Maybe blew an oil gear tracking saturday at SOW.

Drove Streets CCW this past Saturday the 14th in the NSX. Car felt really good from the start (video coming soon). Second to last session starts and I warm up a few laps then fly down the straight, heal toe from the top of third to second for the skid pad, I over rev a bit and the car gets reallly loose. No problem, give it gas, loose again humm weird. Finish turns 3-4 and 5 at 70% and start up the back straight when my idiot lights come on. Oil pressure and check engine. BAHHH!
Heindsight I should just shut it down right then and there but I limped it back around at >5 mph to the pits. Can't get it into first or reverse. After cooling down an bit I jackit up and check underneath for spills and dip for oil level. There was some weeping out of the filter and at the push on hoses to the oil cooler but nothing enough to be worried about. I look for other obvious problems, nothing apparent. I then check the pressure gage on my accusump, no pressure. I pulled the 20amp fuse for 30 seconds to reset the ecu and carefully restart the car again hoping it was just in limp mode. No CEL this time but still the oil light on and no pressure at the sump. motor sounds pretty rough and I kill it after 5 seconds. No pressure after an over rev sounds like ominously like an oil gear failure to me and not good in any scenario.

I flat bedded with AAA home 98 miles of a 100 mile free tow, hah, silver lining i guess.. I almost started the job of pulling the oil pan off but to do that all the manifolds, diffuser etc have got to come off too. After thinking about my limited free time and the possibility of what could be broken, paying someone else to fix it sounds alot more realistic.

I had the 60k service done maybe 4000 miles ago and put maybe 6 track days on it since then. The annoying part is due to a mix up I actually have the billet oil gear that showed up AFTER the 60k service was finished. I decided putting it in after the fact @ $1100 labor was too hard for me to swallow. As soon as I can arrange a truck the car will be in good hands. I'm just dreading the diagnosis. Hopefully I didn't score the cyl walls or cam journals or something else really REALLY expensive.
Anyone have any ideas of what else it could be, preferably something easy and cheap :redface:

illwillem said:

I over rev a bit and the car gets reallly loose.

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What do you mean, "a bit"? A "money shift" is nothing more than overrevving a bit. And that may be what you did.

nsxtasy said:

What do you mean, "a bit"? A "money shift" is nothing more than overrevving a bit. And that may be what you did.

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+1. Sorry, for your problems. If it was enough to lock up the rear even a bit then you probably did the money shift. It doesn't matter if you are going 3-4 and hit 2nd or 3 and hit 2nd at too high a speed. The rear locking from an over rev and the resultant oil issue is a pretty big indicator that your wallet is going to be a lot lighter. I don't have any experience there so I can't give you any insight to what you are looking at, but it ain't going to be good.

There are two spots at my home track (Putnam Park) where I really need to be in a lower gear. However, they are both at the end of straights were I need to brake, downshift and turn all at the same point and I have come to the conclusion that the 1/10th of second I gain is not worth the risk. Instead I have been working on keeping it in the higher gear and improving my entry speeds thus keeping the revs up and somewhat negating the feeling that I need that lower gear. I have since concluded from my data logger that I am actually faster now leaving it in the higher gear. For example my data from turn 1 at Putnam shows a L leaving it in 4th versus a V by using 3rd because I'm having to over brake the car in order to use 3rd. Not to mention - doing exactly what you just did. Turn 7 is a tight 45 mph hairpin. Here I have to do the 3-2-3, which in its own right looses time every time I have to shift. So instead I have worked on leaving it in 3rd and trailbraking and carrying more speed to keep the revs up in 3rd for the exit. I'm still faster doing the 3-2-3, but not by much - maybe a 1/10th. Not worth the wear and tear and risk of the money shift.

Hope your fix isn't too expensive - but I would brace yourself for the looming news to come. :frown:

Also, if you ever see an oil pressure light on the dash, immediately shut the engine off.

On the NSX, idle oil pressure on a hot engine is around 10 psi at the sender location on the oil filter base. Therefore, you figure to keep the oil light off, the switch setpoint is probably around 5 psi or so on the dummy light. Page 8-5 of the SM....

The Accusump won't protect the engine from accidental overreving, but should help in all other scenarios. Sorry :frown:

Dave

oh man.. i feel for you. SOW (CCW) also took my car victim two weeks ago. Nick @ Applied Motorsports and I think the snap ring finally gave up so in a strange way I suppose I had it coming. I won't know for sure until we open it but I lost 2-4-R and half a lap before that 2nd gear jerked around as if I lost a motor mount. SOW is a bit harsh on the cars I feel. Replacement trans on the way but these failures are not cheap

Btw.. where you driving the Big Track with the 1st Gen RX7 2 wks ago? I met a nice fella who had the same color NSX as you but his name escapes me at the moment. I was driving the Black Supercharged parked next to Kuni's White NA2.

