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Thread: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

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    About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    In the June issue of Motor Trend there is an article about the New Dodge Viper. Now, before the blog police start wondering why this isn't in Off Topic, read me out.

    In the article, Viper brand President Ralph Gilles talks about how the design team had clinics with not only owners of Vipers but also owners of R8s, Lamborghinis and other supercars to get input on the next generation Viper. The result is a car that keeps it "iconic" design characteristics yet improved its performance, build quality, interior look and quality and added new technology to enhance the driver's experience without getting in the way. All based on owner input. In other words, they looked within for inspiration. Where as, it appears that Honda looked to Audi for inspiration on the new NSX.

    In the new NSX, I don't get that feeling I had from seeing the original 21 years ago. I'm not saying that I don't like the new NSX because I'm not sure until I see one in person. But I am disappointed that there is little if any resemblence to the "iconic" original. As Gilles put it in the MT article, "you don't mess with an icon." It appears that Dodge looked at the Viper's weaknesses and fixed them with the help of technology and its loyal owners. Has Honda asked anyone of us what we think? My point is that not just anyone is going to buy a Viper just as not just anyone will buy an NSX. At least the Viper is building on its past success. I'm still not sure Honda remembers what success is. I have always admired Honda reliability and engineering but lately their design has had much to be desired. I hope they find their way soon and that the new NSX is more than what I've seen so far. I'll now surrender the soap box to the ladies and gantlemen of Prime.

    By the way the new Viper is beautiful and not kit car looking like the old one. Especially the interior.

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...k/viewall.html

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    Charter Gold BD's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Honda is not in a good position right now due to many reasons.

    Success comes from conviction, and they have lost that conviction. However, I’m start to see that returning with the current CEO.

    Keep in mind that Honda is not in the same financial situation as Dodge because of several reasons, even though the Viper is sold over seas, it is not designed as a global car, not to mention Honda does not have the financial backing of the U.S government and Fiat while still cleaning up from the Tsunami.

    Also, Honda is currently being beaten by the same method that put them as a top car maker; the Koreans industries are enjoying lower costs in every aspect, while Honda is fighting the strong yen, the highest corporate tax in the world (US and Japan), pressure from the share holders to increase gross sales without worrying about the margin, and a global market that favors either the really cheap or super luxurious cars.

    In fact, that goes with all other industries from Japan. If I told you fifteen years ago Sony will be losing $8 billion dollars a year and requires restructuring to survived, most will say I'm crazy. Korean brands are killing Japanese brands in every aspect. When was the last time you saw Panasonic, JVC, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, and Hitachi TV? Or even a TV commercial to advertise their products? Gone are the days of highend electronics such as $8000 TV and $3000 Bluray players because people no longer see the values for those types of products.

    I replaced my Honda S2000 with a fully loaded Pilot because of my dogs. I got the car for $600 over invoice and bought the 120K extended warrantee; with tax and license, OTD price was less than $37K. The equally equipped car from Europe cost at least $20 grand more while similar car from Korea is around $5k less. The marketing position is not good.


    It will take some serious change in their marketing strategy to be on top again, and the question is, are they capable of that?
    Last edited by BD; 05-03-2012 at 10:02.
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    Registered User N Spec's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Vance makes some really good points about Honda and Japan in general, so of course, the worries of Japan's mishaps carries across to the new NSX's development. I think that Honda has regained footing though and hopefully Sony and the rest of Japan can too. I am still waiting for a Korean video gaming console that will upset Sony and Nintendo

    As for the Viper, The original was quite unrefined. It's not hard to improve upon the original version. Yea, the new Viper is probably the best iteration so far (much nicer design), but it's still an unsophisticated brute, which in the right hands could yield some impressive results on the track. There is still nothing quite special about the Viper besides performance figures. If it is so special, then why don't you buy one? I mean it's definitely a fast car and pretty rare. Either way, it's a GTR and Corvette competitor and quite frankly, I would rather have the GTR if I had to choose between the three.

