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KW Springs vs Swift Springs

Joined
9 May 2010
Messages
1,190
Location
Aotearoa New Zealand
I have purchased some KW V3's and love them they came with the 350lb/in front and rear. Mind you anything had to be better than the 21yr old originals with Eibachs springs on them.
I have been told to use this combo for a street car 'use 350-400 lb rear springs with 600-650 lb front springs'.
Although when i purchased i went with the standard recommended KW size so i had a starting point.
So after reading all the threads on spring sizes/weights and various comments about which springs maybe better has anyone changed from this KW spring to a set of Swifts and maybe in that size/weight.
What i want to know is if i was going for this sort of set up are Swift springs that much better than KW's and would this be the size to go for or because of the nature of the Swift design? a different size.
The car is street driven mostly but does see 6 to 10 hard out track days a year, Family and business do not allow for more than that yet.
It has all non compliance done and Dali track bars STMPO front brace and RSTB so shes very stiff but the ride is still good and shes lighter than stock.
Or should i just be happy with what i bring to the track now in other words is it really worth changing that much.
 
Idk about what would work best in your scenario in terms of rate, but I don't thnk there is any discernible difference in the actual spring brands. It's a spring, at a certain rate, I would think that a KW or a Swift or whatever else would feel exactly the same. I swapped my KW's for swifts but that was only because that is what Ravi sold when he was putting my VRH together.
 
Idk about what would work best in your scenario in terms of rate, but I don't thnk there is any discernible difference in the actual spring brands. It's a spring, at a certain rate, I would think that a KW or a Swift or whatever else would feel exactly the same. I swapped my KW's for swifts but that was only because that is what Ravi sold when he was putting my VRH together.
There is indeed a huge difference between brands. A few things to note around spring rate consistency..

1. Matched set - Swift sells their springs as a matched set. Meaning they actually measure the spring rate of each spring and match them together. I'd guess KW does the same but i've never seen any documentation to support. Tein, BCR, Eibach, and other brands... hmmmmm?

2. Spring rate upon compression - The spring rate upon compression of any given spring can change. As you compress a spring it tends to increase in rate. Swifts are known to be some of the most consistent which means the variance of rate upon initial compression and full compression is low.

3. Weight - Diameter and number of coils windings. Swifts are some of the lightest with the least amount of winds. I'll bet money, all things being equal, a Swift spring is lighter than the same KW equivalent. (Do you want Swifts now Dave? LOL)

Again, i'd love to see KWs comparisons. I don't doubt they make good springs but great springs? I don't know about great but show me some data!
 
Hmmm.... Interesting but some of that sounds like marketing hype to me. Still, I don't know. I'm not an expert on this. I think Ryu is right though my swifts are lighter than my KW's. But they aren't the same exact rate so it's not a fair comparison. Ryu, if you notice I already said I have swifts.
 
Ryu the spring connesiuer... LOL... but any cheap damper is fine. LOLOL
 
I would almost put money on the fact that KW doesn't manufacture their own springs. I'm guessing Eibach does and powdercoats them yellow. :)

And Dave I agree, that's a lot of marking bs for something that is so basic. Really all you have to differentiate your product is quality control, cost and a great marketing/PR dept. :cool:

Try and decipher this marketing BS....


"Hyperco's neverending pursuit of Performance has lead to yet another breakthrough in Conventional Motorsports spring design -- the "Dynamic Travel Response" enhancement!

Our engineers analyzed the dynamic characteristics that are essential to Conventional Spring performance and utilized this data to develop the Dynamic Travel Response design concept. Our conventional springs are engineered to exceed the dynamic performance requirements for travel and rate linearity placed on them in the race car. Another result of the DTR concept is a significant reduction in the physical weight of each spring. As spring travel and total load requirements are part of the Dynamic Travel design criteria, Hyperco was able to reduce the weight and improve the performance of our entire Conventional Spring line without compromising consistency and durability.

The results are in...Hyperco's Dynamic Travel Response enhancement is a winner at every level (dirt & pavement)."

.

OK...... so they bounce up an down. Yep, them are springs.
 
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Matching sets sounds a bit extreme too. How far off can they be? And does it make any difference on a 3000 pound car? If you are way off on different sets you have a manufacturing issue. I'd bet they are probably very consistent, and matching a set sounds like marketing.
 
