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How do you drive?

Which do you do when driving your NSX.

  • I heel and toe rev match

    Votes: 70 43.8%

  • I don't heel and toe but I rev match if my foot is free (not going into a turn)

    Votes: 61 38.1%

  • I double clutch on upshifts

    Votes: 9 5.6%

  • I skip shift meaning I will rev out the motor in one gesr and skip a gear at times.

    Votes: 32 20.0%

  • I don't do any of the above.

    Votes: 33 20.6%
  • Total voters
    160
Here is a great explanation given by olyar15 in a past post:


Olyar15 said:
The basic components of a transmission is an input shaft and an output shaft. A number of gears are "attached" to the input shaft, so that when the input shaft turns, it turns all the gears at once, but the gears rotate at different speeds. These gears freewheel around the output shaft. The input shaft is connected to the engine via the clutch. The output shaft is connected to the road via the driveshaft, differential, and wheels.

The gear lever allows one particular gear to be locked onto the output shaft (or none of the gears, if the gear lever is in neutral). The other gears are still turning because they are attached to the input shaft, but simply freewheeling around the output shaft. It is during the act of selecting a gear that the synchros come into play. They help synchronize the rotational speed of a particular gear on the input shaft to the rotational speed of the output shaft. How they work is basically by use of friction. Hence, the greater the difference in rotational speed, the greater the amount of friction on the synchros and therefore the greater the wear.

When the clutch is engaged (clutch pedal not pushed in) and the gear lever "in gear", there is a direct mechanical connection between the engine and the road. Every part of the drivetrain is synchronized to turn at a particular speed, depending on the gear and road speed. There is no way for any one component to be out of synch unless something either breaks (ouch!) or something slips (eg. clutch or tires).

When the clutch is disengaged (clutch pedal pushed in) but the transmission still in gear, then the input shaft is disconnected from the engine but still connected to the output shaft. Therefore the input shaft will still turn at the same proportional speed as the output shaft, taking into account the particular ratio of the selected gear.

When the clutch is engaged and the transmission is in neutral, the input shaft will rotate at the same speed as the engine. The output shaft will turn at whatever speed the tires are turning.

When the clutch is disengaged and the transmission is in neutral, there is nothing that is turning the input shaft and it will eventually stop rotating because of the internal friction within the transmission.

So what does all this have to do with the TSB, double-clutching, synchro wear, etc.? Let's take a look at what happens during a typical shift, say from 1st to 2nd. You are accelerating in 1st gear. The engine speed, input shaft speed, and output shaft speed are all synchronized. So you push in the clutch and let off the accelerator. Engine speed drops, but input shaft speed is still the same as output shaft because the transmission is still in gear. You shift out of 1st, pass into neutral, and into 2nd. It is in that brief moment that the input shaft is decoupled with the output shaft, allowing it to start slowing down. Of course you won't know how much it has slowed down because the clutch is disengaged and therefore the input shaft is not controlled by the engine speed. Depending on how quickly you shift, the input shaft may have slowed enough so that by the time you select 2nd gear, the input and output speeds are pretty similar. Otherwise it is the job of the synchro to make sure they match. Again, the greater the speed difference, the greater the wear and tear on the synchro. However, since the difference in gear ratios between 1st and 2nd is pretty small, even if you shift as fast as you can, the wear on the synchros isn't too bad. Once you re-engage the clutch, the engine will be re-connected to the input shaft and the speeds of all the components synchronized.

Now, when you shift from, say 1st to 4th, the difference in rotational speeds is greater, and therefore the syncros face a greater load and more wear when it slows down the input shaft in order to engage 4th gear. The load on the synchros can be lessened by giving the input shaft more time to slow down. But the problem is, how much time is enough? Remember, if you have the clutch disengaged, the ENGINE SPEED IS IRRELEVANT. The obvious solution, then, is to re-engage the clutch when the gear lever is in neutral. Now you can control the input shaft speed.

The conclusions one can draw from this:

If you do a "normal" shift (push in clutch pedal, select new gear, release clutch pedal), then the synchros will experience more wear when skip-shifting (eg. from 1st to 3rd or 4th) because the input shaft has to alter its speed more than if you go through the gears sequentially.

