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How do you drive?

Which do you do when driving your NSX.

  • I heel and toe rev match

    Votes: 70 43.8%
  • I don't heel and toe but I rev match if my foot is free (not going into a turn)

    Votes: 61 38.1%
  • I double clutch on upshifts

    Votes: 9 5.6%
  • I skip shift meaning I will rev out the motor in one gesr and skip a gear at times.

    Votes: 32 20.0%
  • I don't do any of the above.

    Votes: 33 20.6%

  • Total voters
    160
I heel toe a lot. But it's usually when I'm braking hard for a turn. It's more of a timing thing with me. On the track I'm braking hard and heel toeing as I'm going through the gears. On the street it feels awkward if I'm braking slowly. It's like swinging at a change up after a bunch of fastballs.

I find myself heel toeing a lot n the NSX because a) it's good practice and b) blipping the throttle in this car sounds awesome.
 
is it bad to use the engine to slow down? Not hard but to just to decelerate? Or to leave it in first gear and let it pull you up a hill at low rpm? on my commute home I have to go up a hill which is stop & go and its 1-5mph which is very difficult w/o having to use the clutch too much. The idea being is to not stop moving if at all possible. :confused:

No, IMO it isn't bad at all, I did explain in another thread, engine braking without load has a significant cooling effect on the motor. As was explained to me by a race car engine builder, what happens is that the radiator sees air at speed, the water pump works at speed, oil pump works at speed, and any oil or trans coolers also work at speed. Yet there is no high pressure combustion happening needed for acceleration, to the engine RAPIDLY expells heat. You can actually see this easily with an EGT guage or various engine temp gauges, they drop rapidly during engine braking. So if anything, this is good for the motor, not bad. The fact that it saves brake pads is a bonus, plus it keeps you in the right gear all the time and if you rev match the wear on the clutch is absolutely minimal. It is more important to save your synchros than to save your clutch so downshifting gear by gear and always being in the right gear is preferable. If you are coming to a full stop from speed, then either don't row through your gears as you slow with the clutch pedal pushed in, or double clutch and slow your shaft speed before doing so (rowing down without letting off the clutch for each gear).
 
is it bad to use the engine to slow down? Not hard but to just to decelerate?

I would avoid using the engine deliberately as a means to slow down...it is a very expensive brake. Use cheap pads/rotors instead. On the street it is reasonable, when coming to a stop, to shift to neutral. No need to run through gears - it only adds wear to your synchros and clutch with nothing gained. If I had (on the street) just accelerated and were at high RPMs, I would generally shift to the next gear before slowing (unless slowing to a stop, then neutral would be the place to be).

On the track leave it in gear as you brake (i.e. don't shift to neutral or leave clutch disengaged)...downshifting as necessary for proper gear selection.

Or to leave it in first gear and let it pull you up a hill at low rpm? on my commute home I have to go up a hill which is stop & go and its 1-5mph which is very difficult w/o having to use the clutch too much. The idea being is to not stop moving if at all possible.

This is fine.
 
Engine braking isn't any different than the engine revving to accelerate other than the cooling effect I mentioned. If you have facts to the contrary, I'd like to hear them.
 
I agree, engine braking is all good. The forces and internal temperatures are way less than what's on engine/drivetrain during acceleration. after all it's just air compression (and engine inertia) that's slowing the car down, instead of combustion that speeds the car up.
 
Dang, I can’t quote the source, but they were interviewing some authority on the subject of engine braking on the radio a few years ago. Guy pointed out that up to perhaps as late as the ‘70’s, brake technology wasn’t the greatest and using the engine to brake was common practice. But these days it just doesn’t make sense to rev up an expensive drive train to do what much cheaper and mechanically simpler brakes are there to do.
I do mild engine braking; you pretty much do it automatically if you let off the gas without stepping on the clutch; and it comes in handy during gentle transitions in stop-and-go traffic, and during refined driving on the track, to hear the motor burble, etc.
But use the engine as a brake every time? Seems unwise.
 
Anywho, re the original subject:
I suspect that transmissions are pretty much the same across the bottom of Honda’s product lines (Civic) as they are in the top (NSX’s). I shift my old DX smooth as silk to minimize wear on the plates, but as for skip shifting, I’ve done it without a second thought when the situation seemed to warrant it for almost 20 years, and the transmission works just like new (’93, 250K miles).
Aside from normal maintenance, no work has been done on the tranny at all.

