Need Advice on a '91 NSX for sale by dealer JH4NA1153MT000130

[quesnoy]

I came across this car on Autotrader. It's a 91 NSX with almost 73,000 miles on it. The dealer is asking $26,990. Seems like a good price, but I have some concerns:

1. I haven't checked it out personally yet, so I don't know if it's in snap ring range. I assume it is since it's a 91.

2. It appears that the front lip spoiler is missing. Also, from the picture of the front end it appears the gap between the front bumper and hood might be uneven. Does this likely mean that the car ran aground going into or out of a driveway? If so, is this fixable, or does it mean slight frame damage? Please let me know what you think based on the attached pictures. Thanks.

3. It has later model year wheels. I personally liked the original wheels of the NSX but I know most people prefer the later model year wheels. Should I question the change to later model year wheels? Or is this not a big deal? Judging from the side view pictures, I'm also wondering if the car has been lowered. It seems like the wheels tuck slightly up into the wheel well. Maybe that would also explain the missing front lip spoiler as well. Please let me know what you think about this as well. Thanks.

The VIN of this vehicle is: JH4NA1153MT000130

[grybrd]

Not all '91s are a snap ring issue. You need the transmission number to know for sure. The wheels are a personal opinion and the upgrade is likely not an issue. The originals are pretty readily available. (I have a set in my garage though the car is gone.) As to the panel alignments, that could be reason for concern and someone with experience should look at it for you if that is not an area of expertise. The lower lip is often subjected to scraping if ground clearance in and out of driveways creates it, as it was with mine (no lip when I purchased the car and I had to learn the right angle to enter and exit the driveway once I added one.)
It might be time to lay eyes on the car and to go with someone with some additional NSX knowledge.
Good luck.

[Nukem]

1.) Need the Tranny number and match it up with the range in the Wiki.

2.) with everything you listed: missing front spoiler, Panel gaps check to see if there is an accident in the vehicle history, look under the hood for signs. Front spoilers are only like $130ish. I just replaced mine. I hear the earlier NA1s are becoming harder to find. The NA2 front spoilers do fit/bolt up

3.) Original wheels are pretty easy to find. That car appears to be lowered. doesn't look like the usual 4x4 pick-up wheel well gaps.

[itrsteve]

I currently have a purchase offer in on their other NSX in the inventory, after two months of talking with these guys I realize they're a bunch of straight shooters. If you haven't spoke to them then ask for Nathan, hes a very helpful guy.

Acura of Concord (right up the road) will do a PPI for $180 and have two NSX certified mechanics on staff. That's a very fair price, you can submit an offer contingent on your approval of the PPI.

[shawn110975]

the first thing i did was upgrade to the bigger OEM rims almost everyone does this.

as for the front bumper not aligning I took mine off and it is off a little.

as for the lower lip they rip off so easy that they just didnt put a new one back on. no biggy they are 130+ bucks

why they took off the front bumper is the question, maybe the A/C dryer needed to be replaced which is nothing.

as for the price I would jump on it quick.

and a pre bid on their website if your really gonna pull the trigger you should have purchased a plane ticket

LOL

[quesnoy]

the first thing i did was upgrade to the bigger OEM rims almost everyone does this.

as for the front bumper not aligning I took mine off and it is off a little.

as for the lower lip they rip off so easy that they just didnt put a new one back on. no biggy they are 130+ bucks

why they took off the front bumper is the question, maybe the A/C dryer needed to be replaced which is nothing.

as for the price I would jump on it quick.

and a pre bid on their website if your really gonna pull the trigger you should have purchased a plane ticket

LOL

Thanks for the insight, Shawn. I didn't even consider that maybe the bumper had been intentionally removed to fix something mechanical. Is it really possible that it could be misaligned without there being any damage? Did they design it so that it would be adjustable? With such a precision-made car, I would think that the bumper would be a precise fit and not require adjustment. Was your front bumper misaligned at all before you removed and reinstalled it?

As for the plane ticket, I'm local. I would simply drive to the dealership. Thanks, though.

[quesnoy]

1.) Need the Tranny number and match it up with the range in the Wiki.

