Supercar or not to supercar is the question..

So I was reading a new issue of MotorTrend when a discussion about Supercars of the past 4 decades came up. To my surprise the NSX was NOT in there. However, most cars on the list had really good hp/tq numbers for their ERA. I will have to believe it is the low hp numbers that stock NSXs have. If they had a V8 or supercharger option from the factory it would probably get the nod, right?

Thoughts?

been there, done that... lots of great reads on prime regarding this!

VegasSpeed said:

So I was reading a new issue of MotorTrend when a discussion about Supercars of the past 4 decades came up. To my surprise the NSX was NOT in there...

Thoughts?

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It's all relative to what they deem a "supercar" & what makes/models they included.

If the list included the Ferrari 348/355/360, the Porsche 964/993/996 911, the Lotus ESPRIT S3/S4/V8/V8-Gt/V8-SE, Dodge Viper RT-10/SR/and even the Chevrolet C4/C5 Corvette (heck, even the C4 ZR1), then perhaps there should be some dissent as all the aforementioned were contemporaries of the NSX.

FWIW, Gordon Murray (perhaps the defacto authority, as being the designer of the Macca' F1 & having intimate knowledge from up-close & personal w/ Honda at Tochigi & their F1-team) concludes that the NSX is a supercar.

I have a different meaning for supercar, as the Ferrari 288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo, Maclaren F1, Pagani Zonda, Koenigsegg, Lamborghini Countach/Diablo/Murcielago, Porsche 959/Carrera-GT, Maclaren-Mercedes SLR, Jaguar XJ220, Vector, Saleen S7, Bugatti EB110/Veyron, Lexus LF-A, etc' are quote/unquote supercars (IMO), whereas the NSX was/is a high-performance exotic sportscar. . .

Re: been there, done that... lots of great reads on prime regarding this!

Osiris_x11 said:

I have a different meaning for supercar, as the Ferrari 288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo, Maclaren F1, Pagani Zonda, Koenigsegg, Lamborghini Countach/Diablo/Murcielago, Porsche 959/Carrera-GT, Maclaren-Mercedes SLR, Jaguar XJ220, Vector, Saleen S7, Bugatti EB110/Veyron, Lexus LF-A, etc' are quote/unquote supercars (IMO), whereas the NSX was/is a high-performance exotic sportscar. . .

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that is exactly what i think of when i think of the word "supercar". a corvette should not be in a list with these boys

I consider it a super car, not a supercar.

i also think the supercar category changes over time. when the nsx came out in japan in 1990, i am sure it was one of the top performing cars of its time. if i could decide the day i was born, 1/14/1991, then yes i would call it a supercar. but with today's new standards i don't think it holds up as well

It's funny, I just wantched my BMI "Type R Legend" DVD this weekend and they said that when the NSX debuted in 1990, it was not the fastest JDM car. It was beat by both the Skyine GT-R and RX-7. According to BMI, this embarassment was the impetus for the 1992 NA1 Type-R, which I think you could argue at that time was one of the highest-performance cars in the world. 2700 lbs! I'd love to see what the B&B C30 from the R put out on the dyno...

Well loving the NSX and being Anal about my NSX, I e-mailed the editor of Motortrend about the super cars of the past decades,,and used some quotes from all of you guys comments and added my own and clicked "SEND" so if i get a responce from the editor I will post it here for you guys,, its was funny I ripped the Corvette up,saying the NSX was an "Exotic Supercar " and that the corvette was an off the shelf Junk car,,and that Z06 lalalala you could add all the letters in the alphabet Z06-R Z06-L Z06-Q Z06-Y etc. to its name and it wouldnt be a Super car... Will keep you guys updated LOL

Like other here I don't consider the NSX a supercar - I'm not sure if I would even say it was an exotic - I don't believe any of Porsches regular production cars is an exotic or supercar, maybe the 911 GT3. The Carrera GT was the only Porsche super car that comes to mind of recent date. I don't even consider the 959 to be an exotic now. Historically it was but that technology was moved into regular production vehicles and even surpased in todays 911s.

It is a true sports car and it is a true performance car - even today I believe it to be. It may not be as fast as the GTR or many others but it is still as fast in the right hands as many "sports cars" are today.

