91 NSX, mint, 5 spd, black, 21,600 mi: $30,000 still ok

[Bernie]

First, my apologies to all who responded.To my post "94 NSX, mint, 5 spd, black, 25,000 mi: $30,000 ok?"

When I posted before, I did not have my facts straight. The car is a 91 with 21,600 miles. Before, I thought the seller said it was a 94. I knew the miles were in the lower 20's so I said it had 25,000. Other information included in that post is correct.

I am still interested in the car, so I took a much closer look at the it today.

The interior looks great except for wear on the lumbar cushion of the drivers seat from getting in and out. No hole yet, but worn pretty good. The seller is a big guy. Also, the pad along the bottom of the door opening between the door and the driver seat has a slight tear less than 1/4 inch long.

The original paint is shiny. It has a few paint knicks up front from stones and some surface scrathes elsewhare that should polish out. No dings though.

There is what appears to be very minor body damage at two locations. The first, as I was told, resulted when the first owner drove over a tire tread. This made approximately 1/2 inch tear in the plastic inner liner of the front right tire well. Worse, the hind portion of the fender was pushed back 1/8 to 1/4 inch. It is not very noticeable. I walked around car several times and did not see until it was pointed out. The second body damage involves two deep paralell scratches about 1-1/2 inch long and about 1 inch apart on the rear edge of the front left fender well. The damage is very localized but the flared edge of the fender well may be creased slightly.

The tires are nearly new Yokohama A200's. One wheel shows a small amount of curb rash.

The engine compartment, trunk and front hatch are clean and look like new. The car presently has a bad battery from sitting in storage. So I cannot comment on the way it drives yet. That will have to wait until tommorrow. It has been driven 8,000 miles in the last 6 years.

I have been assured that the transmission and motor work perfectly. Also, the seller originally had it for sell at $35,000. The buyer, whom I was told was young and couldn't swing the insurance, had the car inspected. The seller said the inspection noted no body / structural damage to underside. Alsothe seller said he confirmed that the car was not susceptible to the snap ring transmission problem before he bought it. The AC had been recharged with R12. I forgot to ask how long ago.

Please let me know what you think. I am starting to get a little excited about this car and want to keep things in perspective. Does this car sound like an "A" car on the value chart in the FAQ? I will definitely get a carfax to verify history. If after the test drive, I am still interested, should I have car inspected or can I rely on my own judgement. I am accustomed to buying used cars and am a good enough mechanic to rebuild a supra engine but have no specific knowledge of the NSX.

Thanks, Bernie.

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Bernie:
Does this car sound like an "A" car on the value chart in the FAQ?

No, not at all. This sounds more like a "D" car that happens to have below-average miles. Yes, that's possible.

It has quite a few serious issues - the leather wear on the seat, the tear on the pad next to the door opening, the minor body damage, the curb rash on the wheel, etc. An "A" car should be perfect, with no issues at all.

You did not mention maintenance. I can only guess that it has not had the timing belt and water pump changed, even though they were due six years ago. I can only guess that it has not had the window regulators updated. The fact that the battery is dead is another sign of improper maintenance. An "A" car would have had all maintenance done approximately on time.

Originally posted by Bernie:
If after the test drive, I am still interested, should I have car inspected or can I rely on my own judgement.

Definitely have it looked over and inspected by someone with a lot of NSX experience who knows what he's doing. You are also relying to a large extent on "the seller said this" and "the previous owner said this", and this sounds like a case in which the car's owner is not particularly knowledgeable or fastidious about taking car of his car.

Right now this car sounds like a major risk and the price is no bargain.

[snapper]

Your new best friend are the FAQ's.
Verify service history.
If not you can plan on spending thousands to bring it up to date.

Other issues, Window regulators need to have been changed, Bose speakers and amp should have been serviced, and be sure to get the snap ring range #'s and confirm for yourself.

[Larry Bastanza]

Bernie,

In regard to body damage, open the hood and the trunk. Inspect every fastener that hold the fenders on the car. Look for cracks in the paint ANYWHERE. There should be non.

The 1/8 - 1/4 movement you describe about the fender, bothers me. Forget the tread story, see if the fender has ever been removed.

HTH,
LarryB

[Bernie]

I drove the car today. It is simply a good car. Much better than restored salvage but no deserving the highest consideration either. I will post more later.

[Bernie]

About me. I am the guy you see snaking through the urban interstate rush hour traffic at 100 plus, evey day of the week. If there is a 1/4 mile of daylight, I going 120. If you are a fast driver, I am the one who passes you by on the right. I don't tailgate, I go much too fast for that.

I have been buying used cars for 20 years. I have worked my way up from the S#^* cars to better things. Right now I am driving a 91 supra turbo. If not for the Fast and Furious, I would be driving a 93 to 98 supra. The prices on these cars are terribly inflated. So much so, that an early low mileage NSX is probably a better and less expensive buy. But a supra is a lot easier to build.