2.) with everything you listed: missing front spoiler, Panel gaps check to see if there is an accident in the vehicle history, look under the hood for signs. Front spoilers are only like $130ish. I just replaced mine. I hear the earlier NA1s are becoming harder to find. The NA2 front spoilers do fit/bolt up

3.) Original wheels are pretty easy to find. That car appears to be lowered. doesn't look like the usual 4x4 pick-up wheel well gaps.

I had a feeling it had been lowered. That gives more reason to hesitate. It makes me wonder how often the car has run aground, not just the front bumper, but at higher speeds. I had a friend who lowered a Toyota Cellica and he actually ran aground on the free way in a construction zone. He said after it happened he could hear something rattling around under his car and then soon afterword, the rattling stopped. He never actually had the car checked out (he didn't always exercise the best judgement with these things). He seemed to think the car fixed itself (I know. Don't get me started).

My point being, there may be more damage under the car than anyone is aware of. Heat shields may have broken loose and the chasis may even be bent or dented. You never know. Even with an inspection, they may miss something small.

Just one more reason I hate it when people lower their cars.

[Big_D]

Like others have said you need to verify the serial number on the transmission to be sure it is not in snap ring range.

Regarding the car being lowered. It's pretty common for enthusiasts to lower their sports cars to improve the looks and to some degree improve the handling. There aren't too many things that hang down that could get damaged by the car being lowered. A look at the car while its on a lift would easily reveal any signs of damage. I would suspect this is why the car does not currently have a front spoiler lip.

The front bumper not lining up with the hood is a clue that the bumper has been removed at some point in time. It can be tricky to get it aligned and it is possible to re-adjust it.

A pre-purchase inspection by a reputable NSX tech would help you with some of your concerns. I would recommend getting a leak down compression test. I would also have an experienced body man take a look at it.

Overall maintenance records are paramount. I would ask the dealer to try to retrieve as many records as possible. Also inquire if they have any records from the previous owner. Otherwise you should assume this car needs a Timing Belt and possibly a clutch in the near future. I would be prepared to have as much as $5k available to get the maintenance up to date.

Good Luck!

[tbnsxt]

You just need to figure out if there were any accidents, and have it looked over and or test driven by a reputable nsx tech if possible. If it comes up clean, I would jump on it.

It appears to be a clean car and the newer wheels are much nicer in person compared to the originals. You may also want to replace the lowering springs,if it has them, with the original springs. IMO stock nsx wheels look best at stock or near stock ride height. It also helps out alot when pulling out of driveways.

The visual aspect is drastically improved with the addition of the na2 chin spoiler. The na2 is the only oem one available now.

[quesnoy]

Like others have said you need to verify the serial number on the transmission to be sure it is not in snap ring range.

Regarding the car being lowered. It's pretty common for enthusiasts to lower their sports cars to improve the looks and to some degree improve the handling. There aren't too many things that hang down that could get damaged by the car being lowered. A look at the car while its on a lift would easily reveal any signs of damage. I would suspect this is why the car does not currently have a front spoiler lip.

The front bumper not lining up with the hood is a clue that the bumper has been removed at some point in time. It can be tricky to get it aligned and it is possible to re-adjust it.

A pre-purchase inspection by a reputable NSX tech would help you with some of your concerns. I would recommend getting a leak down compression test. I would also have an experienced body man take a look at it.

Overall maintenance records are paramount. I would ask the dealer to try to retrieve as many records as possible. Also inquire if they have any records from the previous owner. Otherwise you should assume this car needs a Timing Belt and possibly a clutch in the near future. I would be prepared to have as much as $5k available to get the maintenance up to date.

Good Luck!

Thanks, Big D

I've been meaning to go inspect the transmission serial number, but haven't been able to get away the last couple of days.

As far as lowering cars goes, I'm aware of the reasons that people do it, I just don't think it fitting to do to an NSX. It's hard enough for the NSX to be considered an exotic car with its relatively low HP rating, but when people start moding their NSX as if it's just another Supra/300zx/rx-7/etc., all it accomplishes for the NSX reputation is to downgrade the nameplate to import tuner status, imho. I mean you rarely, if ever, see a Ferrari or Lamborghini with aftermarket rims, exhaust or a lowered ride height. Plus it "F"s up the ride quality and makes the car less of a daily driver. But I don't want to get into an argument about this. I know many will disagree with me.