Rev-matching (ie. matching engine speed to gear speed) will not help the synchros if you do so with the clutch disengaged. It will only help the smoothness of clutch re-engagement.

Rev-matching will help if you do it with the clutch engaged, while transmission is in neutral. Thus, double-clutching will help reduce wear on synchros.

Therefore, if you do want to skip-shift and want to minimize wear on the synchros, you can double clutch on the upshift. Push in the clutch pedal, shift to neutral then let out clutch pedal, let engine revs fall to an appropriate range, then push in clutch and select the new gear.

Blipping the throttle on downshifts will also not help the synchros unless you double-clutch, but it will help lessen any driveline shock when re-engaging the clutch.
Click to expand...
 
i am sure we all understand the theory behind, but that's still just paper talk. all these talk on wear on synchros, sure, but what does that translate to? reality talk is always the key. if in reality the extra wear is not translating to synchros failure in say 3 years, then it's pretty much a normal tear and wear issue to me.

and on the other hand the way it is now, you are making it sound like people should not do heel-toe at all because that's just rev-matching with braking.

i have driven quite a few manual cars and i know a lot of people with manual cars. all kind of drivers and driving habits. fact is, over the years i haven't really heard anyone with synchros problem at all. doing stupid things and killing the tranny, flywheel, etc... yes, but not on syncrhos. maybe i am just lucky, however if caring about synchros wear becomes that big of a deal to jeopardize the rest of the driving part, i think that start to defeat part of the driving experience.

please understand i am not trying to say we should forget about syncrhos wear or do stuff like skip up-shift, but putting that much focus on babying the synchros at the cost of taking driving experience for some, that's debatable
 
1) I never said you shouldn't heel and toe, I believe it's a great habit.

2) I understand your personal experiences may be affecting your perception, but that doesn't mean that is the general percentage of what actually happens to transmissions and synchros. Your personal sample is way too small. Obviously there are enough issues that caused Acura to send out a TSB. Skip shifting increases wear on the synchos. This is fact. How much wear depends on many factors as explained in olyar's post above, including the speed with which you shift.

3) I am not being an alarmist, I am presenting fact. 22 people here so far have admitted to skip shifting, and a few have posted saying they match revs thinking it helps the synchros when it doesn't help the synchros at all. It is beneficial to know and understand the facts. What you do after is your choice.

4) I agree with you that the driving experience is important, and that taking away from it for what may be a minor amount of wear may not be worth it. But "minor" is a matter of perspective. Also, I personally feel that proper driving, high performance driving, proper heel and toe'ing, rev matching, double clutching, all ADD to the driving experience not take away from it. If you want to leisurely drive and not do those things, that's fine but you should also row through your gears sequentially and change slowly. If you are going to drive hard, then I think doing these things only add to your driving experience.
 
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TURBO2GO said:
1) I never said you shouldn't heel and toe, I believe it's a great habit.

2) I understand your personal experiences may be affecting your perception, but that doesn't mean that is the general percentage of what actually happens to transmissions and synchros. Your personal sample is way too small. Obviously there are enough issues that caused Acura to send out a TSB. Skip shifting increases wear on the synchos. This is fact. How much wear depends on many factors as explained in olyar's post above, including the speed with which you shift.

3) I am not being an alarmist, I am presenting fact. 22 people here so far have admitted to skip shifting, and a few have posted saying they match revs thinking it helps the synchros when it doesn't help the synchros at all. It is beneficial to know and understand the facts. What you do after is your choice.

4) I agree with you that the driving experience is important, and that taking away from it for what may be a minor amount of wear may not be worth it. But "minor" is a matter of perspective. Also, I personally feel that proper driving, high performance driving, proper heel and toe'ing, rev matching, double clutching, all ADD to the driving experience not take away from it. If you want to leisurely drive and not do those things, that's fine but you should also row through your gears sequentially and change slowly. If you are going to drive hard, then I think doing these things only add to your driving experience.
Click to expand...

Moral of the story drive it how you want to and when and if it breaks .................................fix it . Enjoy the experience
 
I shift up at 3000-3500 RPM and never skip gears. When I do downshift I always rev match. I don't heal toe since I drive around time like a grandma.
 
haveblue said:
Would say, downshifting from 4th to 2nd without going to third be considered skip shifting then?
Click to expand...