This is one of those simantic areas that will always be argued. For the day with it's aluminum body, frame and suspension it was probably an exotic. It wasn't cheap back then either. When it went out of production it was as expensive as a new 911. I would of course rather have had a new NSX than a new water cooled 996 - for sure. Actually the 911 is a sports GT - it has rear seats after all.

I don't feel qualified to argue with Murray, so it's a supercar as far as I'm concerned.

As for it being an exotic, I don't know how anyone could argue that it isn't. It seems to meet any objective criteria I've ever heard for that title.

Well if the classification of "Super Car" is "Super Price" then yea the NSX brand new would not fit the bill as lets say Pagani Zonda, or Lamborghini Murciélago,, but when it comes to Performance for its Era Yes its a "Supercar" and as for exotic heres the definition

"Supercar is a term generally used for ultra-high-end exotic cars, whose performance is superior to that of its contemporaries. It has been defined specifically as "a very expensive, fast or powerful car with a centrally located engine",<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0>[1]</SUP> and stated in more general terms: "it must be very fast, with sporting handling to match," "it should be sleek and eye-catching" and its price should be "one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own."<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-1>[2]</SUP> but the proper application of the term is subjective and disputed, especially among enthusiasts."

So NSX is low on the Price tag but Its considered an "Exotic" and if you dont see one everyday then it is in true form and exotic,

Tim,

What makes the NSX exotic is not its performance but its rarity. Let's not forget that there were only ~8900 imported into the US in 15 years. That, and the advanced technology of its day, are what make the NSX exotic. There is not one on every street corner and not everyone can own one....there simply aren't enough to go around.

The same thing with the Porsche 959. Advanced technology and extremely low production numbers make the car exotic. If you consider the Ferrari F40 an exotic (which I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who didn't), then the P959 falls directly into that category as well. Same thing with the Ferrari 308 and/or 348. Other than their nameplate and rarity, what makes them exotic?

As far as being a "SuperCar"? It's hard to say. The only thing that would really make the NSX a "SuperCar of the Decades Past" would be its advanced technology and the way it was designed. Definitely not it's performance...even against it's contemporaries. The SuperCars of the Day when the NSX was intorduced were the Porsche 959, Ferrari F40, Jaguar XJ220, Nazca M12, Vector W8 and a couple of others. The NSX does not compete with the likes of those, IMHO. Don't get me wrong, it is super to me....but not a supercar.

btw, hasn't this been discused a zillion x's before on here?

gleibig said:

btw, hasn't this been discused a zillion x's before on here?

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No...only a billion......and a billion doesn't go as far these days as it used too!

your wrong this is a new thread so it must not have been talked about LOL

moar...

Honcho said:

1992 NA1 Type-R, which I think you could argue at that time was one of the highest-performance cars in the world. 2700 lbs! I'd love to see what the B&B C30 from the R put out on the dyno...

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I believe the '93+ NA1 NSX-R didn't have a blueprinted/balanced motor, but instead featured weight-savings through a few lighter-weight components/parts, tuned sports-suspension, obvious JDM "short-gears", and a revised ECU-chip which improved the throttle response, raised the redline & even bumped up the h.p. & torque marginally. Procar Specials can offer more insight on this (especially the ECU-chip), as it was explained to me years ago by them.

shawn110975 said:

its was funny I ripped the Corvette up,saying the NSX was an "Exotic Supercar " and that the corvette was an off the shelf Junk car,,and that Z06 lalalala you could add all the letters in the alphabet Z06-R Z06-L Z06-Q Z06-Y etc. to its name and it wouldnt be a Super car... Will keep you guys updated LOL

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Why would you even ponder such, let alone do it? I'm absolutely dumbfounded.

It's good to take the initiative to have your voice heard, but at least have some merit, basis, and insight in your argument. Denigrating & dissin' another make/model doesn't then all of a sudden make your desired make/model better.