Ah yes... Its all marketing. Why do I even bother

Unsubscribed..........

Ryu, "why do I bother" implies you know something and everyone else is kind of dumb or stupid. If you disagree with a premise, like springs should be matched because of so and so, then just say why and give some reasons. Everytime a suspension discussion comes up you do this same thing where you say "why do I bother" or "I'm not going to get into that discussion" or whatever to whoever has posted and disagreed with you. I mean it's the last that I'll bring this up, you can do what you want, but the point of a forum is to discuss things. Not Jim nor I nor the OP, no one has been rude to you.
 
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Ryu, "why do I bother" implies you know something and everyone else is kind of dumb or stupid. If you disagree with a premise, like springs should be matched because of so and so, then just say why and give some reasons. Everytime a suspension discussion comes up you do this same thing where you say "why do I bother" or "I'm not going to get into that discussion" or whatever to whoever has posted and disagreed with you. I mean it's the last that I'll bring this up, you can do what you want, but the point of a forum is to discuss things. Not Jim nor I nor the OP, no one has been rude to you.
Making you feel dumb or stupid was definitely not my intent. I'm simply tired of trying to provide answers to questions some of these folks have. It's usually the same questions and it's usually the same answers. Lord knows i've been wrong many times but an equally retarded response like "it's marketing bs" is just a waste of spit or in this case a waste of keystrokes.

I'm just tired of it all. I suppose us handful of passionate nsxprime members get the same way every so often. At least my NSX is running great now so see you guys on the road/track! I'm outs
 
6 years and over 10K posts, I've never seen this spring matching thing brought up. And I'm on here a lot. Saying it's marketing BS is not retarded, it's a legitimate response if that is in fact what someone feels like it is. None of us are stupid here, whether it's you or I or Jim we've been around the block and sort of notice these things. If you don't think that it's marketing and it's legit, you could explain why. If you don't feel like doing so, that's another thing and certainly your choice.

All I'm saying is there is no need to think someone is being childish or retarded or dumb because their reply is they feel it's marketing. Jim is a guy with a lot of track experience, more than many of us, and a good contributor here. I've certainly put in my share of contribution into this forum. It's not like you are talking to two teenagers on the civic forums. Scammy posted a legit thread, and talking about brand differences of springs, if any, would be helpful to him. So if you know something we don't and take the time to explain it, and it turns out to enlighten everybody, then it's worth a few minutes of time. I would hope...

If I did not respect you as a member here, I wouldn't have even bothered writing this post.
 
Besides... Jim just quit smoking so cut him some slack... LOL
 
Damn look what happens when you ask a question then leave your computor alone for a couple of days, calm down boys.
Ok i am not after spring rates or which coilover is better and at what settings i have a good idea of what i want and have read other threads which you guys have contributed to so am good to go there.
What i was curious about was is there any discernable difference between the two spring brands from the point of view of someone who may have tried both its not a major but as i am committed to getting another set for doing some track work over what i have now getting the better set first up makes sense.
I have done this a lot with my dirt bikes over the years so some brands i would swear by others do the job but might not have that feel is this a case of that or just marketing BS, which is why i asked if someone had actually tried the two.
Turbo you are obviously passionate about the NSX and there aint nothing wrong with that whether everyone agrees with you or not on your posts doesnt really matter here.
Ryu you obviously care about getting the facts straight and not wasting time i get that too.
Passionate people who care are why most of us are here.
I just wondered if there was anyone out there that had tried both and what they thought before i spent more money on these cars we all spend too much time on now.
 
I've been running the KW standard-issue 343# springs on my car on road and track for a couple of years now. I autocross the car, track it, and drive it a few thousand miles in between. I can honestly say I haven't really felt that the car has been under-sprung. I can drive 300 miles to the track and arrive with my spine intact. With some swaybars, body roll is pretty minimal, and between the sways, adjustments to the damping, and tire pressure, I've been able to get the car pretty neutral with a hint of initial understeer at high speed.

That said, if I went with a stiffer front spring, I might gain some braking performance by making the rear brakes to a little more work (less weight shift forward under heavy braking). The ABS was engaging pretty early last time I was at the track (running 215F/255R tires), the fronts would chirp pretty early, and I never felt the rears do anything. It's safe that way, but I think there is something to be had before it even gets close to over-using the rears.....and a spring bias change wouldn't make THAT big of a difference.

