules in automotive gas are much larger. Therefore, you will probably end up using more fuel just to get up to speed. Either way, alternative fuels are still burning something.

Anyone know anything new about cellulosic ethanol? The big problem with the current supply is that it is made from food materials. Corn, sugarcane, sugar beets, you name it, poor people are mad at us for putting it in cars rather than eating it.

Cellulosic ethanol would be made from the inedible stalks and such, corn husks, any material made from (as the name implies) cellulose rather than glucose or whatever other kind of sugars they're using.

Yes, it is still burning something, but if a viable way to produce ethanol from stuff that would otherwise be thrown away, it could take some of the strain off the oil refineries.

And Swift, imagine that same truck running gas to get the same torque- probably get 10-12 mpg. It's still an improvement in efficiency, but off such an abysmal starting number that it would never be attractive to me.

Nick

Ethonal subsidies are just stooooopid

I can tell you that the ethanol subsidies have driven food costs through the roof at my restaurants. If you think about it, the crops that are driving the price inflation are the foundation grains that are not only basic food sources, but are also the mainstay for animal feed.

The most ridiculous thing about the whole program (besides the failed concept of governments driving fundamental market changes through artificial pricing) is that gas mileage falls so much when you burn e85 that the actual savings in fossil fuels is trivial. In my personal experience, 15% ethanol produces 8-12% lower gas mileage. What's the point of that?

Food costs have gone through the roof, but you can't say it's because of ethanol. The markets for corn, wheat, etc. are global markets. According to the UN, about 0.8% of farmland is used to grow biofuels. On the other hand, the harvest in some crops was 17% below expectations due to droughts (South America and Australia), floods, etc. Yes, biofuels are one factor contributing to higher global prices, but they are not (yet) one of the big influences.

Bad recent harvests, rapidly increasing demand from China and India, more people globally eating meat (you need to feed an animal about 7 pounds of corn or soybeans to get 1 pound of meat), and financial institutions ploughing money into agricultural commodities instead of mortgage-based instruments all have a much greater impact on supply and demand. Biofuels are easy to blame and it's psychologically understandable to do so, but the main reasons for the recently rising global food prices lie elsewhere.

David, have you had anyone asking at your restaurants for used oil to convert to biodiesel? That's another fuel that seems interesting as an idea, but lousy as a mainstream thing. Imagine if a large number of people started doing the home brew biodiesel thing, and there were bidding wars or fistfights at McDonalds over the french fry remnants.

Here's one on the political side- I read on iht.com that Indians are angry over reports of increasing third world meat consumption as the cause of rising food prices. To the point, even, that some of their politicians are saying Americans should as a nation go on a diet.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/13/business/food.php

Interesting take on it, I thought. Seriously, considering how high our standard of living is, how much right do we have to condemn other nations for driving prices up by trying to live the same way?

My personal feeling is that the market will just sort itself out. Of course, that's what I say about most things.

Nick

greenberet said:

Food costs have gone through the roof, but you can't say it's because of ethanol.

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I can and will. The price of corn has doubled since the subsidies started and corn is a foundation crop. World crop cycles move between over and under-supply on a regular basis and there has never, ever been an effect like this.

Hasdrubal said:

David, have you had anyone asking at your restaurants for used oil to convert to biodiesel?

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Not so far, but I don't expect that to happen. We don't use a lot of oil, its not recovered as easily as with fryers and I think we are about to convert to rice oil (for the health benefits). The ethanol program has closed the price delta between rice oil and the less healthy (but far more common) options.

My personal feeling is that the market will just sort itself out. Of course, that's what I say about most things.
Nick

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It won't because our government isn't letting the market move as it should - if we weren't running these socialist programs in the first place, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

Corn is cheaper today (in inflation-adjusted terms) than it was in 1995 - before there were biofuels. There have always been price spikes and we're in the middle of one now. Hopefully we're at the end of one since the price of wheat has fallen by 20% in the last weeks.

The attached chart shows the price of various basic food commodities since 1970 in nominal terms - not adjusted for inflation. If you take inflation into account, the real price of basic foodstuffs has been falling for decades and the current price spike is smaller than the one we had in 1973 during the oil crisis.

Yes prices are high, but there have always been spikes. If the prices stay as high as they are for the next years - that would be unique. If the prices fall again, this will have been just another spike of the kind that are bound to happen if you have supply and demand that are both inelastic in the short to medium term.

Alright, I don't know how much inflation should be skewing my reading of that graph, and I am by no means an expert, but it looks to me like there has been a pronounced increase from about '02-'03 to now. Ten years from now that may or may not be an isolated spike, but I'm not so sure this time.

The difference here, that I'm not sure the market has seen ever before, is that you have a few giant countries trying to industrialize at a frantic pace. India and China between them represent what, a third of the world population? Over two billion people, at any rate. Consider long term what increased meat consumption from two billion people could do to food prices. Or energy prices, if even 5% of those people bought cars and started driving, not to mention how many of them might want electricity.

Nick

It just hit me how far this thread is from its original focus. Especially considering it's in the FI part of the forum.

Anyone have any thoughts on fuels as they actually relate to cars?

Nick

Hasdrubal said:

It just hit me how far this thread is from its original focus. Especially considering it's in the FI part of the forum.

Anyone have any thoughts on fuels as they actually relate to cars?

Nick

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Good point. Ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline so you can run more spark advance or higher compression before you get detonation, allowing you to make more horsepower. That's why Koenigsegg's ethanol powered engines make more power than their gasoline powered engines.