I'm very, very disappointed you would make your view-point known in such an ineloquent & immature manner (assuming that's how you stated everything in the email). That does absolutely nothing to make our community look any better, as a reflection of one then falls on all. I do realize & commend your enthusiasm & adoration of the NSX, but it's better to state one's view-point in a different light.

tbromley said:

Like other here I don't consider the NSX a supercar - I'm not sure if I would even say it was an exotic - I don't believe any of Porsches regular production cars is an exotic or supercar, maybe the 911 GT3. The Carrera GT was the only Porsche super car that comes to mind of recent date. I don't even consider the 959 to be an exotic now. Historically it was but that technology was moved into regular production vehicles and even surpased in todays 911s.

It is a true sports car and it is a true performance car - even today I believe it to be. It may not be as fast as the GTR or many others but it is still as fast in the right hands as many "sports cars" are today.

This is one of those simantic areas that will always be argued. For the day with it's aluminum body, frame and suspension it was probably an exotic. It wasn't cheap back then either. When it went out of production it was as expensive as a new 911. I would of course rather have had a new NSX than a new water cooled 996 - for sure. Actually the 911 is a sports GT - it has rear seats after all.

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tbromley, you're totally missing the point of what in-essence may define an exotic or personify a supercar. Once an exotic or supercar, always an exotic or supercar.

You're telling me that a quicker Mitsu' Evo X is a supercar, and a Ferrari F40 is no longer one because the Evo is quicker than it along w/ better performing/handling? Apparently such is the case, if you're basing what was then w/ what is now.

It's all relative w/ regards to the time-frame of a model's run, in-comparo to it's contemporaries & past models, which are what distinguish if not elevate a platform into the realm of being exotic, supercar, or whatever else they may choose as reference.

Even dated Ferrari 308/328/etc' models from '70s & early '80s are still exotics, despite some of them being 2+2 and/or being outclassed by modern-day stock Civic-Si's.

shawn110975 said:

... but when it comes to Performance for its Era Yes its a "Supercar"...

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Would you seriously put the NSX in the same ball-park, let alone same league performance-wise as the Ferrari F40/F50, Lamborghini Diablo/Murcielago, Koenigsegg CC's, Pagani Zonda, Porsche Carrera-GT, Maclaren F1, Maclaren Mercedes SLR? HeII know. Those are the supercars of the same era.

If the NSX had a V8 w/ 100 more h.p., or a V10/V12, then it would be a compelling case for being a supercar (IMO). . .

shawn110975 said:

So NSX is low on the Price tag but Its considered an "Exotic" and if you dont see one everyday then it is in true form and exotic,

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The concept of exotic transcends criteria & categories. Of-course it can mean hand-assembled, limited-number production, mid/rear engine position, high-performance, high-price, engineering prowess, unique materials, advanced technologies, unique styling, blah-bla-bha...

So, based on that quick-hit list, exotics would then include Aston Martin Vanquish/DB-S, Ferrari 550/575/612/599/California-GT, Porsche 911, Nissan GT-R, Mercedes Benz SL-AMG Black_Series, Bentley Continental GT Speed, Maserati GranTursimo, Chevrolet Corvette Z06/ZR1, TVR, etc'. But, by most keen observers & enthusiasts, they aren't generally considered exotics as there are other makes/models emulating the concept of exotic much more-so.

But, it's there's also the je ne sais quoi aspect to being an exotic which entails input from the senses & visceral feedback from the experience, meaning visual presence, sonorous sounds, seating position, view, ride-height & road-closeness of occupants, driving dynamics. As much as it may sound like hyperbole, exotics exude something that is experienced physically & sensually.

Tougher yet is what to say about the BMW Z8, Lotus Elise/Evora. Though, it's accepted that the NSX, Ferrari 348/355/360/F430/F458, Lamborghini Gallardo, Lotus ESPRIT, Ford GT, Audi R8, Noble, and even the Mercedes Benz SLS are exotics.

Osiris - and ya'll thought I was long winded ----HA!

Man I don't know if I'm up to the task and maybe haven't been cause I was exhausted with this thread about a couple months ago.

I don't put any Vette in an exotic catagory period - too many - lots of muscle but exotic .....mmmmm....naaaaa. It's a super car cause it's crazy fast but it will never be in the Ferrari catagory and neither will the NSX for that matter.

