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Aerochargers TT more testing
- Thread starter DDozier
- Start date
Are you using a FIC? What do you mean no header?Where are the turbos?
The system as designed bolts directly to the OEM 97+ factory headers so no aftermarket headers or custom fabricated headers are used. The turbos mount to a mounting frame that is suspended by the factory exhaust hangers, there are small connecting pipes that join the OEM headers to the turbo inlets, the rest of the exhaust tubing, cats and muflers are all in the same space as the original OEM exhaust system and hangs from the same frame holding the turbos. the entire system can be dropped from the car as a whole assembly once it is disconnected from the OEM headers and the charge tubing. It is easier to dissasemble the rack and remove the turbos first then the rest of the exhaust but with two guys it can come down assembled.
I am running a F/IC
This pic is from the early stages of the fabrication and shows the mounting frame and turbos in their relative possitions. Once the rest of the tubing, cats and exhaust is installed the frame is really hard to see. If you have seen pics of the original BEGI system the layout is similar but can not be copied exactly as the larger turbos required a larger area and larger tubing so things have to be moved around a little.
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_00333.jpg" />
Dave
Everything is tucked up and nothing hangs lower than the OEM mufler did.
The WTA intercooler is inside the OEM intake manifold.
Dave
What do you mean "inside the intake manifold?"
The intercooler is inside the OEM intake and takes the place if the VVIS plate internally, if you study the OEM intake design and look at the three pieces that make up the assembly the upper portion of the intake manifold has the runners for each intake port, the middle piece is the VVIS plate, and the bottom piece is what seals the air path and provides the added volume of air the VVIS system uses. The air enter through the throttle body and moves across the VVIS not through it. All I did was change the incoming air path with small diverting plates welded into the upper part of the intake manifold to redirect the air down through what use to be the VVIS plate and is now my intercooler core. Once the air is redirected after the throttle body the air is forced to pass through the intercooler core and then is redirected by the bottom portion of the intake manifold to pass through the core again and onto the upper portion of the intake manifold to the runners and then the heads.
If you look at the air path from a side view of the assembled intake manifold the flow and path is quite smooth and short compared to some other WTA setups I have seen and much less restrictive than what the OEM's are doing with their in the intake intercooler systems.
To start with the OEM intake was removed and disassembled, cleaned and prepped for welding, the VVIS plate was removed and the new intercooler core was fabricated to the exact same dimensions as the original VVIS assembly.
Intercooler Core:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Intercooler6.jpg" />
The small aluminum diverters were fabricated to redirect the air entering the intake manifold just after the throttle body and force all the incoming air to move down through the intercooler core for the first time.
Diverters:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Intake-Diverters.jpg" />
The core is installed in place of the VVIS:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Intake_w-Intercooler.jpg" />
A view from the throttle body looking into the intake manifold, the small support in the middle was ported and polished to a knife edge finish to reduce any restriction:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Throtlebody_w-diverters.jpg" />
The bottom plate goes on, notice the shape of the bottom plate and how it forces the redirected air from the upper part of the intake to move towards the rear of the intake manifold and back up through the core into the main chamber of the intake and onto the intake runners. Almost like Honda had this in mind when they made the bottom chamber:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Intake_Assembly2.jpg" />
With the intake reassembled the air is forced to cross the core of the intercooler twice, Bell Engineering did the final calculations for core size and water flow and did the core assemble for me. They estimated the core could handle 600HP and would provide less than a .5psi pressure drop across the core. It may be important to note that my measured boost levels are taken from the same place the OEM MAP sensor is referencing boost so they are all before the pressure drop caused by the core. I did not think about it until I had the unit reassembled and back in the car but I would need to drill and tap the intake and add another pressure transducer to measure the real pressure drop caused by the core. I may do it someday but it is a lot of extra work to do it now and it will not effect or increase the performance but would help put a number on the efficiency of the design.
Dave
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Turbo - This has been around for 10+ years but disapeared in obscurity when the company stopped producing them, and ONE guy complained that he damaged his engine.