I thought I knew it all; but now I’m going to use the Civic as a cheap way to experiment with all the techniques mentioned on here.
 
Dang, I can’t quote the source, but they were interviewing some authority on the subject of engine braking on the radio a few years ago. Guy pointed out that up to perhaps as late as the ‘70’s, brake technology wasn’t the greatest and using the engine to brake was common practice. But these days it just doesn’t make sense to rev up an expensive drive train to do what much cheaper and mechanically simpler brakes are there to do.

Didn't Jackie Stewart once say something like "The engine is for making the car go. The brakes are for making the car stop."

Is that to what you are referring?
 
Dang, I can’t quote the source, but they were interviewing some authority on the subject of engine braking on the radio a few years ago. Guy pointed out that up to perhaps as late as the ‘70’s, brake technology wasn’t the greatest and using the engine to brake was common practice. But these days it just doesn’t make sense to rev up an expensive drive train to do what much cheaper and mechanically simpler brakes are there to do.

We are going off on a tangent here because of Latzke's post. No one had suggested that you constantly use the engine and rev it out to 8K in order to slow down. I hope everyone is clear on that.

What I am saying is that the "proper" way to slow is to always be in the right gear for your speed. It all depends on how fast you are slowing, obviously a panic stop and a slam on the brakes requires both feet in.

So if you are going to slow properly, you need to be in the right gears. That requires downshifts, and you blip the throttle, rev match, let off the clutch, and continue to slow... Because you are decelerating, the engine is naturally braking. You may be using a lot of the brake still, or be on them mildly, or see no need to be on them at all when it is a slow decent and the engine is doing enough on it's own. As you slow down more, in order to keep the motor from bogging, you blip and go down one more.... and one more until you are at a stop. That is a proper way to slow if time allows. Any modern automated clutch transmission does the same. Any Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, some Porsches, they all "blip" and row down the gears as you slow.

You can also just press in the clutch and use the brakes to stop fast if you need to. Either is fine.

The bad habit, is being in 4th, then as you slow down you press in the clutch once, hold it in, then go 3, 2, 1... Depending on how fast you are doing this, you are making the synchros work. Try going 60, pressing in the clutch and going to 1. It won't let you... the synchro is still trying to work. The point is, just because the engine is disconnected from the transmission, it doesn't mean there is nothing going on in the transmission. Just because you have pushed in the clutch, it doesn't mean that skipping gears without letting off the clutch is a good idea.

The better habit is, if you happen to be in 4 at high speed, and coming to a slow, push in the clutch, go to neutral, let off the clutch then push it back in, then you can go 3,2,1 without letting go the clutch again. You've "double declutched" and slowed the shaft speed.

To summarize all of this:

1) Try to always rev match

2) If you can, try to learn how to heel and toe
3) Don't skip shift. Don't rev the motor out in first or second then suddenly go to "Cruise mode' by skipping 2 gears. Just avoid doing this.

4) Practice double clutching. This makes the synchros work much less. Going from 1-2, you press in the clutch, go to neutral, let off the clutch then press it back in, then go to 2, and let off. Going down, you press the clutch in say 4, let off it in neutral then press it back in, go to 3, let off the clutch. If you are good, you are also blipping the throttle to rev match, that saves the clutch.

These techniques are great to know well, make you a better driver, make the car shift smoother, save the synchros and the clutch, cool the motor, and best of all, are fun. Just like a stick is more involving than an auto, driving a stick poroperly is a lot more fun than just shifting up and down like every other non-technical driver.
 
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I've never skip shifted, but after reading the Acura TSB about skip shifting and how it is brutal on your synchros, I've tried to educate all my friends.
 
stoopid question: If you are in 5th and need to come to a quick stop, how do you have enuf time to go to 4,3,2,1?

You don't. You press in the clutch and come to a stop. It's fine. We are talking about improving general driving habits. Since you never changed gears and just came to a stop, you didn't use any synchros anyway.
 
The better habit is, if you happen to be in 4 at high speed, and coming to a slow, push in the clutch, go to neutral, let off the clutch then push it back in, then you can go 3,2,1 without letting go the clutch again. You've "double declutched" and slowed the shaft speed.