I liked the definition of an exotic someone posted -I'm too lazy to recall who, sorry, but it was a good definition and by that definition the NSX doesn't qualify. Neither does the GT-R cause afte all it's a Nissan. Sorry but nothing anyone will ever say will put the GT-R in the same catagory as the NSX - sure it may beat it on the track - I'll give it that - but in 20 years it will be a rattle bucket like most Nissans - oooooohhhh I've stepped into it now. I've driven and owned Nissans - and Zs so I think I have a right to dis em if they deserve it but their quality in my opinion is not that of Honda or Toyota for that matter. I also think the interior dash of a GT-R is clunky and lacks any simblance of grace or balance or fluidity like that of a good Italian or German or English or Honda car for that matter.

Obviously one of the most strong aspects of the NSX is its cockpit! Can I get an Amen on that one.

Now before I just go on and on extolling the virtues and wonders of the NSX and surely they are many - I will finish by saying that no one can really put the NSX in the same exotic or super car catagory of the Carrera GT, Aston Martin, Bentley, Mercedes AMG top of the line "blacks" ,etc, Lambo, Ferrari, Masserati, or even Alfa Romeo of late or Jaguar - and I'm sure I missed someone but not Corvette. They are great cars - don't get me wrong but they'll be ratteling in 10+ years like all the other Vettes of old.

Before you all blister my tail for this rediculous commenting of mine and start reminding us all about the ills of the Jag's and their old "prince of darkness" (lucas) wiring and the later issues of the Jag and then Ford's ownership, and the ills of the Alfa Romeo after Fiat bought them- but now they are making some really nice cars and have built some of the most exotic cars and beautiful cars that have ever been produced - as seen in Victory by Design - like many other marques in the exotic race born super cars mentioned and just plain awesome cabins of the Bentleys etc. The NSX will just not ever quite get into those circles.

Does that mean that they aren't fine - no ultra fine automobiles and worthy of super car status - hell I don't know - rare yes, low production #s yes, fine racer sports cars that handle extremely well yes, great engine albeit a little underpowered to some without the factory option for a TC or SC or a V8 - yes, great interior layout and in the later models in a very nice catagory of workmanship - YES - but not as nice as they could have made it had they been making money off the car and promoting it better - upgrading the interior sound system and electronics in the center console to provide a nav system by 05 - well yes they should have and maybe if they had they'd still be making them.

They dwindled down in production #s for one reason - or maybe two - they weren't selling that many - they weren't advertising the model - they cost a lot to make - lots of issues but you can't say they are exotic just cause their production numbers were small - cause that was largely self inflicted or just due to lack of buyers out there in the REAL world. Heck there were still un titled cars out there up until just recently and maybe still are I'm not sure - you won't find any Lambo's or Ferraris out there in that catagory.

So getting back to it - the NSX is a fine low end exotic - if you put Porsche in that catagory for regular production models - well do you? I don't. I'm not necessarily going to put the NSX and Honda above Porsche - parallel maybe but I don't know about better. In some ways yes they are better but pretty much in the same catagory as the marque during their production run. So is the 911 an exotic super car? Is the NSX - is Gordon Murray right in his definition - I surely salute him and Honda for this car - thank goodness I have one! I am really happy about that as we all should be - is it exotic - well to me it is- is it a super car - to me it is- but to the world - I don't know. That's for history to determine and if Honda doesn't build another sports car in NSX catagory - the NSX will drift off into the sunset as a wonderful piece of manufacturing - lamented and we'd all be sad - and eventually they might start escalating in value. They will never be like the 959 though and it's a super car! It's an exotic - I admit! You can all blast me now....

While all that is happening - I'll be driving the poo out of mine and fixing it up and keeping it going till I can't get in it anymore! Yeeeehaa! :biggrin:

Wow I got ripped,,, Like my mother use to say "Mind your manners Shawn"
When I emailed the editor of Motortrend, I didnt say I was representing Prime, In fact I didnt mention anything beside I will never buy another motortrend magazine, because of the lack of thought in not naming the NSX in the article, and "Exotic" term is just a Paris Hilton Class way of having a better car than us regular people, cuz their Sh_t dont stick!! yea right!!