Anyway, I'll look into getting it inspected and will check the transmission serial number as well. The compression test will probably be included in the inspection, correct? If not, I'll consider this as well.

[quesnoy]

You just need to figure out if there were any accidents, and have it looked over and or test driven by a reputable nsx tech if possible. If it comes up clean, I would jump on it.

It appears to be a clean car and the newer wheels are much nicer in person compared to the originals. You may also want to replace the lowering springs,if it has them, with the original springs. IMO stock nsx wheels look best at stock or near stock ride height. It also helps out alot when pulling out of driveways.

The visual aspect is drastically improved with the addition of the na2 chin spoiler. The na2 is the only oem one available now.

Thanks, tbnsxt. I'll definitely be checking for accident reports on the carfax. The only problem I'm worried about is that not every type of fender bender would be reported. Especially if another car was not involved. The front bumper being bent out of alignment from hitting the ground would likely not show up in a carfax, I'm guessing. Or would it? Let me know if you are aware of carfax reporting procedures, as I am not. Thanks.

I would certainly prefer to restore the original ride height along with original factory rims (if its not becoming apparent from reading my other posts, I'm not a big aftermarket guy). I'm more interested in returning the car to its original balance between handling and ride quality. Do you know if swapping the springs is a DIY type of job? Or do you need special tools like spring compressors? Please let me know if you have any experience with this. Thanks.

As far as the original na1 spoiler not being available any more, that is disappointing. I will have to look into this matter a bit more. The NSX is kind of a nostalgia car for me. Not sure I want one that can't be restored to original condition. If you know of any company that has oem na1 spoilers or even replicas, please let me know. Thanks.

[quesnoy]

1.) Need the Tranny number and match it up with the range in the Wiki.

2.) with everything you listed: missing front spoiler, Panel gaps check to see if there is an accident in the vehicle history, look under the hood for signs. Front spoilers are only like $130ish. I just replaced mine. I hear the earlier NA1s are becoming harder to find. The NA2 front spoilers do fit/bolt up

3.) Original wheels are pretty easy to find. That car appears to be lowered. doesn't look like the usual 4x4 pick-up wheel well gaps.

Thanks, Nukem. Any idea where I could find an NA1 front spoiler? my big thing is originality. I know most people say the NA2 spoiler is "better", but I'm hoping to get an NA1 if I can find one (used is OK if in good condition). Any info you have would be welcome. Thanks, again.

[TCroly]

Of your list of things to look out for, none of them are the most important. The most important single thing is the accident history. Scraping a spoiler is irrelevant at the price of this car. But a major crash that was not repaired correctly could be a disaster.

It is good that you are becoming well aware of the potential issues on the NSX, but at $27,000 you cannot expect a "perfect" car that is 21 years old.

Many car's have been lowered and it has been done soundly. Some car's have been lowered using inferior parts or installation, but nothing you cannot fix. OEM 15/16 wheels are available cheap, if you like that look.

Keep in mind that even if the car falls within the snap ring transmission range, that does not mean it will necessary ever fail from snap ring failure, only a percentage of the car's within the range will ever fail, the tooling simply was not being checked often enough during the original manufacturing of these transmission cases.

[bee_are_bee]

I'm pretty sure this is the same car that was listed for sale on Craigslist a while back, owner living in Santa Cruz. I exchanged emails with the guy and was told the timing belt and water pump have not been changed. He also mentioned in his email that there is part of the roof where the paint is starting to fade off. You could probably verify that by seeing it in person. This car looks to have several deferred maintenance items to address for the new owner.

[quesnoy]

Of your list of things to look out for, none of them are the most important. The most important single thing is the accident history. Scraping a spoiler is irrelevant at the price of this car. But a major crash that was not repaired correctly could be a disaster.

It is good that you are becoming well aware of the potential issues on the NSX, but at $27,000 you cannot expect a "perfect" car that is 21 years old.

Many car's have been lowered and it has been done soundly. Some car's have been lowered using inferior parts or installation, but nothing you cannot fix. OEM 15/16 wheels are available cheap, if you like that look.

Keep in mind that even if the car falls within the snap ring transmission range, that does not mean it will necessary ever fail from snap ring failure, only a percentage of the car's within the range will ever fail, the tooling simply was not being checked often enough during the original manufacturing of these transmission cases.

Thanks, TCroly

Ya, I actually considered the carfax report (I wrote Vehicle History report I guess, but that's what I meant) to be synonymous with accident history when I created the list. So, what I'm saying is, I agree with you that accident history is very important. I also agree that the car may not suffer a snap ring failure even if it is in snap ring range, but I'm just trying to plan for the worst and hope for the best. I also don't think the spoiler is irrelevant for someone like me who wants to restore the car. I know it seems stupid to worry about a small rubber strip that barely affects the car at all, but I don't see how putting an even lower front spoiler (na2 version) is going to be vary productive when the original na1 spoiler was already low enough to get torn off by a driveway. I personally like the look of the more understated original na1 spoiler anyway. But it's not a deal breaker at that price, as you stated. But there are other cars out there for similar prices that dont' seem to have many of the cosmetic problems this car seems to have. That's why I'm not quick to jump on the first bargain I come across.

[quesnoy]

I'm pretty sure this is the same car that was listed for sale on Craigslist a while back, owner living in Santa Cruz. I exchanged emails with the guy and was told the timing belt and water pump have not been changed. He also mentioned in his email that there is part of the roof where the paint is starting to fade off. You could probably verify that by seeing it in person. This car looks to have several deferred maintenance items to address for the new owner.

Thanks for the heads up, bee_are_bee. I'll make sure to check the roof thoroughly for paint work.

[tbromley]

Bee has given you a big tip on the maintenance. This is typical of small time dealers with NSXs - they get em and usually don't have records and in this case there weren't many to have. You figure adding 5k to the price and then answer the question - is the car worth 3iK+??? It may not be and if the overall condition is something you don't like then pass on it.

The lowering issue and the wheels -are totally preferrence - it will not hurt the car to lower it and scraping the front lip - well - who knows what's gone on there - but just scrapping due to low profile will not hurt the car. May not be nice cosmetically but that's another issue - not a structural one. The wheels - well so many change those out it's no big deal. Believe me if you wanted to trade those wheels for the original stock wheels you'll have plenty of takers. The guy that bought mine I sent the original wheels to him - he didn't even want them - he offered them for free if someone wanted to pay the shipping - they may still be for sale or for give away. Whatever - so that's an easy fix. These cars in a hilly area are low enough stock - they may look better slightly lowered, and in my opinion they do - not slammed but lowered a little like Swift Sport springs would do - but they will be more prone to scraping - just the nature of the beast.

Biggest issue on these cars is to not get too excited about the initial purchase price being some big "deal" - that is never the story 99% of the time - there will always be a bunch of things to do to get em just right. 5k is a minimum for what this one will take and 70+k miles will show some wear to the side bolster I would bet and other things in the cabin most likely. AC, stereo - man there is a host of stuff to worry about with an old NSX. Without records - it's a crap shoot. Shawn gives out advice he can take cause he's a DIY KING DADDY - but for the rest of us mere mortals that pay others for work - man it's most likely going to cost more than 5k to get this one right - and MAN I WOULD NOT DISCOUNT THIS AT ALL- this is a big purchase and i you want a good taste in your mouth buy one you can see records on - maintenance history - ownership history - a real owner to talk to - there are others out there that are not at thise little dealers. They may be nice but nice doesn't get you much - nice when they take your 26k - yea - I'd be nice too but you don't want to be a sucker.

Nuff said - word to the wise....

And you guys didn't think you'd see another epistle out of me....hahahahahahaha.

Adios

[quesnoy]

Bee has given you a big tip on the maintenance. This is typical of small time dealers with NSXs - they get em and usually don't have records and in this case there weren't many to have. You figure adding 5k to the price and then answer the question - is the car worth 3iK+??? It may not be and if the overall condition is something you don't like then pass on it.