You say better, I say unnecessary and weird. If I am slowing to a stop...I'm not going to row through the gears like this. Why make the synchros work. Just slow in neutral (or 4th until you get to idle, then neutral), stop, wait until the light turns green, put in gear, and go.

Most of this "advice" you're giving is really just adding unnecessary complexity to the wonderful experience if driving a manual-transmission vehicle.
 
4) Practice double clutching. This makes the synchros work much less. Going from 1-2, you press in the clutch, go to neutral, let off the clutch then press it back in, then go to 2, and let off. Going down, you press the clutch in say 4, let off it in neutral then press it back in, go to 3, let off the clutch. If you are good, you are also blipping the throttle to rev match, that saves the clutch.

Ok.....
Call me un-educated but - I have just now discovered what doubled-clutching means. :eek:

Turbo2go - Thank you for the explaination. :)
until I read your reply, I had no clue what double-clutch(ing) meant.

Only thing is however, that seems like a heck of a lot of work.
IDK......
that just seems like a lot more clutch usage (to me). But again... I am obviously un-educated with the idea of double-clutching. Might be easier on the syncro's but sheesh, that seems that there is much more 'work' involved than actually the enjoyment of driving the car.

Thoughts ?
 
Most of this "advice" you're giving is really just adding unnecessary complexity to the wonderful experience if driving a manual-transmission vehicle.

Latzke saying I am giving "Advice" in quotes, implies the information I am presenting is bad. If you have a point of disagreement, then please present information to the contrary, and if you are correct, then we have all been educated more. So far, you have told me not to heel and toe the way I do, which I showed you is also done by Senna and many professional drivers. You have said using the engine to decelarate is bad, I asked how it is worse than using it to accelerate, but you haven't answered the question.

When I said "better" above, please understand that the context was that if you are at speed, and you are coming to a stop and press in the clutch only once and row down, you are making every synchro work. If you happen to do this at speed, and you haven't slowed shaft speed by a double clutch, you are making them work harder. Because the clutch has not been released, you have gone from 4-1, and essentially skip shifted. Exactly what the Acura TSB said not to do. In that context, it most certainly IS better to double clutch and row down than to just row down. If you want to come to a stop from high speed by simply staying in that gear or staying in neutral, that is fine, I already stated this above.

All of this is speed based. How much wear occurs on the synchros does depend fully on how fast you are doing these shifts. Since skip shifts sometimes are fast, they do damage. If you are slowly coming to a stop, wear on the synchro is much less as you row down. Nonetheless, double clutching NEVER HURTS.

As far as it taking away from "enjoyment of driving", I feel it is the opposite. It takes extra skill to do this properly, and engages the driver more.
 
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Ok.....
Call me un-educated but - I have just now discovered what doubled-clutching means. :eek:

Turbo2go - Thank you for the explaination. :)
until I read your reply, I had no clue what double-clutch(ing) meant.

Only thing is however, that seems like a heck of a lot of work.
IDK......
that just seems like a lot more clutch usage (to me). But again... I am obviously un-educated with the idea of double-clutching. Might be easier on the syncro's but sheesh, that seems that there is much more 'work' involved than actually the enjoyment of driving the car.

Thoughts ?

Wagy, there is no extra wear on the clutch at all because you double clutch. The "extra" press in and release of the clutch is done while the transmission is in neutral, it is not engaging anything at all. It's no different than a single clutch as far as wear.

If you feel it's extra "work", you don't have to do it. None of this is CRITICAL, other than I would say not skip shifting at high speed. You don't have to rev match, and there is slightly more wear on the clutch. You don't have to double clutch, there is slightly more wear on the synchro. Which may still last you a really long time anyway. There are so many factors involved... speed of the car, speed of your shifts, the frequency with which you skip gears, etc.

What I am saying is no "MUST DO" bible, I am only saying it is a better more professional way of driving and there is technical information (which I posted) to back it up. Whether you feel it adds or takes away from "driving enjoyment" of course is personal, but I would certainly try it. It is easy to do on the street, and helps a lot if you are on the track.
 
All this must be true because I saw it in Fast & Furious. :eek:



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Check out the comments for further debate on double clutching.
 
Latzke saying I am giving "Advice" in quotes, implies the information I am presenting is bad. If you have a point of disagreement, then please present information to the contrary, and if you are correct, then we have all been educated more. So far, you have told me not to heel and toe the way I do, which I showed you is also done by Senna and many professional drivers. You have said using the engine to decelarate is bad, I asked how it is worse than using it to accelerate, but you haven't answered the question.