However, ethanol has a higher tendency to corrode metals and degrade rubber seals. For an engine to work safely with ethanol, the aluminum and the rubber seals in the fuel delivery system need to be of a higher grade than would be necessary with gasoline. Aluminum parts that are fine with gasoline may get a thick white corrosion layer with ethanol and the rubber seals may start leaking.

In Germany, E5 is the only gasoline sold at pumps and all car manufacturers have said that all the cars they have ever made are compatible with it. There was a plan to make E10 the standard gasoline in Germany as of next year. BMW said all gasoline powered cars it ever made are compatible with E10 except for a few M models. Mercedes said the same except for a few gasoline direct injection models. Unfortunately, not all manufacturers used aluminum alloys that don't corrode and rubber seals that don't degrade in the presence of E10. Honda did not state its older vehicles are compatible with E10 and a colleague told me the worst corrosion he has seen due to ethanol was in older Honda motorcycle carbeurators, which turned all white inside. Since many manufacturers did not state their older cars would work fine with E10, the plans to introduce it as the standard gasoline grade in Germany have been scrapped.

Until Honda states what (if any) level of ethanol above E5 can be safely used in an NSX, I'm not going to put it into my tank.

Sort of like methanol, then. Although, I think it's something like 50% more fuel for the same power with that.

Most of the deal with E85 has been cars that can run on both, but if you can't take full advantage of the extra octane (timing, sure, but you can't raise your compression), then it seems like you're just wasting money.

It think the only guys who would really enjoy E85 are the ones running turbos. As long as they can crank the boost, they can really make full use of the fuel.

Nick

I have a NSX Turbo but for moment I don't use E85.
I only use E85 in my Suzuki Swift Sport NA 125hp, and with a good tune I have 135hp with E85.
With gasoline 93 I can make 500km
With E85 I can make 450km

General e85 talk
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1812349

All motor/ high compression with/ without turbo
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1908730

I am thinking about running e85 with a 13.5:1 compression piston all motor ITB... What do you guys think? Am I way over my head?

The one thing I did not see mentioned was how much fossil fuel; gas and diesel along with natural gas / electricity is used to accommodate the production of a gallon of E85.

I have seen estimates of 1 gal of fossil fuel to help produce 1.2 to 1.3 gal of E85. If that has any basis in fact ( even as low as half of that number ) E85 would be a step going backwards.

Maybe.. but 105 octane and about 3 bucks a gallon will beat the price of any other race gas out there.

gsrboy said:

General e85 talk
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1812349

All motor/ high compression with/ without turbo
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1908730

I am thinking about running e85 with a 13.5:1 compression piston all motor ITB... What do you guys think? Am I way over my head?

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depends what engine, b series you may be pushing the limites pretty good, k series will be fine at 13.5 with e85, but your in oregon??? WHERE THE HECK DO YOU GET E85????? ive found like 3 area's in oregon concetrated around the portlandish area

fullracehonda said:

depends what engine, b series you may be pushing the limites pretty good, k series will be fine at 13.5 with e85, but your in oregon??? WHERE THE HECK DO YOU GET E85????? ive found like 3 area's in oregon concetrated around the portlandish area

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Yeah I am talking about the nsx motor.. Its so hard finding a bare nsx block eh? I live in the portland area.

I know I don't have many posts here, and I don't use e85 in the NSX, but I do use it on other cars.

First and foremost; gasoline does make more BTU's than E85 does. So it does require more e85 to make the same MPG's as gasoline.

You do need to run 30% (roughly)more fuel. So if you are tuned, and your duty cycle on your injectors is high, I don't think it's a good idea for you.

The finally two con's of e85; 1) e85 is not everywhere, and 2) each blend of e85 is different. I know here in TX, our e85 blend is 105.

Here are the pro's of e85 though.

More octane! However octane isn't everything, it is important but not everything.

The greatest thing (in my opinion) of e85 is the flame front. E85 burns much more cooler than regular gasoline. On my Ka-t powered 240sx, I was running 20 psi, and it leaned out once! And I went back and checked my datalog; no knock.

At first I wasn't sure, and I thought maybe the knock sensor failed; went ahead and check it, and the knock sensor was still good.

A lot of people run advanced timing without fear of knock.

Personally is e85 worth it?

Yes for power, no for daily driving/long trips. However you can make different tunes. Is the power there? Most definitely. almost all cars (made after 89) can run AT least a 50/50 mix.

Remember though, that you must replace your fuel filter before you will notice a difference. E85 is an alcohol, so when it enters the gas tank, it will clean everything away! So what I usually do is run the gas tank until the gas light is on, then get three gallons of e85, and three gallons of 93, I run that until the gas light is on again, replace the fuel filter, and run e85 then do a quick tune.

Or you can do the same step, but mix the e85 and 93 (to an almost perfect mix of 50/50, and make sure you use the e85 first) and go give it awhirl.

If you live in a colder climate, I don't recommend e85 unless you have something you can tune on the fly. Since e85 is an alcohol it retains a bit of water overnight so it will a bit hard to start in the morning. After that, it will go away.

If you don't know what you are doing, don't experiment, try it with your wife's car first (just kidding). Check around though Subaru and DSM people have switched to e85. Doing a quick search through NASIOC or evolutionM will open your eyes.

Oh and about it eating rubber lines; that's not true. I (and a few others) have taken metal fuel lines and rubber lines and soaked them in e85 in a sealed container. I left them in there for a week and a half (and other people have left them in there for months!) and still nothing.

If you guys have a bit more questions (about the tuning/power aspect) feel free to PM or just post back here; and I'll try my best to answer your questions.

here is a link to a TV show I just did on converting a 350z Nissan to e85 the fuel works very well for making power.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111513