I asked this very question and the answer was yes. You want to ideally double clutch on a skip shift down. The guy on this video heel and toes with the side of his foot exactly like I do. He also does a double declutch going down when he starts to speed up on the track. Notice how fast it can be done. This is all very good stuff any NSX driver should master. It's a lot of fun too!! Watch the number of times his left foot moves on the downshift.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NWuM3NHrqbA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Maybe you should start another poll asking how many NSX owners have synchro problems or had to replace their synchros.................

If there are a lot of problems then maybe you're onto something..........if only a few have problems well then.................
 
Senna + NSX-R ... great footage, and footwork, although not sure his shoe style will catch on

great corner/handwork too, although at 1:25 - 1:30 ... oversteer+understeer+oversteer = apex missed ! :eek:

BTW my 91 NA1 had worn synchros when I purchased and it only had around 60,000 miles then. Perhaps it was driven with lots of skip shifting before I owned it. In all my years of driving and so many cars I've lost count I've never had a gearbox problem in any car. I got my first license in 1969(!) and in the early days many were old bombs.

I've since replaced the gearbox in the NSX, and it's such a pleasure to drive now, and of course I'm looking after it ...
 
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Dhalsim said:
Maybe you should start another poll asking how many NSX owners have synchro problems or had to replace their synchros.................

If there are a lot of problems then maybe you're onto something..........if only a few have problems well then.................
Click to expand...

Why? Im not trying to be the forum mechanic or convince anyone of anything. I posted the poll because I was curious about the driving habits of most guys. Then it turned into a whole synchro issue which to me isn't one at all. You want synchros to wear less, listen to Acura and don't skip shift. You wanna skip shift, then double clutch. You don't care, don't do any of it.

The value of this thread is in information... If i know of something good or bad, its good to share the info.

I follow acuras advice and I no longer skip shift. When I do, I double clutch. I practice double clutching and heel and toe because they are a more professional way of driving. If someone doesn't believe in any of it, I don't have a problem with it.
 
... a car like an NSX deserves to be driven properly, and big aspect is gearbox etiquette which you have brought to the fore with this thread TURBO2GO, good stuff
 
TURBO2GO said:
Why? Im not trying to be the forum mechanic or convince anyone of anything. I posted the poll because I was curious about the driving habits of most guys. Then it turned into a whole synchro issue which to me isn't one at all. You want synchros to wear less, listen to Acura and don't skip shift. You wanna skip shift, then double clutch. You don't care, don't do any of it.

The value of this thread is in information... If i know of something good or bad, its good to share the info.

I follow acuras advice and I no longer skip shift. When I do, I double clutch. I practice double clutching and heel and toe because they are a more professional way of driving. If someone doesn't believe in any of it, I don't have a problem with it.
Click to expand...

Why? Isn't it obvious why? Because clearly you like to create threads with polls. :tongue:
 
can someone tell me in plain talk... what is heel & toe?

i drive like a normal person... right foot on gas, left foot on brake
 
I think these habits came from my first car, a 1969 triumph spitfire
that did not come with a first gear syncro.

I only go into first at a dead stop.
Sometimes skip second under gentle/normal acceleration ["thinking" I am being good to the trans].
Always rev match with a blip on the way down.
I avoid downshifting into second on regular driving [unless the corner really calls for it].
Am just learning heel-toe now at track events.
I double clutch about 25% of the time going up the gears.
 
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TURBO2GO said:
Still I don't think the NSX is setup that well from the factory. Drive a miata and you will see how easy it is and just how well it is set up.
Click to expand...

Agreed, it takes a pretty awkward tilt of my foot to pull off the heel-toe. Definitely not as organic as it felt in my MR2. However with my aftermarket pedal set it is much easier. I forget the name, Autovation or something, got em from SOS.
 
EAC said:
can someone tell me in plain talk... what is heel & toe?

i drive like a normal person... right foot on gas, left foot on brake
Click to expand...

It's rev matching the engine to the downshifted gear while decelerating. Because your left foot is on the clutch pedal and your right foot is on the brake, something still needs to blip the throttle to bring revs up to match the lower gear. That thing is generally the heel of the right foot whose toes are still holding down the brake. The right foot is turned counter clockwise and the heel just snaps the throttle.