TBromley Good Job with that rebuttal !

Nsx is in no way a super car, point-blank-period.

Taking a more snobbish view:

"an NSX is Honda's flagship performance sports car built with exotic/supercar performance characteristics in mind".

Ok, I too was insulted that the NSX didn't make the list, but what bothered me more was what others made it and what was left off, besides the X.

Ok, BMW M1, nice loved it when I was young, still think it's cool. But the rotory engine Mecedes... PLEASE... should we just put any prototype in....

Plus, read the front of the Magazine, article about Ferrari 348t drive... the author kept comparing the way the NSX or GTR drives... how the Ferrari was very demanding and difficult and exciting,,, only to find out that he was only going 60mph.. etc..

So, I'm not sure what they inteded to be on the list.. XKE an Exotic.. Supercar?? Wonderful work of art, but I'm just not sure I would use those two words to describe a beautiful british car.. especially the old British Leyland days...

So, I'm not sure what they inteded to be on the list.. XKE an Exotic.. Supercar?? Wonderful work of art, but I'm just not sure I would use those two words to describe a beautiful british car.. especially the old British Leyland days...[/QUOTE]

Amen to that. However, if you all watched with passion the shows on speed entitled "Victory by Design" there were surely some cars made by Jag that were definitely what I'd call EXOTIC/SUPERCAR - yes sireee. But I don't know about the XKE as our friend above mentions. I remember the British Leyland (BS) days for sure - that's when British cars tanked in my book. 67 was the last really good year for a long time for British cars - and even that wasn't that good! They did have the "lucas" POD wiring then- but they were neat and sounded sooooo good. Hold up the a cross, wear garlic and get thee back -cast out that demon lest one might consider British cars again.....not me! Whoooaaa.

PS: thanks for the kuhdos on the rubuttal Shawn! You didn't get too ripped and you inspired all this .....

Motor Trend - now really guys - who cares about Motor Trend - when I quit liking anything American after the early 70s or late 60s and went to sports cars - I quit liking Motor Trend - it's a sell out to muscle and American cars. That's my take so - eh, I thumb my nose at anything Motor Trend has to say generally. Now if Car and Driver or Road & Track came out with this clap trap - then I'd have reason to be hopped up.

My 2 cents...

"Victory by Design"

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What a GREAT series and show.
I agree from 67 on you really needed a membership to AAA if you drove British.. ( I am sorry, I have had several MGBs and a Triumph Herald )

When I grow up I want to be Alan De Cadenett What a stud,, or so my wife says...

ACCD said:

What a GREAT series and show.
I agree from 67 on you really needed a membership to AAA if you drove British.. ( I am sorry, I have had several MGBs and a Triumph Herald )

When I grow up I want to be Alan De Cadenett What a stud,, or so my wife says...

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Man does Alan have the best job in the world or what!!!!! That series he did Victory by Design was just awesome. I tell you that was one of the best produced shows that has ever been put on TV. I saw them all - great stuff. Wish they had done one on the NSX but it would have been ...short.

They don't make enough shows like that and Alan is just amazing with his knowledge of automobile history - either that or he has one of those ear phones in and a team of people behind the scenes feeding him answers. There was another show I saw on HD the other day with him as MC - he's my favorite. My wife thinks he's a stud too. Geez.

carry'on...

shawn110975 said:

Wow I got ripped,,, Like my mother use to say "Mind your manners Shawn"

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It wasn't meant to be a "rip", diss, or a flame! I just suggested that at times it's not the best route to take by directly insulting/belittling other makes/models to make your own beliefs & view-point more valid. I even lauded & praised your enthusiasm & affirmation that the NSX is a kick-@ss piece of automobile history, as I'm just as passionate if not more-so regarding our awesome rides!

I haven't read the article yet, and it seems like that if I did- I'd get a chuckle out of it. Editors & writers are generally driven to evoke emotions/opinions towards engendering ongoing dialog/discourse, so it's more than obvious they take creative liberty (at times it's eloquent prose, and other times it's beyond silly madness) in all what they choose to state or omit, as well as how they go about doing it!

Lets have a look under the bonnet shall we.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs