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Thread: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

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    Registered User Accel Junky's Avatar
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    Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    I'd like to run a second tuned map with my Lovefab setup at a higher boost level. I'm just wondering what exactly I need to plan on before I go to a tuner...as in, do I have everything I need already hooked up.

    The car has the AEM FIC and TruBoost (looks like 2 solenoids for some reason) as installed by Lovefab. The meth/water kit is an AEM as well running 50/50 and is set to come on at .5 or 1psi and the "Full psi" dial is set around 32psi.

    I'd like to either toggle a second boost setting on the TruBoost and trigger a map change in the FIC or install a toggle switch that changes the FIC map and truboost accordingly.

    Is this possible with these components? I'd like to get the switching set up before I take it in for the tune so that I'm only paying the tuner to tune the second map and the second boost setting on the TruBoost.

    And for the curious I'm at around 435whp at 8-8.5psi currently on a stock 3.2L. What I'm looking at doing is retuning the primary map
    to maybe 475whp and running a second map at say 525-550whp for occasional use.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Accel Junky; 04-23-2012 at 09:08.
    1998 NSX-T Lovefab
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    2005 Acura TL Sport 6spd

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    Charter Gold DDozier's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    You only need to change the TruBoost to allow for the higher boost level and then tune for the higher boost level. The F/IC will not need to change to a different map. If you are running 10 lbs and the tune is done, running anything under 10 lbs should be covered by the 10lb tune as you have to go through all the other pressure levels to get to 10lbs. Having said that the key is to have the tune be complete meaning that every possible cell that the car will populate at every boost level has been tuned. There will be cells you hit with a 6lb tune that you will not hit with a 10lb tune.

    Once the car is tuned for the highest peak boost you will be running dropping the boost with the TruBoost should not require any MAP changes in the F/IC. You can change to a second map but unless you are changing something other than peak boost there is no need to change to the second map. One reason to use the second map would be for a meth tune and a non-meth tune. In this case the meth will allow for a greatly increased timing table over the fuel only tune and in this case to take advantage of the meth you would want a second tune to lean out the fuel and add timing.

    Your best bet will be to have the tune done on a load based dyno and it will take time to hit and setup all the cells in the map.

    I run two different spings in my twin turbo setup and I do not have to switch anything other than the springs to change boost levels the F/IC map is unchanged but tuned for both peak boost levels. As part of my tuning process i started with the least amount of boost, tuned the car, moved to the next spring and next highest boost level, tuned the car. I continued this process untill all the cells that the car would hit in the fuel map were tuned. Now my map is good for whatever spring I intend to put in. You can do the same with the boost controller starting at the least amount of boost and moving through the boost levels untill you reach the peak level you want to run. Then any level below that peak is tuned and safe to run.

    As this is all WOT tuning on a dyno it should not take very long maybe 2-3 pulls at each boost level to dial in the tune for each boost level.

    Post up some dyno sheets when you are done, you are going a lot higher than I would go on my stock bottom 3.2l but then again I am not running meth.

    Dave
    92 red/ivory - SOLD, 91 silver/blk, CTSC - SOLD
    04 red/blk, Honey we had TWINS! 8.4lbs@442whp

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    Registered User E-Nough Logic's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Unless you are running two different types of fuel, one map will do the trick when tuned properly. If the car is already tuned and you are going back to the same tuner you should not be paying for a full tune increasing the boost and tuning a few more psi should take less than an hour.

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    Registered User Accel Junky's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Thanks for the replies. It sounds like I'm good to just show up and get rockin'. The car was tuned by LoveFab originally, then tuned for Texas by JoTech. I originally decided to get the tuned cleaned up for GA weather (and since the tune was last done in late 2009 or early 2010 I believe) but then I realized I could take advantage of the appointment to bump the boost a tad.

    I'm not 100% set on running the power levels mentioned, but if the boost is low enough at 500-525whp I would feel comfortable running that for occasional bursts especially with the combination of air to water intercooler and meth/water injection.

    If it is making 435whp in a 100F shop in GA (my last dyno pull 2011) at 8psi, I'm thinking probably 11psi for 500whp and 12.5psi for 52whp. I'd guess around 12psi is probably about as high as one would want to go on a stock 3.2L with 50/50 meth water?
    1998 NSX-T Lovefab
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    Registered User kookoo4nsx's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    I did not know it was possible to get 500-525hp out of an turbo system with F/IC. I was under the impression that one of limiting factors of the F/IC was it's ability to pull timing (-10?)and I think I read somewhere that 9 1/2 psi was about the max. I am going to guess 500-525rwhp is somewhere about 12psi.

    I assume you have a bulit motor with low compression, studs and cometic head gaskets? (EDIT: I just reread your post. I think your nuts going 475-525hp on a stock motor!)


    Also to DDozier is this statement correct? "There will be cells you hit with a 6lb tune that you will not hit with a 10lb tune." or did you mean cells you will hit with 10lb that you would not hit with 6lb?

    Thanks
    Last edited by kookoo4nsx; 04-23-2012 at 15:17.
    1993 Red/Black NSX. Angus Turbo. 7.5 PSI
    400 RWHP 1/4 mile 12.39 at 118mph!

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    Charter Gold DDozier's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by kookoo4nsx View Post
    Also to DDozier is this statement correct? "There will be cells you hit with a 6lb tune that you will not hit with a 10lb tune." or did you mean cells you will hit with 10lb that you would not hit with 6lb?

    Thanks
    Both of these statements are true.

    Dave
    92 red/ivory - SOLD, 91 silver/blk, CTSC - SOLD
    04 red/blk, Honey we had TWINS! 8.4lbs@442whp

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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by kookoo4nsx View Post
    I did not know it was possible to get 500-525hp out of an turbo system with F/IC. I was under the impression that one of limiting factors of the F/IC was it's ability to pull timing (-10?)and I think I read somewhere that 9 1/2 psi was about the max. I am going to guess 500-525rwhp is somewhere about 12psi.
    With Meth your total timing will be higher than without. So where you may only retard 8 degrees of timing on 8 lbs of boost while running pump gas with Meth you may be able to get away with only retarding 4 degrees on the same 8lbs of boost due to the higher octane rating of the Meth. Meth will extend the available timing retard range into higher boost levels.

    Dave
    92 red/ivory - SOLD, 91 silver/blk, CTSC - SOLD
    04 red/blk, Honey we had TWINS! 8.4lbs@442whp

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    Registered User E-Nough Logic's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by kookoo4nsx View Post
    I did not know it was possible to get 500-525hp out of an turbo system with F/IC. I was under the impression that one of limiting factors of the F/IC was it's ability to pull timing (-10?)and I think I read somewhere that 9 1/2 psi was about the max. I am going to guess 500-525rwhp is somewhere about 12psi.

    I assume you have a bulit motor with low compression, studs and cometic head gaskets? (EDIT: I just reread your post. I think your nuts going 475-525hp on a stock motor!)


    Also to DDozier is this statement correct? "There will be cells you hit with a 6lb tune that you will not hit with a 10lb tune." or did you mean cells you will hit with 10lb that you would not hit with 6lb?

    Thanks
    If a car is tuned up to 10psi then the tune should encompass all boost values at and below that. The car should be more than capable of running 6psi all the time. On the opposite end of the spectrum you could not run 10psi on a car tuned up to 6psi safely. Boost values beyond that would be "untested" and at your own risk as the tuner never checked for accurate afr and/or ignition values.

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    Registered User Accel Junky's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    I wasn't aware of the timing limitation with the FIC but I guess it makes sense. I'm running 50/50 meth/water so I'm not sure how much additional boost I could run. I figure probably 12psi would be the max for the occasional "overboost" use to hit the low 500s range. If that isn't possible with the 50/50 mix then I guess I will have to just keep it dialed back. The car originally made 465whp but that was tuned by Kenny Tran at JoTech in Texas so I don't know if the 435whp I made here in GA in 100F shop temps is comparable.

    The car has the LoveFab failsafes, I just don't know exactly what they are. There is tank level sensor in the AEM meth/water tank, and led pump flow light in my face and beyond that I'm not sure if the AEM truboost or AEM meth has been setup to kick something in the FIC.

    The tuner I'm looking at is incredibly talented, so I'm not too worried there. I just would rather figure it out now and pay him to tune than spend hours considering what the goal would be
    1998 NSX-T Lovefab
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Are u still running stock map sensor? Im wonder how many psi stock map can handle?

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    Registered User E-Nough Logic's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_tai View Post
    Are u still running stock map sensor? Im wonder how many psi stock map can handle?
    The fic has its own map sensor and the stock ecu never sees positive pressure anyway. The stock sensor does max out at 10-11psi though.

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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    How about aem ems? Do I need SOS 3 bars map sensors to run more than 12 psi?

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    Registered User E-Nough Logic's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_tai View Post
    How about aem ems? Do I need SOS 3 bars map sensors to run more than 12 psi?
    Yes. You also have to consider you want a safe margin above your intended boost level for boost cut. If you set your boost at 10-psi you would want a boost cut set at say 12-13psi you wouldn't be able to do this on the stock sensor. You always want a little head room.

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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    I'm sorry but this thread is nuts. Most experts in this FI board will agree engine life at 400hp is acceptable. 450 RWHP is, IMO acceptable with EMS(way good tune) Meth and electronic boost and high flow headers. Each 10rwhp beyond 40
    hp comes exponential risk.

    My bottom line. God Speed and may the force be with you because 12psi+Stock head bolts+ stock head gaskets + stock compression= short engine life. Inject all the meth you want but you cannot ignore the Laws of Physics.
    1993 Red/Black NSX. Angus Turbo. 7.5 PSI
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    Registered User E-Nough Logic's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by kookoo4nsx View Post
    I'm sorry but this thread is nuts. Most experts in this FI board will agree engine life at 400hp is acceptable. 450 RWHP is, IMO acceptable with EMS(way good tune) Meth and electronic boost and high flow headers. Each 10rwhp beyond 40
    hp comes exponential risk.

    My bottom line. God Speed and may the force be with you because 12psi+Stock head bolts+ stock head gaskets + stock compression= short engine life. Inject all the meth you want but you cannot ignore the Laws of Physics.
    What evidence have you based your assumptions on that the engine can't handle the power? Aren't the stock 3.2 gaskets multilayer steel vs the 3.0 ones. If they are I wouldn't run any other gasket on the market. The stock compression is not unreasonably high and i would run the same compression on a built motor. IMO meth only helps on cars at the limits of pump gas or inadequate cooling, so it wouldn't be needed in this application anyway.
    Last edited by E-Nough Logic; 04-27-2012 at 18:11.

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    Registered User Accel Junky's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    I'm probably not going to run 500rwhp daily, I was just considering it for occasional runs. I'll probably clean up the tune and shoot for around 475whp...I'm guessing 9psi for that. I'd like to trap a solid 125mph. That's my goal.

    Seems like similar setups are hitting 600rwhp at around 14psi so my assumption is that at 500rwhp I wouldn't be past 10psi.
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Alrighty, so I went to get the car tuned today. Good news is that my daily map has been cleaned up nicely and is a rather safe mid-high 11s AFRs plus the meth/water is spraying at 1.5psi now (was set to 8psi start before). That's 460whp and 370wtq at around 8.5psi or so. Dynojet. Precision 6062 billet, journal bearing.

    Bad news is that we really couldn't play around with higher boost settings. Apparently the AEM Tru Boost is spiking to 12psi briefly during spool up so if we increase the overall target boost that spike is going to be even bigger. I guess I need to get a better boost controller or upgrade to the AEM EMS before I shoot for a high boost map for 500rwhp.

    Video: http://youtu.be/C70EtBfe2Ew

    1998 NSX-T Lovefab
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    Charter Gold DDozier's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accel Junky View Post
    Alrighty, so I went to get the car tuned today. Good news is that my daily map has been cleaned up nicely and is a rather safe mid-high 11s AFRs plus the meth/water is spraying at 1.5psi now (was set to 8psi start before). That's 460whp and 370wtq at around 8.5psi or so. Dynojet. Precision 6062 billet, journal bearing.

    Bad news is that we really couldn't play around with higher boost settings. Apparently the AEM Tru Boost is spiking to 12psi briefly during spool up so if we increase the overall target boost that spike is going to be even bigger. I guess I need to get a better boost controller or upgrade to the AEM EMS before I shoot for a high boost map for 500rwhp.
    Very good results, and just about what I would expect for 8.5lbs tuned for meth on a 3.2L.

    Do you know what sping is in your wastegate now, and what boost will the car make without the controller in use? What is the duty cycle of the truboost when it is holding 8.5psi?

    Dave
    92 red/ivory - SOLD, 91 silver/blk, CTSC - SOLD
    04 red/blk, Honey we had TWINS! 8.4lbs@442whp

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    Registered User Accel Junky's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDozier View Post
    Very good results, and just about what I would expect for 8.5lbs tuned for meth on a 3.2L.

    Do you know what sping is in your wastegate now, and what boost will the car make without the controller in use? What is the duty cycle of the truboost when it is holding 8.5psi?