Really though, if you aren't constantly on a track, IMO the 343# springs are about perfect for street and occasional spirited driving. Plus, in theory, the dampers will last longer with less spring to control.

Not trying to talk you out of experimenting, but if you were debating spending the money vs. not....
 
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Making you feel dumb or stupid was definitely not my intent. I'm simply tired of trying to provide answers to questions some of these folks have. It's usually the same questions and it's usually the same answers. Lord knows i've been wrong many times but an equally retarded response like "it's marketing bs" is just a waste of spit or in this case a waste of keystrokes.

I'm just tired of it all. I suppose us handful of passionate nsxprime members get the same way every so often. At least my NSX is running great now so see you guys on the road/track! I'm outs

I agree totally with your response.I used to try to help guys out but got nothing but resistance from KIA's in this forum. Conventional teaching has undermined the value of the process of learning from experience. I am going to give credit to Billy, FXMD,SOS,Cody, and Larry B. These are passionate NSX afficionado's that manage to ignore the booksmart ,non-experienced ones on this forum,and still make very intelligent posts. I also really appreciate STMPO's postings,and enjoy his sarcasm, as he is very intelligent and has a hard time with ignorance on this forum. There may be others that I have not mentioned and I apologize for that, now I just check out the forums and enjoy reading the posts. Nuff said. Make it a great day.
 
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From KW...

Jim,

Our springs are on average 25% lighter than the competition. They are also capable of 20% more spring travel under load and have 18% higher theoretical max spring strength due the materials used. That being said we have not done a head to head comparison with Swift that I am aware of.

For most street applications the difference is something I really doubt the average consumer would notice. Always make sure to order the proper height spring so that the ride height and damper travel aren't adversely affected.


If you would like to do a heads up comparison I can send you a spring to test on.

Best Regards,

Jorge Martinez
Technical Advisor
 
I have a set of KW v3s on my NSX and my S2000. My S2000 became my main track car adn had 265 tires front and rear. The v3s came with 9kg springs all around on my s2000. I contacted KW and they let me know what spring rate the valving could handle. I ended up purchasing a set of 13kg springs from them for a very reasonable price. I was very happy with the results on the track.
 
I agree totally with your response.I used to try to help guys out but got nothing but resistance from KIA's in this forum. Conventional teaching has undermined the value of the process of learning from experience. I am going to give credit to Billy, FXMD,SOS,Cody, and Larry B. These are passionate NSX afficionado's that manage to ignore the booksmart ,non-experienced ones on this forum,and still make very intelligent posts. I also really appreciate STMPO's postings,and enjoy his sarcasm, as he is very intelligent and has a hard time with ignorance on this forum. There may be others that I have not mentioned and I apologize for that, now I just check out the forums and enjoy reading the posts. Nuff said. Make it a great day.
Some very knowledgable people being quoted, since you have quoted Billy here and i also agree (who wouldnt)the guy knows whats hes talking about and i thought Ross makes so much sense when he speaks his mind and i have to laugh at what he says and if hes not on here again thats a shame, anyway back on topic you mentioned Billy and here is a post of Billy's from 2009 http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124373 mentioning Swift springs packages which is one of the reasons i asked if anyone had tried the two types, all i asked was if anyone had tried could they tell if there was any noticable difference? it is not a big deal but yes i am curious because i am going to experiment a little and try some stiffer springs as i mentioned in the first post i am pretty happy with what i have and i also agree with R13 the car is great now but could it be better on the odd occasion that i want to experiment (we all do it you know, experiment, thats why we're here), you mentioned your ABS system is it the old or newer version one of the reasons i ask is i have put the newer lighter one in my car and it has the lightweight front bumper beam and a 2kg Shorei lightweight battery so the car is waaay lighter in the front and has the undertray and 'r' scoop hood on so it will handle differently so getting the best spring (if there is such a thing) for the mods i thought might be a relevant question so has anyone tried the two.
Coz thanks for the info from KW.
Guys there is another thread on here for spings sizes/weights this is not about that there is plenty of info out there now on that.
We're only talking $400 maybe but putting it in the right direction first up is a valid question, it might make no difference at all and so be it but i thought it was worthwhile asking.
 