This is critical on the track as you are often slowing down hard and turning going into a corner. If you are not rev matched, as you release the clutch the RPMs have to jump way up because you are now in a lower gear. As the clutch is released, that difference in RPM is like the rear wheels braking. Since you are already at the limits of traction on your tires, that extra braking that comes on suddenly unsettles the car mid corner. When a novice is driving, you can often hear a little tire "chirp" as they let off the clutch. The engine is at low RPM, the gear needs to see a high RPM. The clutch is let out causing it to take up the slack. The rear brakes because of this. Car wiggles. If you're going fast enough, you can unsettle it enough to spin out. You can see the blips with the right foot on the videos.

Is that clear enough?
 
dlynes said:
how about only rev matching
Click to expand...

You mean an explanation?

When you are in say... third, at 4000 RPM's, and you downshift to second, your engine RPM and your transmission RPM's will not be "matched" as they were when you were already in gear. What happens when you are crusing in 4, press in the clutch, and go to 3? Engine RPM's go up, right? That "slack" is taken up by the clutch as you let off the pedal. You can feel the car jerk a little and slow.

Rev matching is sorta Pre-loading the engine so the difference in RPM is little to nothing. If in 4.... Instead of just going to 3 and letting off the clutch you press in the clutch, give the gas pedal a quick tap to bring the revs up a few hundred RPM, when you release the clutch the engine is more "matched" to the lower gear you just selected. So there is no jerkiness and the shift is very smooth.

From the outside a normal downshift sounds like "waaaaaaa", whereas a rev matched downshift goes "wa-waaaaa"... That first quick "wa" is the throttle blip to bring revs up to match the lower gear.

Not only is this a smoother shift but it saves on your clutch.
 
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TURBO2GO said:
I blip with the right side of my foot. I rotate on the vertical axis...
Click to expand...

Sounds very scary to brake that hard (at a track) with only 1/3 of the ball of your foot on the brake pedal (and at an angle other than perpendicular to force of braking). I would think it likely your foot would slip off the brake.

Heel-toe in the NSX is easier than any other car I've driven, partly because the brakes require some effort (I think it would be hard in something with very-sensitive brakes) and partly because of good pedal layout. Put the ball of your foot on the brake, press it (so far just like normal braking), rotate your foot so your heel lines up with some part of the gas pedal (bottom for me) and dip your heel to blip (keeping pressure on the brake same/appropriate).
 
latzke said:
Sounds very scary to brake that hard (at a track) with only 1/3 of the ball of your foot on the brake pedal (and at an angle other than perpendicular to force of braking). I would think it likely your foot would slip off the brake.

Heel-toe in the NSX is easier than any other car I've driven, partly because the brakes require some effort (I think it would be hard in something with very-sensitive brakes) and partly because of good pedal layout. Put the ball of your foot on the brake, press it (so far just like normal braking), rotate your foot so your heel lines up with some part of the gas pedal (bottom for me) and dip your heel to blip (keeping pressure on the brake same/appropriate).
Click to expand...

I physically cannot do that. My foot is too big.

There is nothing wrong with using the side of your foot to blip. I have seen many pro drivers do this. It doesn't affect the pressure I have on the brake at all. Watch Senna's video closely, he is doing the same in the loafers.
 
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I can't believe only 6% of people double clutch.

My car goes into gear Soooooo smooth after a double clutch. Guys, try practicing and doing this. Especially you skip shifters!!!
 
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TURBO2GO said:
I physically cannot do that. My foot is too big.

There is nothing wrong with using the side of your foot to blip. I have seen many pro drivers do this. It doesn't affect the pressure I have on the brake at all. Watch Senna's video closely, he is doing the same in the loafers.
Click to expand...

You like a size 16?

Senna is doing a bit of a hybrid...2/3rds heel-toe + 1/3 what you describe. Keeps most of the ball of his foot on the brake most of the time...but does rock sideways along with the heel-toe.
 
is it bad to use the engine to slow down? Not hard but to just to decelerate? Or to leave it in first gear and let it pull you up a hill at low rpm? on my commute home I have to go up a hill which is stop & go and its 1-5mph which is very difficult w/o having to use the clutch too much. The idea being is to not stop moving if at all possible. :confused:
 

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