The lowering issue and the wheels -are totally preferrence - it will not hurt the car to lower it and scraping the front lip - well - who knows what's gone on there - but just scrapping due to low profile will not hurt the car. May not be nice cosmetically but that's another issue - not a structural one. The wheels - well so many change those out it's no big deal. Believe me if you wanted to trade those wheels for the original stock wheels you'll have plenty of takers. The guy that bought mine I sent the original wheels to him - he didn't even want them - he offered them for free if someone wanted to pay the shipping - they may still be for sale or for give away. Whatever - so that's an easy fix. These cars in a hilly area are low enough stock - they may look better slightly lowered, and in my opinion they do - not slammed but lowered a little like Swift Sport springs would do - but they will be more prone to scraping - just the nature of the beast.

Biggest issue on these cars is to not get too excited about the initial purchase price being some big "deal" - that is never the story 99% of the time - there will always be a bunch of things to do to get em just right. 5k is a minimum for what this one will take and 70+k miles will show some wear to the side bolster I would bet and other things in the cabin most likely. AC, stereo - man there is a host of stuff to worry about with an old NSX. Without records - it's a crap shoot. Shawn gives out advice he can take cause he's a DIY KING DADDY - but for the rest of us mere mortals that pay others for work - man it's most likely going to cost more than 5k to get this one right - and MAN I WOULD NOT DISCOUNT THIS AT ALL- this is a big purchase and i you want a good taste in your mouth buy one you can see records on - maintenance history - ownership history - a real owner to talk to - there are others out there that are not at thise little dealers. They may be nice but nice doesn't get you much - nice when they take your 26k - yea - I'd be nice too but you don't want to be a sucker.

Nuff said - word to the wise....

And you guys didn't think you'd see another epistle out of me....hahahahahahaha.

Adios

Thanks, tbromley.

It looks like you are the cautious type much like me. I appreciate your advice. I'll definitely have to investigate the maintenance records and vehicle history report of this vehicle if there is any to be investigated. If not, I'll probably pass or try to get the price lowered to compensate for any surprises I could encounter post purchase. My biggest concern is inspecting the underside for anything indicating any road surface impacts due to lowering the car. I also think that even though the front bumper misalignment and missing spoiler could just be cosmetic, I want to be sure that it isn't something more. A steep driveway could have meant there was considerable weight put on the front end even if at slow speeds. That would mean that part of the frame could have been bent even if it's just the part that holds on the front bumper.

As far as being able to talk to a real owner, I probably won't be going that route. I'm hoping to finance the car, so dealers are probably my only option.

[TCroly]

If you have a job and acceptable credit you can arrange for your own financing through a bank or credit union. The dealer is only going to act as an intermediate to help find you a loan from a lender. You can do this on your own. But be aware, that the most that you will get as a car loan on a 1991 NSX is probably about $20,000. Most lenders will not loan more than low wholesale or loan value on any used car.

[itrsteve]

As far as being able to talk to a real owner, I probably won't be going that route. I'm hoping to finance the car, so dealers are probably my only option.

Heads up, as I found out tonight the staff at that dealer will bend over backwards to dig up any history they can give you.. They even went as far today to call a previous owner of the car to see if certain maintenance was completed or not. (btw, looking at the other NSX they have in the inventory, not the one you're interested in)

But seriously, the $180 PPI at Acura of Concord right up the road from that dealer is a solid bet if you're really worried about gambling.

[quesnoy]

If you have a job and acceptable credit you can arrange for your own financing through a bank or credit union. The dealer is only going to act as an intermediate to help find you a loan from a lender. You can do this on your own. But be aware, that the most that you will get as a car loan on a 1991 NSX is probably about $20,000. Most lenders will not loan more than low wholesale or loan value on any used car.

thanks, TCroly,

I was unaware of the 20K price ceiling for financing on a used NSX. I do have a trade-in so that will probably cover the difference, but I'll keep that in mind.

[quesnoy]

Heads up, as I found out tonight the staff at that dealer will bend over backwards to dig up any history they can give you.. They even went as far today to call a previous owner of the car to see if certain maintenance was completed or not. (btw, looking at the other NSX they have in the inventory, not the one you're interested in)

But seriously, the $180 PPI at Acura of Concord right up the road from that dealer is a solid bet if you're really worried about gambling.