I am generally careful about what cars I buy I have never made a really bad deal. Quite often, I get all my money back. Unless I keep the car long enough to trash it first.

I have ruined enough cars to know a ruined car when I see it.

The body damage issues are nothing major. I took a good look at the more significant damage to the lower rear portion of the right fender. You probably wouldn't notice it at 10 feet. Opening the hood and checking for cracks, there is no evidence of attempted repair, indicating more serious damage inside. Athough the lower 10 inches of the fender are not in alignment with the door, there is no indication that the fender ever came in contact with the door. The section also does not appear to be structural. In my opinion, it is a $500 fender-on fix given that the car is aluminum. But you NSX guys would know more about this than me.

The damage to rear portion of the left fender flare, described earlier as two parallel creases 1-1/2 long, is about as significant as your average grocery cart ding. I found no other damage elsewhere on the car, save for some small stone nicks up-front. The nicks as well as the scratches have been touched up using your basic touch up paint.

The driver seat is indeed worn. But this is explainable by the 6'-2", 250 lb coverall claded machine shop owner who owns the car. His name is Steve, he has been in business well over 20 years, his shop is very busy and they always do first rate machine work with care and concern for your needs. Unfortunately, Steve is a big guy who wears dirty work clothes in his car.

I checked the oil which was clean. The rear glass sopport pistons are worn out and need replaced. Also, laquering was minimal so I don't think the car has been run hot (the coolant hoses had been replaced per recall notice).

With the battery charged, and the motor slightly warm from being started several hours earlier, the car started before I finished turning the key.

There was a definite vibration from the engine. Something I am not accustomed to with in-line 6 supra motor. Is this normal? (When the engine warmed up, the vibration subsided slightly.) After starting the car, I checked the exhaust and then opened the engine lid. Looking at the engine at idle, it did not seem to vibrate as much as indicated by sitting in the car. I assume that the engine is not all that well vibration isolated from the chassis. As the car is much more sport oriented than a supra, this may make sense. Any comments? There were no noises indicating valve, cylinder wear or connecting rod problems.

Getting back into the car, I found two more "issues". The first was no sound from the left stereo speaker. The second was that he AC only seemed to blow, very cold, on high speed. I asked Steve about this later and he said it blows like that until it reaches temperture. Anyway, turning the fan speed knob seemed to have little effect on the AC output. The heater worked fine. All other controls tested also worked properly.

I pulled the car out of the garage. Definitely no power steering assist on this car. Cautiously I put her on the road and though first through third gear. Nice shifting. Also, enough torgue at idle that stalling is not a concern. The car ran and braked straight with my hands off the wheel. During two quick brakes, I may have noticed a little rotor warpage, but I am not sure. Definitely minimal if present.

The car accelerates nicely, is a very low and very well connected to the road. On the interstate entrance ramp, I revved it a little bit (say 6000 to 7000rpm) and shifted through gears 2 and 3.

Two notable impressions. First the motor howls like a wild cat when revved. Second, you feel like your going alot faster than you really are. As I hacked my way across the roadway expansion joints in this very low slung car, I felt something I usually do not feel below 110 - apprehension. Funny thing was that everyone else was passing me by.

Well it wasn't hard to stop that from happening and my wife didn't like that one bit at all . So I never got past 90 .

Unfortunately, I never really had a chance to explore how this car corners. My wife was still asking me to slow down and I am sure she wouldn't tolerate a couple of g turns. However, the car did stay completely level during the few quick lane shifts that I made.

I checked the clutch in fifth as suggested in the FAQ and there was no slippage. All gauges showed approprite readings.

After I returned a half later, I left it idleing and revisted the engine compartment, No smells, noises or other problems. Exhaust was also clean.

Steve assured me that records were availble for the car. I never pressed him to produce them though. Altough Steve owns a machine shop, he said he has never done any work on other than routine maintenance and cleaning. I believe him concerning this.

In addition to the above noted concerns, I identified the following potential problems with this car:

The AC had been recharged at least once before. I forgot again to ask how long ago. But since the car has sat alot, the seals may be dry. At the moment though, it is ice cold. Considering that the battery was dead and the car had not been driven since Christmas, the refridgerant can't be leaking out too quickly if it is at all.

The battery was dead. I agree that it shouldn't be. But if the car had been sitting a long time...

I did not find out about the window regulator replacement. All I can say is that they work now.

The VIN indicates it is unlikely to be snap ring transmision. I did not confirm this by transmission serial number though. Steve told me he checked before buying and it is not a snap ring tranny.

The timing belt has not been replaced. Despite low miles, it should be done as soon as possible.

In general, the car has been well maintained. Those things that have been deferred appear to have been deferred due to lack of usage not neglect.

The body damage is relatively insignificant. Sure, the fastidious owner would have had the minor damge repaired. But it is only cosmetic minor damage. The fact is that nicks and scratches have been touched upand not hidden. The car remins beautiful. Also, repairing the driver seat wouldn't mak sense if it wasn't too base and you still were going to wear your dirty work clothes onthe ivory leather. The curb rash noted on the left fron wheel is also very minor. It could be removed using a hand file in minutes. left alone it is hardly noticeable.

I am not going to buy this car. It is too much a "sports car" to be my daily driver. I prefer a little more weight, a little higher sitting position, more adjustable seats, more straight line acceleration, more isolation from the road and a rear seat when I need it. Also, I like to keep my honey happy, which narrows my choices down to a MKIV Supra or maybe a 911.

If it suited my tastes better, I would buy it without reservation. The asking price is $30,000. Anyone in the Southeast looking for a nice but not perfect low mileage NSX would be doing a disservice to themselves not to check out this car. Their phone number is (727) 896-8631. Ask for Steve or Richard. They are really nice people. If you contact them, mention my name please. I have a supra block to deck and head to mill. Maybe they will mill my bill a little bit too.

Finally, I like to say again that you guys got a great forum here. I will miss the NSX community. PM me if you like.

Bernie.

[4AU4LIFE]

VIN has NOTHING to do with being in snap ring range for 91-92 year models. Look for yourself at the serial # !! Trust us on this.

------------------
92 RED/BLACK 5-SPEED

[snapper]

Pass.

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Bernie:
There was a definite vibration from the engine. Something I am not accustomed to with in-line 6 supra motor. Is this normal?

No.

Originally posted by Bernie:
The first was no sound from the left stereo speaker.

Common problem. See the FAQ.

Originally posted by Bernie:
The second was that he AC only seemed to blow, very cold, on high speed. I asked Steve about this later and he said it blows like that until it reaches temperture.

Steve either isn't familiar with NSX problems, or he's pulling your leg. (Either one is a bad sign.) The blower motor and power transistor need to be replaced, as noted in TSB 92-007 here.

Originally posted by Bernie:
you feel like your going alot faster than you really are.

Not a good sign. In an NSX, you should feel like you're going slower than you really are.

Originally posted by Bernie:
Unfortunately, I never really had a chance to explore how this car corners.

Too bad. That's the best thing about the NSX.

Originally posted by Bernie:
I did not find out about the window regulator replacement. All I can say is that they work now.

Given Steve's lack of knowledge about the A/C, it wouldn't be surprising if he hadn't updated those either.

I hear about a lot of NSXs. Some have low mileage, some have high mileage. Some are well maintained, some are poorly maintained. One does not necessarily correlate with the other. This is an NSX with below average mileage that has been very poorly maintained.

Originally posted by Bernie:
The VIN indicates it is unlikely to be snap ring transmision. I did not confirm this by transmission serial number though. Steve told me he checked before buying and it is not a snap ring tranny.

Originally posted by 92NSX:
VIN has NOTHING to do with being in snap ring range for 91-92 year models. Look for yourself at the serial # !! Trust us on this.

Actually, 92NSX, that's not precisely true. The transmissions in the snap ring range didn't start getting manufactured until fairly late in the '91 model year, and started showing up around VIN number MT002600 or thereabouts. If a '91 VIN is less than MT002500, it almost certainly left the factory with a transmission that was not in the snap ring range. If it had the transmission replaced during its first couple of years, it's possible that a snap ring range transmission was installed, but otherwise it would not be in the snap ring range. You're correct that you can't be absolutely certain without checking the transmission ID number, but it's very unlikely for the VINs in the first part of the model year.

I assume there's a similar point in the '92 VINs above which the transmissions are out of range, but I don't know what that point is.

[Bernie]

92 NSX

I have decided not to buy. Why should I look it up? I am supra guy and this car confirms it. I havn't a clue where the tranny is. As it is still a freaking honda. It probably resides in the transmission tunnel so that they can still have front wheel drive .

But yes, if I were to buy, I would confirm it directly and I appreciate the firm advice on this issue.

[snapper]

Originally posted by Bernie:
92 NSX

I have decided not to buy. Why should I look it up? I am supra guy and this car confirms it. I havn't a clue where the tranny is. As it is still a freaking honda. It probably resides in the transmission tunnel so that they can still have front wheel drive .

But yes, if I were to buy, I would confirm it directly and I appreciate the firm advice on this issue.

Front wheel drive? HUH?

Like I said. Pass.

[Bernie]

Originally posted by Bernie:
There was a definite vibration from the engine. Something I am not accustomed to with in-line 6 supra motor. Is this normal?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply from nsxtasy

No.

Then this may be a real issue. The vibration was uniform. Not real bad. Sitting in a supra, the motor cannot be detected except by ear. If the NSX should be the same, then there may be serious engine problem. Again, vibration was noticeable at idle. Not particalarly uncomfortable. About what I would expect from a detroit v-8. Not what I expected from this car. Maybe I swing by Acura and try a different car. .


Originally posted by Bernie:
you feel like your going alot faster than you really are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a good sign. In an NSX, you should feel like you're going slower than you really are.

That's what I like about my supras. Speed inspiring smoothess. The NSX was completely new to me, the suspension is alot stiffer, the car is lower and the engine is right behind. I am not sure how much this affected my impression of speed.

[ck]

Stick with the Supra, it's a much better car than the NSX.

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Bernie:
I am supra guy and this car confirms it. I havn't a clue where the tranny is. As it is still a freaking honda. It probably resides in the transmission tunnel so that they can still have front wheel drive .

Bernie,

Did you come here to insult our cars? Because this remark just confirms the awful reputation that the Supra owners have developed for arrogance - not only on NSX boards, but throughout the import community. Shame on you.

Enjoy your "freaking Toyota".

[Bernie]

No, I did not come here to insult your cars and shouldn't have taken a shot. I just came here to learn about them. I have seen one, obviously not the best example. So my initial impression isn't deserving. You guys have done everthing possible to help me avoid making a bad purchase. You have a great community. For that I am very thankful.

Also, I admit that there is alot of arrogance in the the supra community. A lot of those guys didn't have a clue about the supra until fast and furious brought them into the fold. They are like nouveau rich. When the next hot car movie comes out and highlights a different car, they will leave and take their arrogance with them. I am on my fourth supra in a row. I know the car and like it alot. It's my benchmark. However, the MKIII supra I drive now, like a Prelude, is not in the same league as a NSX or MKIV supra. I think very highly of the NSX or would not consider it if I thought otherwise.

I just spoke with a friend of mine who owned a NSX until recently. He confirmed that the NSX should be super smooth running and the impression of speed should be much lower than the actual speed. I will try a different NSX. Maybe you haven't got rid of me yet.

Bernie

[RPM217]

Originally posted by Bernie:
No, I did not come here to insult your cars and shouldn't have taken a shot. I just came here to learn about them. I have seen one, obviously not the best example. So my initial impression isn't deserving. You guys have done everthing possible to help me avoid making a bad purchase. You have a great community. For that I am very thankful.

Also, I admit that there is alot of arrogance in the the supra community. A lot of those guys didn't have a clue about the supra until fast and furious brought them into the fold. They are like nouveau rich. When the next hot car movie comes out and highlights a different car, they will leave and take their arrogance with them. I am on my fourth supra in a row. I know the car and like it alot. It's my benchmark. However, the MKIII supra I drive now, like a Prelude, is not in the same league as a NSX or MKIV supra. I think very highly of the NSX or would not consider it if I thought otherwise.

I just spoke with a friend of mine who owned a NSX until recently. He confirmed that the NSX should be super smooth running and the impression of speed should be much lower than the actual speed. I will try a different NSX. Maybe you haven't got rid of me yet.

Bernie

I had an 82 Supra, nice car, 88 Legend Coupe (5 spd), 92 SC300 (5 spd),97 328CI (5 spd),2000 C5 Conv (6spd), and now 02 NSX 6 spd. The others were nice and fun cars, the NSX is different. On a stretch of curving highway that I did the week before I gave up the Vette at 75MPH, I took the NSX around at 85MPH and felt that I was going slower than the Vette felt. Soooo, in my opinion if you felt that you were speeding in the NSX, you were driving a bad example. The Vette is brute force, the NSX is pure finesse

[fastcat99]

Let's see.....Bernie says he can rebuild a Supra inline six, but he can't figure out where the NSX transmission resides? Poor Bernie does not deserve to be in a car as fine as the NSX. Go back to your Supra and be happy!

[Bernie]

Fastcat99

You're so sensitive. Take a valium and quit losing sleep. Woody Allen will make another movie.

[4AU4LIFE]

Originally posted by ck:
Stick with the Supra, it's a much better car than the NSX.

And you drive what ?????

nsxtasy,
Thanks for setting me straight on the snap ring thing. Always happy to learn something new from ya !!

------------------
92 RED/BLACK 5-SPEED

[This message has been edited by 92NSX (edited 16 March 2003).]

[ck]

Originally posted by 92NSX:
And you drive what ?????

I was only kidding. Sorry I forgot to add the smiley:

[john576]

Bernie brought up a good point about FFI and the Supra, not that it would but it could...that is prime mentioned on FF2... Oh God no