A 'bit' I would be about mid to upper 8k. Top of third to on the brakes really hard and down shift for the hairpin. Its only maybe 3/4 of a second hard on brakes directly after the shift light so it doest really let the revs settle much before the blip. I hear what your saying though, judgment over valor and all. But as I was trying different approaches to turn 1 in ccw configuration and had noticed improvement in lap time while trying that line. Gee that sounds really stupid to hear myself say now, but I guess red mist starts hanging thick over better judgment when approaching a new personal best.

Running on sub 5psi oil pressure like your saying, even at just about idle for 4min while i curculated back to the pit, you think even that'll be enough for catastrophic damage?

Don't know why im asking, really, since i'll find out soon enough.:frown:

anytime the car goes home on a flatbed sucks......you'll know soon enough.Just in case start looking for used engines...ya never know when one will pop up for sale.

illwillem said:

Running on sub 5psi oil pressure like your saying, even at just about idle for 4min while i curculated back to the pit, you think even that'll be enough for catastrophic damage?

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I don't mean to poke, but that is what I do best.

But will your brain suffer catastrophic damage if you run it without blood or oxygen for 4 minutes? Oil is necessary for even an idling engine - regardless of what those Prolong infomercials of the 80s use to claim/show. :tongue:

And in my previous post, I didn't mean to sound gloating or anything. I'm sure we all feel bad for a possibly major problem on your NSX. Especially those of us, including me, who have been there before. :frown: So I'm sorry to hear about it. The good news is, even the worst problems can be fixed. The bad news is, it may be expensive. For me, the entire episode, including the cost of a used 3.0 engine and other parts, the dealer labor to install, the 200+ mile tow, and what I got back for my old block, ran around $9K. A little over $2K of that would have been spent soon anyway as part of normal scheduled maintenance, since it included a new timing belt and water pump and all the cooling system hoses and fluids, thereby resetting all the maintenance intervals for those items.

If the question is hold my breath for 4 min or pay 9k, id sure as shit try.

I take no offense to the ribbing, its a bummer situation but its good to know that im in good company as far as blowing stuff up. Just got confirmation that its getting unloaded at the shop as I type. Ill keep the updates coming.

Strangely enough an NSX engine with 32k 1994 c30 just came up for sale today local to me. i hope its not a sign.

illwillem said:

If the question is hold my breath for 4 min or pay 9k, id sure as shit try.

I take no offense to the ribbing, its a bummer situation but its good to know that im in good company as far as blowing stuff up. Just got confirmation that its getting unloaded at the shop as I type. Ill keep the updates coming.

Strangely enough an NSX engine with 32k 1994 c30 just came up for sale today local to me. i hope its not a sign.

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A used engine might be the cheapest route for you but you are still looking at some serious $$ after you do any needed maintenance + engine swap.

EdinKali said:

A used engine might be the cheapest route for you but you are still looking at some serious $$ after you do any needed maintenance + engine swap.

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Well, $9K is serious, no? IIRC $300-500 of that figure was for shipping the engine from Phoenix to Chicago, so one that's local to you would avoid that.

What I found (in 2006) was that used 3.0-liter engines were going for $4-6K, and 3.2-liters for $8-10K.

illwillem said:

If the question is hold my breath for 4 min or pay 9k, id sure as shit try.

I take no offense to the ribbing, its a bummer situation but its good to know that im in good company as far as blowing stuff up. Just got confirmation that its getting unloaded at the shop as I type. Ill keep the updates coming.

Strangely enough an NSX engine with 32k 1994 c30 just came up for sale today local to me. i hope its not a sign.

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If you have the money to spare - you should buy that motor. Even if you don't need it right now, you can start buying the parts to build it up and when the time comes, have it built and installed.

I'm sorry to hear about your trouble.

It would definitely be a good idea to inspect the engine. Your first step would be to drain the oil with a filter in the funnel to inspect any debris in the oil. We're happy to offer our engine rebuild services if you do need it.

We also have a brand new product that may help you:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/engine_performance_products/NSX/ScienceofSpeed/oil_pump_gear/

With this new oil gear, it is enlarged both on the outer diameter as well as the thickness - this is greatly beneficial when there is a failure of, or contaminants in, the oil pump since the housing can be reused. The pumps now a days have gotten to be very expensive (around $700 list). Installing a new billet gear, with the machining included, is less expensive and quite an upgrade to the factory design.

-- Chris

You guys are about to convince me to stop tracking the NSX completely and just concentrate on racing the Formula Mazda. I just got a trailer and am about to get a tow vehicle, so I'm mobile with the FM now.

Richard EVO said:

You guys are about to convince me to stop tracking the NSX completely and just concentrate on racing the Formula Mazda. I just got a trailer and am about to get a tow vehicle, so I'm mobile with the FM now.

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I've been thinking the same. It's an expensive car to maintain but it's also so rewarding to learn to drive well.

I keep tossing back and forth on picking up a BRZ, though I think it'll be rewarding in it's own way, it wont' be as rewarding as an NSX. We'll have to wait and see.

Richard, I saw your formula racer the other day whilst talking to the guys where you store it about buying a Kart, Man that thing is fucking cool.

I was also talking to a buddy of mine as my car was sailing off on a flatbed into the sunset about how, right then, I wish I decided to go with an ITR as track car instead; or at least something more 'disposable'. I love the NSX more than most- which is why I wanted and got one, but its also what holds me back a bit when driving it, not enough apparently. :[

Very true point though RYU, I don't think many cars will be as rewarding to get good in as the NSX. And definitely nothing beats the looks people give you when you pull up in one ready to potentially beat it to death at the track. Its a mixed look of admiration and lunacy. Not sure if either of those points are worth the cost of admission on their own but it sure is a nice bonus to owning one.

I don't mean any disrespect but, I have been reading this thread and maybe its me being naive but when I track the car since I am not racing in a series for points and contingencies I am not all the hard on the car. I shift around 7K, heel toe and all that fun stuff but knock on wood no problems yet. I know that the snap ring and the oil pump gear are the 2 big ones but if you treat your car nice it will treat your credit card nice!

I am not an expert but maybe this was driver error in this case and its really not the fault of the NSX? Not sure? I really like SOW and go there often I can see how if you late brake into the skidpad you could over rev there. I am usually at about 100 ish in 3rd braking hard right after the start / finish line into 2nd right before turn in around 5K rpm (i think)

Richard EVO said:

You guys are about to convince me to stop tracking the NSX completely and just concentrate on racing the Formula Mazda. I just got a trailer and am about to get a tow vehicle, so I'm mobile with the FM now.

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g3driver said:

I don't mean any disrespect but, I have been reading this thread and maybe its me being naive but when I track the car since I am not racing in a series for points and contingencies I am not all the hard on the car. I shift around 7K, heel toe and all that fun stuff but knock on wood no problems yet. I know that the snap ring and the oil pump gear are the 2 big ones but if you treat your car nice it will treat your credit card nice!

I am not an expert but maybe this was driver error in this case and its really not the fault of the NSX? Not sure? I really like SOW and go there often I can see how if you late brake into the skidpad you could over rev there. I am usually at about 100 ish in 3rd braking hard right after the start / finish line into 2nd right before turn in around 5K rpm (i think)

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I know what you mean about trying to be easy on your car. I'm like you as well. I try to shift below 7.5k. With the CTSC it's gotten easier to do that. My snap ring problem was going to out at some point anyway but SOW has a lot of long 2nd gear on-off throttle....

I noticed that when I started racing to beat my own time I inevitably drive my car harder. Do you rent a lap time counter?

illwillem - sorry to hear about your car, hope the damage isn't too bad. always sucks to have issues at the track.

to the OP and others who have commented on SOW - what kind of laptimes are you guys running? just curious at what point there starts being mechanical issues when tracking the nsx (although I'm sure driving style plays a role too)...

Richard EVO said:

You guys are about to convince me to stop tracking the NSX completely and just concentrate on racing the Formula Mazda. I just got a trailer and am about to get a tow vehicle, so I'm mobile with the FM now.

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The NSX can be a very reliable track car, but no car is immune to problems. In my case, I drove my NSX 13,000 actual track miles and always revved to the 8000 RPM redline (NOT above) and never overrevved it or did a money shift. My engine failed because the crankshaft pulley came apart, and thereby rubbed through the cover for the timing belt. There are things you can do to avoid this particular sequence of events: changing the crankshaft pulley every 6-8 years (it's an inexpensive part and easy to replace) and/or installing one of titaniumdave's timing belt cover shields. Do that, as well as the usual stuff like checking oil levels regularly etc, and you will be unlikely to experience an engine failure, even in track use.

Well heres the video. Some laps and the event at the end.
As far as lap times my personal best is a 1:25:9. The NSX is TOTALLY reliable track car, things like this just happen when driving hard. I just consider them 'school fees'

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KCk6R9gu37Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1:25s going CCW. That's FAST. I'm going to use your line thru the bowl. I've been double apexing that :redface:. Si (prime member) was doing that in his S2k also.

Man.. that was tough seeing that at the end. I relived the feeling of when my trans grenaded just a couple of wks ago on the same track.

I do rent a transponder sometimes, just started using harrys lap timer.
I ran 2/12/2012 SOW (CCW) 1:34.710 68.400 Blue 2

just taking it easy and with stock springs and bilsteins.

RYU said:

I know what you mean about trying to be easy on your car. I'm like you as well. I try to shift below 7.5k. With the CTSC it's gotten easier to do that. My snap ring problem was going to out at some point anyway but SOW has a lot of long 2nd gear on-off throttle....

I noticed that when I started racing to beat my own time I inevitably drive my car harder. Do you rent a lap time counter?

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wow! thats fast!

illwillem said:

Well heres the video. Some laps and the event at the end.
As far as lap times my personal best is a 1:25:9. The NSX is TOTALLY reliable track car, things like this just happen when driving hard. I just consider them 'school fees'

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KCk6R9gu37Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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