This is the most bad @$$ turbo system for the nsx in the <500RWPH as far as I'm concerned.
I am not so sure about the most unique but I came up with the intercooler in the intake idea about 6 years ago when I was trying to setup an intercooler on my CTSC and could not plan it out any better than DA and I was not willing to loose my engine cover. When Chis at SOS came out with the Laminova intercooler I had one of the cores on my desk trying to figure out how to do one without raising the blower height and could not figure out a way. My core surface area is similar to the DA core but the DA core is only able to utilize about half of the core because of the were the blower discharge is, and the charge air passes through the core one time not twice like mine. So far the results from track testing have proven the core to be effective and able to keep IAT under control, for street use the system has no problem keeping IAT's in the 120* range.
I am using DA front mounted heat exchanger and SOS pump kit for WTA intercoolers, the pump is mounted on a custom bracket under the ABS unit up front. My goal was stealth so the spare tire had to remain in the car if I wanted it to be there. The SOS kit uses the spare tire space to mount his pump and holding tank so I had to rework everything they sent and ended up only using the pump and making my own brackets.
Here is the pump:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_0218.jpg" />
Here is the heat exchanger mounted:
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_0217.jpg" />
Dave
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While my system has been on the car since 2010 and was at NSXPO 2010 in Las Vegas it is loosly based on the BEGI system, the only thing the two kits share in common is the name on the turbos, all other aspects of the design are different. Before someone starts saying I stole my design form this guy or that guy, keep in mind that packaging any turbo system on a NSX will be very similar. There is not a lot of room and not too many ways to make things work. If you feel I ripped off your design just look at it as a very sincere form of flattery that your design was cool enough to go on my car.:biggrin:
Dave
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So what is the fuel system? What are your injectors? Are you using a Walboro pump? Are you running a FIC for emission reasons instead of a standalone? Are you on the stock head gasket? would this IC actually work with a SC? What made you move away from the SC and into the aerochargers?
Fuel System is typical for this power level, walbro, RC550cc injectors, F/IC.
Engine is completely stock except for the intake modification.
I sold my CTSC car and wanted to try something different.
This type of intercooler will only work with the OEM intake so turbos, BBSC, Rotrex, Vortech, Procharger, will all work but the CTSC or SOS SC will not work as they replace the OEM intake for there own design.
We have OBDII plug in emmisions test here so F/IC is the best option for my situation.
Dave
I actually shopped this idea around to a few NSX vendors before I built the prototype unit and did not get any interest. So I built the first one and took it to NSXPO looking for a vendor, still no interest. So I have the only one for now. I have considered making more but I have a day job and this is a hobby so it is hard to devote time and resources to a project long term and that is what is needed to market and sell a product like this. I was hoping to find an existing vendor that would want to use the design in their kit and let them handle the marketing and customer support. Our pool of potencial customers is so small that a project like this cannot sustain a new company but would compliment an existing product like the SOS twin turbo or Luvfab Turbo kit quite nicely.
Dave
Dave! I had no idea that's how you had your WA setup. I'm suprised it does so well with such a small core! . Talk about efficient!
. Talk about efficient!
Parts are about $9000.00, labor for fab, install and tune would be about 3500.00-4500.00 depending on some options and coatings of the parts. So basically you could buy this setup for about $12-13,000.00. You can build it for less if you put in the time but to pay someone that is where you will end up. Keep in mind that the single largest expense on this system is the 2 Aerochargers at $5200.00 for the pair. Add in some gauges or a stand-a-lone ECU and the price keeps moving higher. I stopped counting a while back on my actual cost to develope this system but setting my time aside I have less invested than if I went with the SOS twins and that would be my second choice in FI right now.
Dave
Dave! I had no idea that's how you had your WA setup. I'm suprised it does so well with such a small core!