... i also agree with R13 the car is great now but could it be better on the odd occasion that i want to experiment (we all do it you know, experiment, thats why we're here), you mentioned your ABS system is it the old or newer version one of the reasons i ask is i have put the newer lighter one in my car...

I actually do have the 01+ spec ABS system vs. the old one. However, I do have a standard-issue brick of a battery and the steel bumper.

I tend to experiment a little differently than most. I did my reading and tried to buy smart on the actual parts, then I did more reading and got some baseline damper settings for the KWs that Billy dropped at some point, got the car aligned based on some common wisdom from some of the more experienced track junkies, and some adjustable sway bars.

I take the approach of "it's probably me" first. Once I get to a point where I feel I can't or shouldn't have to change my driving to get around a particular shortcoming, then I'll change something on the car. I fought understeer for about a dozen autocrosses and a couple of track days fiddling with tire pressures before I made a slight swaybar change. Having done that, it was clearly the right decision....but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't tried to drive around it first and eliminated tire pressure as a variable.
 
R13 i hear ya, and i am planning on doing that and have done some of it already and the car is going great on the track when it gets there.
I think i may have too much sway on the rear and reading others that could be true. So i will put my old rear one back and have a play.
I have those damper settings from Billy and they are great advice i run his street recommendations for around town and it works as well as his track settings.
I am waiting on some new 215 Falkens for the fronts before i get out again and play with tyre pressures its also winter here and wet so havent bothered going to the track but Spring is here next week.....
However all this is fine tuning of something that is not broken so i didnt want to turn the question into whats best what should i run etc etc.
But this is the thing even Billy suggested a Swift spring package on that thread as an option so are they better/smoother than KW? I thought someone might have tried both and would offer an opinion, maybe its got a little carried away with just a curiousity question. See the thing is i would like to try the 600 up front and see for myself, if i do that is one spring better than the other? and i do appreciate everyones input regardless. So enough said.
Cheers
 
I have been using swift springs at 10kg/mm up front and 8 at the rear and they feel great. I recommend the swifts fwiw.
 
I have searched all around for the specs on KW V3 springs and need some help. I am wanting to buy Swift replacements for my stock 343lb/6.12k springs.

The KW manual says they are:
f 60x170mm or 2.36x6.7"
r 60x200mm or 2.36x7.9"

Can anyone confirm what length springs I need? And 60mm ID is correct?

Thanks. [emoji3]
 
I have searched all around for the specs on KW V3 springs and need some help. I am wanting to buy Swift replacements for my stock 343lb/6.12k springs.

The KW manual says they are:
f 60x170mm or 2.36x6.7"
r 60x200mm or 2.36x7.9"

Can anyone confirm what length springs I need? And 60mm ID is correct?

Thanks. [emoji3]


I bought 10k/8k swift springs last year and made the mistake of buying the 170mm front spring. This is not correct - you'll need the 152mm front and 203 mm rear. ID is 60mm.
Part numbers for 10k/8k are

SWF.Z60-152-100 Swift Coilover Spring ID:60mm x Length:152mm x Rate:10kgf/mm
SWF.Z60-203-080 Swift Coilover Spring ID:60mm x Length:203mm x Rate:8kgf/mm
 
A few things:

I have tried both swift and the KW's and even swapped between them at the track for back to back testing. (covered somewhere here on prime) With my car and set up I was constantly faster and preferred the higher rates of my Swift set up. 12/10kg if i remember correctly. The rates you want to go with depend on the Hz required to dampen the unsprung mass. Then take into account the tire compound that you plan on running. My numbers were based on OEM calipers, my Regamaster Evo wheels and Nt01 R-comps. My apples may be your oranges.

You don't want to overspring the KW's. Again, memory is telling me the valving can only handle 10kg above what they ship with. I stayed within that and still blew a shock. Warranty was a bitch but they eventually handled it even though I had to pay for shipping both ways.

Yes, spring manufacturing and manufactures make a difference. Its not all marketing. I personally know of a specific instance where a big name race shock company switch from one brand of spring to another after the first was caused them to start a re engineer process of the shock itself.. until they found out what the real problem was. For 90% of people its not an issue. But to Regans point the people that have high dollar set ups, are chasing 10th's, or just care to look deeper all of that stuff indeed matters.
 
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