Good to know, itrsteve. They seemed like a pretty legit dealership to me anyway. They have other locations, so that took away any fears that they were a shady little outfit that nobody has ever heard of. I'm not too worried about the dealership taking advantage of me. I'm just worried that the previous owner might have concealed or maybe wasn't even aware of any inner frame damage. This is a pretty delicate car we are talking about, after all. It's an aluminum frame that, while rigid in terms of handling, may be susceptible to damage from things like driveways and speed bumps. I'll just have to inspect the car with a fine-toothed comb and exercise good judgement. If I do pull the trigger on a car like this, I'm sure I'll be able to negotiate a deal where the dealer pays for the PPI. That doesn't seem like a tuff sell. Does it?

[itrsteve]

I'm sure I'll be able to negotiate a deal where the dealer pays for the PPI. That doesn't seem like a tuff sell. Does it?

That particular dealer isn't going to pay for it as they're just a consignment dealer, pretty much like a real estate agent listing a house. What they made me do was send in a purchase offer with a deposit stating I would pay X based upon the results on the PPI (but I'm still paying for it). The most you have to lose is $180, but with a large purchase I think that's a small price to pay for a little extra due diligence.

Right now the seller and I are having a difficult time agreeing on X but we're really close. It may go off to PPI today, if it does then I will make sure I forward you my report from the dealer.

The Service Manager Ronnie at Acura of Concord is extremely nice, I told him there would be a few items in particular that I am concerned about and I would like them to pay extra attention to if they could and he said not a problem at all.

[quesnoy]

That particular dealer isn't going to pay for it as they're just a consignment dealer, pretty much like a real estate agent listing a house. What they made me do was send in a purchase offer with a deposit stating I would pay X based upon the results on the PPI (but I'm still paying for it). The most you have to lose is $180, but with a large purchase I think that's a small price to pay for a little extra due diligence.

Right now the seller and I are having a difficult time agreeing on X but we're really close. It may go off to PPI today, if it does then I will make sure I forward you my report from the dealer.

The Service Manager Ronnie at Acura of Concord is extremely nice, I told him there would be a few items in particular that I am concerned about and I would like them to pay extra attention to if they could and he said not a problem at all.

Good to know. I'm actually about to post my results from inspecting the car in person about an hour ago. The post should be up shortly.

[quesnoy]

OK. So I just came from my in-person inspection and below are my findings:

Good news:
-The dealer has the original factory rims and struts (the rims need reconditioning, though).
-The dealer also has service records including documented oil changes, etc. (I think he said timing belt and water pump had been done, but not sure).
-The dealer (I talked with a guy named Rodney) was very forthcoming about all the info they had on the car that wouldn't actually show up in a carfax report.
-The dealer is still in contact with the previous owner, who was actually the third owner.

Bad news:
-The dealer said the car had actually been in a minor front end impact but it wasn't something that would set off the airbags (someone bumped the car in a parking lot or something).
-The dealer wasn't sure exactly what the previous owner had done to fix the front bumper. He thinks it was maybe just a repaint.
-As bee_are_bee mentioned, this car does indeed, need clear coat repair on the roof. Rodney said it would be around $300. Who knows if that's accurate.
-The interior has been literally cooked from heat exposure. The center consol trim plate has lots of bubbling and the stereo head unit is completely toasted. The volume knob is actually melted and doesn't turn freely. Some of the preset buttons don't depress. The Climate control looks OK, though, and seats are decent looking.
-The spare tire was also cracked on the side wall due to heat.
-There was evidence of scuffing underneath the front bumper back behind where the missing chin spoiler would be. Mostly plastic panels though, so not a big problem.

Upon further inspection of the front bumper, I discovered that some structural bits were definitely bent. I've included pictures. Feel free to comment on them. The pictures are of the left and right ducts (where the factory fog lights would go). There is a dark metal bracket of some sort on each side. You'll notice that the driver side bracket is bent downward while the passenger side bracket is parallel with the bottom edge of the duct. I felt around to see how solid the brackets were, and they are hard metal, not easily bent. I'll probably take these pictures to an Acura dealership or body shop to ask their opinion before an actual PPI. But let me know what you guys think. Thanks.