The core is small but it gets two shots at cooling the charged air and it happens almost at the intake runner so there is less time to reheat the air as the intake manifold is ussually heat soaked in our engine bay. I also think there is a side benifit to the core in the intake that helps to recuce the heat soak effect of the OEM intake as the core is always drawing heat out of the system even if the Turbos are not spooling. So far so good and with two years on the street and several track days the design has worked out well.
Dave
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So what else are you trying to improve on this still? The big advantage I see on this system versus others isn't so much the variable vanes but the lack of necessity for oiling and cooling. If that is reliable, that is a HUGE advantage. I need to read up more on the turbo itself.
The only changes made to the system since it was first installed was a redesign of the exhaust after the turbos, I had not played with turbos before so did not know what to expect as far as exhaust sound and tone. Everythign I read said the exhaust sound would be quite due to the quieting effect the turbos had on the exhaust sound. I also knew that the CTSC setup I had without cats was way to loud for my taste. So my first exhaust setup was simple and from the turbos back I only had cats then straight to tips. While this was very quiet on idle anything over 2k RPM was way too loud for my tastes. So I had to redesign the exhaust setup to incorporate cats, muflers and an X-pipe to help control sound to a more OEM sound level. I ended up remaking the exhaust section after I got back from NSXPO in 2010 and it has been the same ever since. Oh and I am still playing with the vane controllers to play with the spool rate.
If AEM ever releases the Infinity-10 I will make the move to the new ECU and deal with the emmisions issues at the time of plate renewals. I will have to learn the new ECU anyway and might as well learn it on my car. I am excited to see if my idea of programming the vane controllers via the spare DBW circiut that the I-10 has will work. IF it does then I will have any spool rate and any boost level at any RPM all programmable and can set it to react to any other sensor connected to the I-10. This will give the system complete flexibility and the control will only be limited by ones willingness to test and program. With this hopefully simple addition I will have OEM level tuning control of how the turbo acts. But that is phase two if I ever get there.
Dave
I don't understand how that would be helpful. Why would you want to spool at different rates rather than as soon as possible. Does the "spare" DBW circuit get its input from the factory one or are we talking about replacing the factory alltogether?
Are you going to go I10 just for this control and the fine tuning you want to do on the turbos or is the FIC really limiting you right now with something? I understand that ignition control is not ideal but you are running cool and producing a lot of power already so what is the point of further efficiency other than MPG?
Are you going to go I10 just for this control and the fine tuning you want to do on the turbos or is the FIC really limiting you right now with something? I understand that ignition control is not ideal but you are running cool and producing a lot of power already so what is the point of further efficiency other than MPG?
With the I-10 you can get rid of the OEM ECU completely as the new ECU has the ability to run all of the cars systems including the honda DBW. It has the ability to run two seperate DBW systems and my plan was to use that 2nd DBW circuit to turn the vanes in the turbos. This approch will allow for an infinite amount of control of the vanes. One of the bennifits will be to use the vane controller to limit power and act as a secondary traction control, or boost vs. speed, or as a trim for power and reliability of the engine itself. Lets say the car is operating under normal conditions with IAT, ECT and all other sensors in a normal state then the ECU says it is OK to use full boost, but if any sensor starts to move outside of normal conditions boost could be limited untill the condition returns to normal. Right now the vane controller does not know the ECU exists and the ECU does not know the vane controller exists.
Another benifit would be for performance and spool rate, right now my spool rate is controlled by the at rest possition of the mechanical vane controller. If I want the spool rate to be as fast as possible I have to set the vane contoller for that possition this could cause a choke point in the exhaust durring light load and idle conditions and effect drivability and economy. If I can set the vane possition any where I want it any time I want I can have my cake and eat it too. Its like the difference between a light switch and a dimmer, they both turn on the light but only one will let you pick the perfect setting for the room. You can change the light bulb to change the mood in the room but it is easier to turn the knob on the dimmer and pick the perfect amount of light.
Dave
They are in the rear quarter pannels above the fender liners, they have acces to freash air fromt the fender vents located on either side of the car.
Dave