Yes, I am using scarequotes because I think your advice is bad.

One point of disagreement would be that you seem to not understand double-clutching. The point of double-clutching is not to slow the input shaft speed before shifting, but to match the input shaft's speed to the vehicle's speed as it relates to the gear you are shifting into. Double clutching is not simply disengaging the clutch to get out of gear and then engaging and disengaging while in neutral without regard to vehicle and engine speed (then selecting the next gear). Double-clutching is disengaging the clutch to get out of gear, then engaging the clutch, then with it engaged matching the engine speed to the next gear to be selected and vehicle speed, then disengaging the clutch to shift into that next gear. Point is to match input shaft speed to output shaft speed, for the next gear to be selected, so the synchros don't have to do much/any work to align their speeds.

So, I don't see either of the following examples as necessarily being better than the other. You claim the latter is, but they are functionally the same.

The bad habit, is being in 4th, then as you slow down you press in the clutch once, hold it in, then go 3, 2, 1... Depending on how fast you are doing this, you are making the synchros work.

...

The better habit is, if you happen to be in 4 at high speed, and coming to a slow, push in the clutch, go to neutral, let off the clutch then push it back in, then you can go 3,2,1 without letting go the clutch again. You've "double declutched" and slowed the shaft speed.

For the second to be categorically better than the first you have to not just do the opposite of what I've highlighted in bold (you DO have to engage the clutch while in neutral between each of these gears) but you ALSO have to rev-match while the clutch is so engaged between each gear.

Another technique that is just as effective is to clutch to get to neutral, slow to stop, wait till time to go, then put in gear and go (or if not slowing to a stop - shift to neutral, slow to desired speed, rev-match with clutch engaged, shift into gear).

Rev-matching without double-clutching reduces clutch wear...rev-matching while double-clutching (proper double-clutching) saves synchro and clutch wear. Most find proper double-clutching a lot of effort...in which case one of the best means of reducing synchro wear is to shift less (like don't row down gears unnecessarily).

On engine braking...

Brakes are cheap, engines/transmissions/clutches are not. Use the cheap one to slow the vehicle. The one benefit you've claimed for using the engine to decelerate is cooling, which would only really matter on a track (heat is not an issue otherwise). On the street you're totally unnecessarily adding wear to parts (clutch, synchros, gears, engine) by downshifting a gear at a time and letting the engine slow the vehicle. Why? Explain the purpose or benefit...other than maybe feeling cool or enjoying the sounds (which may be a fine justification for the extra wear).
 
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Rev matching and engine speeds have nothing to do with synchro wear. Only with clutch wear. Double clutching will always save on synchro wear. It stabilizes the input and output shaft speeds.

Double-clutching is only useful to save synchro wear if paired with rev-matching (while the clutch is engaged in neutral). That is the mechanism by which the input and output shafts are stabilized.
 
I've been saying double clutch and rev match the whole time. If you rev match, you are matching input and output shaft speed. Right? it equates to the same thing.

I also, AGAIN, never suggested the engine be used instead of brakes. This is the third time I am saying this. I was adressing the concern that if you double clutch, rev match, and slow down (and you may be on the brakes as well), it isn't any worse for the motor than accelerating. I have yet to hear a reason as to why this is not true.
 
Engine braking isn't any different than the engine revving to accelerate other than the cooling effect I mentioned. If you have facts to the contrary, I'd like to hear them.

Yeah but engine braking puts additional stress on an engine while braking puts stress on brake pads(which are a wear item). Which is cheaper to replace?:wink:
 
As you slow down more, in order to keep the motor from bogging, you blip and go down one more.... and one more until you are at a stop. That is a proper way to slow if time allows. Any modern automated clutch transmission does the same. Any Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, some Porsches, they all "blip" and row down the gears as you slow.

Yes, you don't want to bog, no you don't have to row down to keep from bogging (neutral works well also). This is only the proper way to slow if you want to always be in an optimal gear for accelerating (so at any moment during your slowing you can punch the gas and get good acceleration).

This is why the automatic transmissions do it. They don't know your intentions (slowing to a stop or slowing and then punching it like on a track). They keep the car ready for you to punch it. If they didn't, when you punched it you'd have to wait for a downshift.
 
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