    The original NSX was so refined and special. It is hard to improve upon (besides the expected power output) or even match it in terms of development and philosophy. This is very apparent from all of the veteran owners' reactions. There are so many special little details that went into the development of the original NSX that may never get replicated again. Some say the MP4-12C is doing it, but that's a completely different type of car. I would not be so fast to pass judgement on the new NSX until real specs have been released.

    In fact, not trying to offend you, but I bet you are one of the many that has misconstrued the hybrid aspect of the powertrain because you saw some unflattering pics with some key points of AWD and Hybrid. Well if you read more, you would see that Honda is trying to revolutionize the industry again, not just bring another electric car with big horsepower and torque. In essence the new NSX is still a mid-engine, traverse mounted, rear-wheel driven V6 with of course more power and updated tech. It is already apparent that they are using the original chassis as a basis for design. Overall it looks better than the HSC and the HSV. What more do you want? Honda could have just updated the chassis and put a better V6 or V8 in, but they want to do more than just that. I applaud them.

    Nonetheless, I believe thanks to better marketing, the new NSX will be more famous and well known to the general public than the previous one. It also helps add more interest in the first gens, so you really can't complain too much.

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    NSXPrime Platinum Midnight_Raven's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostbuckeye View Post
    Has Honda asked anyone of us what we think?
    If I remember correctly it has been brought up from time to time about some members here having discussions with people within Honda about the next NSX. Honda has been talking to us for quite some time it's just not highly publicized that they have been having these discussions. Additionally a lot of prime members here are not their target group for the future NSX owners (Majority of us bought used NSXs not new{I'm in the used boat}) so there might be more people out there who have been talked to that we don't know about.
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    the new Dodge you speak of is Fiat aka Ferrari... in a parallel universe Honda went broke, Fiat bought them out, and reinvented the NSX as more of a Dino... which is fitting as the original brand was invented for engines lesser than 12 cylinders and now it could be used for engines with lesser than 8 cylinders. so the new NSX would be a reworked V6 and updated, but still very much the same car we all know and love. if only.
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    N-Spec,

    No offense taken and all very good points. Perhaps my rant came out more negative then is intended. It's just that I have hated to see the unused potental the Honda had in the 80s and 90s when they where the ones setting the standard for everyone else. I also understand that there have been external issues that have hampered their recent performance. However, their design and marketing problems are internal.

    My point is that they weren't listening to a significant portion of their customer base. And the jury is still out that they are listening now. Yes it appears that they are trying to change that with the shake up in leadership at various divisions and I am hopeful. As for the new NSX, I'm not at all bothered by the hybred powertrain as long as the car is still fun to drive. The new technology is a fact of life on the road as well as the track. I just hope that there is still some risk/reward in the cars performance and as a driver I still have some control over how it performs.

    My only disappointment is that I don't see any visual ties to our iconic NSX other than the name plate. Many on this blog are worried about HP and handling and some have used their excellent design talents to PhotoShop improvements to the design that reflect the visual character of our current NSX. Dodge realized that their original Viper had some distinguishing characteristics that identified the car and carried them over to the new more refined design. I would have liked to see Honda do the same.

    I, as many here, have been a loyal Honda customer for many years and there are few brands of cars that you can role up 300K miles before even considering replacement and at such little longterm cost. Will I buy the new NSX? Maybe after I see it face to face and I hope that it shakes up the automotive world as much as the original. Maybe that will be the NSX's distinguishing characteristic and that's cool too.

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    Charter Gold BD's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Well, many current NSXers flat out said they will not buy the new one because it is going to be made in Ohio. The funny thing is, I still have older Asian people saying stuff like "I will not buy a Sony TV that is not made in Japan." I guess these people will never buy another new Honda sports car or a Sony TV.

    Dodge viper is a cool car, in fact, regardless what generation it is, it will always be a kick ass car to own. Viper to Chrysler is like Cobra to Ford, the difference is Dodge is willing evolution cycle the car every so often. Unfortunately, that kills the collectable value of the car.

    Let's just get rich and buy them all.
    Last edited by BD; 05-02-2012 at 12:54.
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    Registered User N Spec's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostbuckeye View Post
    My point is that they weren't listening to a significant portion of their customer base. And the jury is still out that they are listening now. Yes it appears that they are trying to change that with the shake up in leadership at various divisions and I am hopeful. As for the new NSX, I'm not at all bothered by the hybred powertrain as long as the car is still fun to drive. The new technology is a fact of life on the road as well as the track. I just hope that there is still some risk/reward in the cars performance and as a driver I still have some control over how it performs.

    My only disappointment is that I don't see any visual ties to our iconic NSX other than the name plate. Many on this blog are worried about HP and handling and some have used their excellent design talents to PhotoShop improvements to the design that reflect the visual character of our current NSX. Dodge realized that their original Viper had some distinguishing characteristics that identified the car and carried them over to the new more refined design. I would have liked to see Honda do the same.

    I, as many here, have been a loyal Honda customer for many years and there are few brands of cars that you can role up 300K miles before even considering replacement and at such little longterm cost. Will I buy the new NSX? Maybe after I see it face to face and I hope that it shakes up the automotive world as much as the original. Maybe that will be the NSX's distinguishing characteristic and that's cool too.
    I would have agreed more with you if you brought up how Ford has changed direction recently instead of using Dodge as an example. The original Viper's looks were nothing special IMO. It looked like a Mazda Rx7 on steroids, and the Rx7 looks tremendously better. So again, not very hard to refine something that was actually quite mundane. I think the only fuss that is prevalent with the Viper that ridiculously sized V10.

    I do agree that Honda may not be listening, or perhaps they are listening but not reacting progressively. They do need to come up with a better design language that is more universal and less controversial for their lineup. If Ford can do it, so can Honda. The new Accord coupe concept is terrible. I think they would like to not be confused with Hyundai, Lexus, BMW, Audi, etc. with soft flowing curves for the body, but they need to find a unique direction that is not so funky. I think the answer lies with the correct form/shape FIRST and not so much with the detailing like edgy vs softer lines. I believe in the power of a refined and sleek shape that has the minimal amount of detailing to get the point across. Honda's language is knocking at this idea, but they keep getting the shape wrong. Honda is having trouble with the backside treatment for the NSX and HSC concepts from the side profile. This can be said for many of their lineup and not just the NSX/Flagship proposals.

    I generally like the detailing for the new concept, but I am more concerned about the overall shape. Thanks to new technology and manufacturing processes, the detailing treatment for the concept is more modern and exotic than the original NSX. With that said, the Concept should be shaped closer to the movie prop since it was literally built over an old NSX and that version does not appear as bulky. I think the key element you are missing with the new concept is the lack of a prominent B pillar that allows for a near 360 view. The new look adopts a hatchback-like profile so there is less emphasis on strong and long rear fenders that is key to the original. The front view of the Concept is a dead nod to the original NSX whereas the rear is taking a huge departure since Honda has hopped on the bulbous short-overhang bandwagon. However, I believe that Honda still has time to adjust the side profile to resemble the original NSX's sleek and unique silhouette.

    As for the new Hybrid system, I personally see aftermarket reprogramming of the sensitivity of the front electric motors or even the deactivation or removal of said motors for a purer experience. The possibilities are exciting and it would be sweet if you could have different settings for oversteer or understeer. So, the driver could in essence change handling characteristics on-the-fly. Electric upgrades can enhance and not hinder the experience. When LCD speedos showed up, the idea of custom skins for the interface already popped in my head for a more personalized experience with more precise readings. Either way, I do not think this SH-AWD will have the understeering characteristics of the typical AWD. I think that a high revving motor would be key to the fun factor because we already know that they are trying to keep the curb weight low. Let's hope Honda can deliver that which they normally have in the past as far as engineering is concerned.

    Speaking of Honda listening, they should start with the NSX Concept's tail end. Many have spoke about that area being an issue. Honda should start with one very subtle change to the tail end. Some may not agree with me, but the extension of the tail is instrumental to retaining the original's long blade-like stance. I strongly believe in this. Take a look at this illustration and tell me if even a few inches are not monumental:



    One subtle change would shake that silly R8 comparison and it would only affect the side view while still retaining that exotic rear end design.


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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    N-Spec,
    You are one talented man. I think your subtle extension is very good and would alleviate some of the Audi R8 look to the design. I have no idea how the change would affect aero or weight but it does look a little better.

    The reason I used the Viper is because that was the artcle I was reading that reminded me of my only reservation of the new NSX. Our NSX has a very storied history and the design has certain aspects that clearly identify the car ie. side intake vents and intigrated spoiler and as you have identified a stretched tale end. I see none of that in the new NSX to carry on the lineage. I'm not saying the new car should look like the original but there should be something that subtly reminds you of the original. I mean who of us didn't get a little goose bump we saw the our original pass and fade into the new NSX in the Grand Tourismo video.

    I agree that the Viper had much to improve. (By the way there is some thrill to it's raw horsepower and simplicity.) But Dodge is listening to those that know its weaknesses and is trying create a new Viper that has some of the visual characteristics that will identify it as a Viper. Though, IMO, in a much more sophisticated package. And as a car enthusiast, I like all cars for what are. Some are a little underpowered but handle extremely well (our NSX) and some have extreme horsepower and are a handfull(Viper, Shelby Colbra etc.). I see nothing visual in the new NSX that subtly ties it to the original thereby attaching it to its lineage.

    I too am excited by the new technology. Though it provides some serious engineering challenges it will also require some imagenative ideas to modify the design by our resident gearheads. And they will find a way to eek out more horsepower from those electric motors than the factory provides. (I can't wait to see the new NSX hellaflushed.)

    All of this is just my opinion that's all. And this is a great forum to air out your frustration from time to time. Great conversation.

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    Registered User N Spec's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostbuckeye View Post
    N-Spec,
    You are one talented man. I think your subtle extension is very good and would alleviate some of the Audi R8 look to the design. I have no idea how the change would affect aero or weight but it does look a little better.

    The reason I used the Viper is because that was the artcle I was reading that reminded me of my only reservation of the new NSX. Our NSX has a very storied history and the design has certain aspects that clearly identify the car ie. side intake vents and intigrated spoiler and as you have identified a stretched tale end. I see none of that in the new NSX to carry on the lineage. I'm not saying the new car should look like the original but there should be something that subtly reminds you of the original. I mean who of us didn't get a little goose bump we saw the our original pass and fade into the new NSX in the Grand Tourismo video.

    I agree that the Viper had much to improve. (By the way there is some thrill to it's raw horsepower and simplicity.) But Dodge is listening to those that know its weaknesses and is trying create a new Viper that has some of the visual characteristics that will identify it as a Viper. Though, IMO, in a much more sophisticated package. And as a car enthusiast, I like all cars for what are. Some are a little underpowered but handle extremely well (our NSX) and some have extreme horsepower and are a handfull(Viper, Shelby Colbra etc.). I see nothing visual in the new NSX that subtly ties it to the original thereby attaching it to its lineage.

    I too am excited by the new technology. Though it provides some serious engineering challenges it will also require some imagenative ideas to modify the design by our resident gearheads. And they will find a way to eek out more horsepower from those electric motors than the factory provides. (I can't wait to see the new NSX hellaflushed.)

    All of this is just my opinion that's all. And this is a great forum to air out your frustration from time to time. Great conversation.
    I don't think it would affect aero or even weight that much at all. It would mostly be the rear bumper being extended, so we are talking about plastic weight, an extra 5lbs maybe. There may be some need for more reinforcement for the extra few inches of open space, but the extra ~20 lbs or so is negligible. The rear bumper generally does not affect aero and in fact a longer car is generally better for stability.

    I still disagree with you about the visual ties between the two models. Honda IMO is trying to deliver a car that is overall better than its predecessor. This concept is the closest I have seen them approaching that from their many iterations. It's going to be more powerful, wider, better handling and have all of the modern tech. There are many homages paid to original and the underlying shape is still the NSX. My gripe is that they are slowly falling into the bulbous trend. Be like the 458 or Corvette, Honda, keep it slim/lean in this sea of bloated GTs. If they thinned up the front end of the concept, along with the rear extension, I think that it would truly solidify a NSX 2.0. The side profile has the most impact for any car's stance.

    I am with you about Honda listening to the customer base. It just seems that every other company did a 180 in the wake of the recession. Honda fumbled on the new Civic's interior and are just ruining the exteriors of their many cars. The move for the SI's new powerplant also was questionable. It just seemed that Honda was rolling from one mishap to another from the TL, to the Civic, and so on. In their defense, all of these cars were probably being developed at the very same time, but could not be debuted all at the same time, so it appeared that Honda was just running with their wild design scheme. It will take some time to address these issues, since it would have been more costly to go back to drawing board while delaying a scheduled redesign and trashing their flawed efforts. If Honda does not make a change in a better direction in the upcoming years, then they truly are not listening and will lose even more footing until they do.

    We all know Honda's engineering is top notch, but they truly need to find a good designer/designers and establish their visual language. As far as direction, they do need to return to their roots, but also be relevant in this day and age because it is not the 80s or 90s anymore when the competition was lazy. I see this in the new NSX Concept - it is a return to roots plus pushing new ground. Much better than the HSV or HSC. I hope they can accomplish and deliver given the extra complications for the new advance system. I have faith that Honda can if they stay focus and define clear targets.

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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Wow, it looks amazing with a few inches added to the rear end. Awesome work N Spec! I hope Honda is reading this thread.
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    N-Spec I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Good debate though and you are very talented as a graphic artist.

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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    N_Spec I think I heard you mentioned the rear end needed to be extended before, and I thought that wouldn't do anything for the look of the car. It turned out I was wrong, that little adjustment made a big difference. I still have to say there isn't much that I can see that reminds me of the original NSX. The longer body would help though.
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    The only thing I think the NSX concept needs tweaking with is the side scoop.

    I would prefer it if they made it similar to the old NSX. Plus it makes it even more exotic looking.

    I messed around a little with your picture N-spec to show what I mean. It's the middle one I edited.



    Avengers car has it and it looks good.


    N-Spec it would be cool if you modeled the avengers scoop on the coupe version to see how it would look like.
    Last edited by Midnight_Raven; 05-03-2012 at 07:41.
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lostbuckeye View Post
    N-Spec I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Good debate though and you are very talented as a graphic artist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nukem View Post
    N_Spec I think I heard you mentioned the rear end needed to be extended before, and I thought that wouldn't do anything for the look of the car. It turned out I was wrong, that little adjustment made a big difference. I still have to say there isn't much that I can see that reminds me of the original NSX. The longer body would help though.
    Indeed, agree to disagree. Visuals are always subjective. The long, balanced rear end is a most though IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_Raven View Post
    The only thing I think the NSX concept needs tweaking with is the side scoop.

    I would prefer it if they made it similar to the old NSX. Plus it makes it even more exotic looking.

    N-Spec it would be cool if you modeled the avengers scoop on the coupe version to see how it would look like.
    I agree. I did a photoshop from one of the first pics that surfaced and I came to the same conclusion that it looks better with a longer scoop that is more reminiscent of the original. I was just too lazy to show it again along with the the sharper nose If I had to choose between the two though, I would rather have a balanced rear end tho.

    I did not envision the scoop reaching that low, but it does look good that way. It really throws it back to the first gen even more. From what I understand the movie car is based on the concept, so the prop car came after. This should be a good thing if it is considered a progression, and the next iteration will use the previous findings.

    All Honda has to do is tweak some stuff around plus get that ass right, and we have a solid 2.0. I firmly believe that they will deliver a good looking, sculpted interior with good ergonomics, so I'm not as concerned about that aspect. Even the new TL has a beautiful interior despite the funky exterior design.

    I will have to explore a modified 3D model with tweaks...

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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    EDIT. Nevermind I see it now


    Quote Originally Posted by N Spec View Post
    Indeed, agree to disagree. Visuals are always subjective. The long, balanced rear end is a most though IMO.



    I agree. I did a photoshop from one of the first pics that surfaced and I came to the same conclusion that it looks better with a longer scoop that is more reminiscent of the original. I was just too lazy to show it again along with the the sharper nose If I had to choose between the two though, I would rather have a balanced rear end tho.

    I did not envision the scoop reaching that low, but it does look good that way. It really throws it back to the first gen even more. From what I understand the movie car is based on the concept, so the prop car came after. This should be a good thing if it is considered a progression, and the next iteration will use the previous findings.

    All Honda has to do is tweak some stuff around plus get that ass right, and we have a solid 2.0. I firmly believe that they will deliver a good looking, sculpted interior with good ergonomics, so I'm not as concerned about that aspect. Even the new TL has a beautiful interior despite the funky exterior design.

    I will have to explore a modified 3D model with tweaks...

    Did you ever get time to modify your models? When I was a kid I use to want to do visuals like what you did, never happened. Anyway have you thought about sending these to Honda? Who knows maybe it would happen. Don't know who in the chain you would send it to.
    Last edited by Nukem; 05-14-2012 at 17:45.
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    I just saw this post, and can confirm that Acura Canada is presenting an overview of the Concept to the NSX Club of Canada at Est Fest.

    Acura is looking for feedback from NSX owners, so if you have any comments or questions that you have, please let us know.

    Here is a link to the post...http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161155

    This your opportunity to voice your opinion.


    Bram
    President - NSX Club of Canada

  18. #18
    Registered User N Spec's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Quote Originally Posted by Nukem View Post
    Did you ever get time to modify your models? When I was a kid I use to want to do visuals like what you did, never happened. Anyway have you thought about sending these to Honda? Who knows maybe it would happen. Don't know who in the chain you would send it to.
    I have started, but I am not yet finished making all of the adjustments. I have thought about sending stuff to Honda, but I imagine it would just sit in a junk mail pile...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bram View Post
    I just saw this post, and can confirm that Acura Canada is presenting an overview of the Concept to the NSX Club of Canada at Est Fest.

    Acura is looking for feedback from NSX owners, so if you have any comments or questions that you have, please let us know.

    Here is a link to the post...http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161155

    This your opportunity to voice your opinion.


    Bram
    Yea please let Honda know our inputs. I will make a post in that thread too.

  19. #19
    Registered User WingZ's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Just saw the 2013 Viper this morning. Kinda cheap looking and that's surprising as it looks great in pics
    Quote:Originally Posted by TURBO2GO View Post
    I want that blue CGT. wow...
    Perry? You there Perry?
    DAVE WANTS A BLUE CAR!!!!

  20. #20
    Registered User N Spec's Avatar
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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    Quote Originally Posted by WingZ View Post
    Just saw the 2013 Viper this morning. Kinda cheap looking and that's surprising as it looks great in pics
    Excellent photography will do that

    Let's just keep it realistic here. We all know the caliber and build quality of Dodge, GM or perhaps American car companies in general. Yes, there has been a large improvements for domestic design in recent years, but the design sophistication and build quality still represent their pricing and planing unfortunately.

    I do not firmly believe in "you get what you pay for", as there are too many overpriced examples out there, but when you aim to offer a high performance car in the lower end of market pricing, there are always going to be some compromise.

    I never understood why anyone would pay $90K+ for a ~300 hp car, until I actually inspected it, then sat in and drove my first NSX. Next thing you know, I am paying ~half the new MSRP price for a 15-20 year old car! I could not do that for a Vette, Viper or even an earlier Ferrari

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    Re: About The Only Time I Wish Honda Was Like Dodge

    I don't like the looks of the Avenger. Too mixed up, with round shapes on top of angular shapes.

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