    Dave
    Not sure on either of those, embarrassingly. Ill have to fiddle with my gauge or ask the tuner. I would assume a 5psi spring or thereabouts.
    1998 NSX-T Lovefab
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Any updates on this? Still itching for more power or are you happy with the current setup and tune?
    1993 Red/Black NSX. Angus Turbo. 7.5 PSI
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by kookoo4nsx View Post
    Any updates on this? Still itching for more power or are you happy with the current setup and tune?
    No new updates. I had a bit of an issue with a miss but I replaced a questionable spark plug and cleaned up the coilpack contacts followed by some generous dielectric grease and that cleaned it up.

    I am definitely itching for more. I'd love to break the 500whp barrier but until I have some funds to rework the boost control setup, I just can't run any more boost reliably. After I move next summer I'll be able to refocus funds on the NSX. Probably replace the turbo with something more modern so I can get the same spool and power at a lower boost level and thus 500whp should hopefully be doable in the 9psi range.

    Also, I have a new Coyote 5.0 Mustang now that I daily drive that I'm thinking about giving the straight-line duty to. So I may leave the NSX close to where it is which is probably perfect for a road course.
    1998 NSX-T Lovefab
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    Charter Patron jorligan's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    You should be able to control the Truboost to minimize the spike. The spike may be related to keeping the gate closed too long. I have a Truboost and had no issue with boost spike on my Lovefab setup. The Truboost allows you to adjust peak boost as well as how long to keep the wastegate shut. This was the reference to the spring. By adjusting the crack pressure, you may be able to tune out the boost spike.
    98 Lovefab Monte Carlo Blue NSX, 04 Viper Silver Noble M500,05 911 Turbo S Cab,08 Audi Q7-New Hauler
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    That's crazy power for a stock 3.2. You must have big injectors and what not. I thought I was pushing my 3.2 l to 440 whp at 9 psi, 500 is crazy.
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    Charter Gold DDozier's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonic View Post
    That's crazy power for a stock 3.2. You must have big injectors and what not. I thought I was pushing my 3.2 l to 440 whp at 9 psi, 500 is crazy.
    He is at 460whp and thinking about 500whp, you have to remember the Meth is an octane inhancer, cooling agent, and a fuel source. So as long as he is spraying Meth he will need less injector to achive the same AFR, but with the additional octane he may not need to achive the same AFR, he may be able to run leaner and make more power. He may also be able to advance timing due to the higher octane and make more power.

    All of this sounds great and that is why many have turned to Water/Meth as a power adder and safety margin in high compression and non-race gas applications. The biggest issues with Meth in my mind is the consistancy of the volume sprayed and how to make sure the spray is mixed into the charge air completely to insure that each cylinder gets the same amount. Without the ability to measure and control these key issues I would not use Meth as much more than a safety device or a cooling agent. Used this way you do not have to spray very much to get the desired cooling effect and you do not need to advance timing. You will as a result not see much of a power gain over the gas only tune but the safety margin against knock will be increased. By the way you can do this with water only injection as well but the Meth is more effective.

    Dave
    92 red/ivory - SOLD, 91 silver/blk, CTSC - SOLD
    04 red/blk, Honey we had TWINS! 8.4lbs@442whp

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    Registered User Blacknot's Avatar
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    Re: Second high boost map with FIC/Truboost/AEM meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDozier View Post
    He is at 460whp and thinking about 500whp, you have to remember the Meth is an octane inhancer, cooling agent, and a fuel source. So as long as he is spraying Meth he will need less injector to achive the same AFR, but with the additional octane he may not need to achive the same AFR, he may be able to run leaner and make more power. He may also be able to advance timing due to the higher octane and make more power.

    All of this sounds great and that is why many have turned to Water/Meth as a power adder and safety margin in high compression and non-race gas applications. The biggest issues with Meth in my mind is the consistancy of the volume sprayed and how to make sure the spray is mixed into the charge air completely to insure that each cylinder gets the same amount. Without the ability to measure and control these key issues I would not use Meth as much more than a safety device or a cooling agent. Used this way you do not have to spray very much to get the desired cooling effect and you do not need to advance timing. You will as a result not see much of a power gain over the gas only tune but the safety margin against knock will be increased. By the way you can do this with water only injection as well but the Meth is more effective.

    Dave
    I agree. You can't get even distribution in all cylinders. I already had my Aem meth brain fail on my once and had to have it replaced I used mine for cooling only 80/20 water meth with the smallest nozzle. The longer I spray the richer it runs. My a/f hits 10.5 on long pulls even with 20% meth. My car has no tuning for the meth to make power. Purely used to cool and safety. At those high power levels pushing it with meth if a cylinder runs lean you will crack a ring
    00 CTSC Berlina/Black NSX #69
    06 GS430 black
    04 TSX Nighthawk black

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