• Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.

How do you drive?

Which do you do when driving your NSX.

  • I heel and toe rev match

    Votes: 70 43.8%
  • I don't heel and toe but I rev match if my foot is free (not going into a turn)

    Votes: 61 38.1%
  • I double clutch on upshifts

    Votes: 9 5.6%
  • I skip shift meaning I will rev out the motor in one gesr and skip a gear at times.

    Votes: 32 20.0%
  • I don't do any of the above.

    Votes: 33 20.6%

  • Total voters
    160
I've been saying double clutch and rev match the whole time. If you rev match, you are matching input and output shaft speed. Right? it equates to the same thing.

Then you have a funny way of saying things without saying them and while saying contradictory things. I guess we should all know what you intended to say...and shouldn't take your words literally?

Edited to add:

By "without saying them" I mean: I've not seen a single post where you describe the process double-clutching that includes a description of the necessary/integral step of matching the revs while the clutch is engaged while transmission is in neutral.

By "while saying contradictory things" I mean: You've been treating them as separate things, saying things like "rev-matching is unrelated to synchro wear", said that one could keep the clutch depressed while rowing through a few gears because the double-clutching was already done (which is wrong, it has to be done between each gear).
 
Last edited:
You've also never said how big your feet are (shoe size) which do not allow you to heel-toe (with your heel and toe).

Why? are you going to try to convince me that I am wrong using the side of my foot to heel and toe? If that is the case then I'd say a lot of people including BOTH videos posted here are also wrong.

It depends on my shoe, it is 12-13 usually. Wider shoes are worse. I've tried to do this enough times to know what happens. The top of my foot gets caught if it is high enough to clear the bottom.

I can heel and toe perfectly well using the same method you see the guy in the first video and Senna used. So what is it you want to fix? I've NEVER fely like my foot didnt wasn't firmly on the brake and in full control. Smaller feet can turn easier.
 
Last edited:
Why? are you going to try to convince me that I am wrong using the side of my foot to heel and toe? If that is the case then I'd say a lot of people including BOTH videos posted here are also wrong.

It depends on my shoe, it is 12-13 usually. Wider shoes are worse. I've tried to do this enough times to know what happens. The top of my foot gets caught if it is high enough to clear the bottom.

Mostly I'm curious (how big a foot is too big to heel-toe in an NSX). I will admit I was tempted to judge this technique by it's context (next to other bad information). Also, my experience with small feet makes the leaning-foot method sound scary, when obviously it is not (plenty of people apparently do it).
 
Mostly I'm curious (how big a foot is too big to heel-toe in an NSX). I will admit I was tempted to judge this technique by it's context (next to other bad information). Also, my experience with small feet makes the leaning-foot method sound scary, when obviously it is not (plenty of people apparently do it).

OK good, are we OK with this now? You can heel and toe by a slight roll of your foot.

What you call a "proper double clutch" includes a rev match, and I said you should double clutch and rev match. Whether you think I said it correct or not, the bottom line is we both agree this is what you want to do when doing it.

Engine braking is no harder on the engine itself as is being at those same RPM's accelerating. Cooling affect takes place, and that is more useful on the track.
 
Last edited:
Then you have a funny way of saying things without saying them and while saying contradictory things. I guess we should all know what you intended to say...and shouldn't take your words literally?

Edited to add:

By "without saying them" I mean: I've not seen a single post where you describe the process double-clutching that includes a description of the necessary/integral step of matching the revs while the clutch is engaged while transmission is in neutral.

By "while saying contradictory things" I mean: You've been treating them as separate things, saying things like "rev-matching is unrelated to synchro wear", said that one could keep the clutch depressed while rowing through a few gears because the double-clutching was already done (which is wrong, it has to be done between each gear).

That's all fine, but the end result of what I have been saying and what you are saying is EXACTLY the same. Hard to say it is "bad advice" when the act is identical.

Seems like you are more intent on saying I am "wrong" than the actual practice of what has been posted here.
 
Last edited:
I don't think this has been posted up in this thread yet. All this talk reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkYDMPyycoo

The old NSX on the Nurburgring video.

Yes, see here GanSan has a smaller foot. You can see it in relation to the pedals. Makes it easier to go counter clockwise and tap the throttle. With a bigger foot or a big shoe, and less space, you can roll as senna was doing.
 
OK good, are we OK with this now? You can heel and toe by a slight roll of your foot.

What you call a "proper double clutch" includes a rev match, and I said you should double clutch and rev match. Whether you think I said it correct or not, the bottom line is we both agree this is what you want to do when doing it.

Engine braking is no harder on the engine itself as is being at those same RPM's accelerating. Cooling affect takes place, and that is more useful on the track.

Yes on the first.

If we're in agreement, retract your statement about it being better to row through gears after a single double-clutch...and edit all of your posts describing double-clutching to include rev-matching while the clutch is engaged in neutral. A "double-clutch" without rev matching while clutch is engaged in neutral is not a double-clutch at all. I used "proper double-clutch" to distinguish between a double-clutch (using the technique I've described) and what I had understood you to be describing (disengaging the clutch to get out of gear, engaging in neutral with any engine speed, disengaging to select one or multiple successive gears, engaging) - which was incorrectly being called double-clutching.

On the third, I'm sticking with my statements that it is better to brake with brakes than with the engine. Engine breaking, especially with downshifting through each gear, is unnecessary wear on engine/transmission/clutch regardless of if the engine wear under negative load is greater or less than wear experienced during positive load.
 
That's all fine, but the end result of what I have been saying and what you are saying is EXACTLY the same. Hard to say it is "bad advice" when the act is identical.

Seems like you are more intent on saying I am "wrong" than the actual practice of what has been posted here.

We are not saying exactly the same thing.

You are wrong.

While we are in agreement that double-clutching can reduce synchro wear, I would not recommend that anyone use it in actual practice. I would especially not recommend if it included the associated practices that you include (like successive downshifts while slowing) which are likely to more than negate the savings in wear from double-clutching.
 
I would like to know why you say double clutching does indeed save synchro wear yet "don't do it". I have yet to ever read anything saying double clutching is bad. It is such a common practice by pro drivers in all sorts of scenarios, street and track. I would like to know why you say don't do it. Whatever your reason is for this one, I can tell you I have never heard it before.
 
I would like to know why you say double clutching does indeed save synchro wear yet "don't do it". I have yet to ever read anything saying double clutching is bad. It is such a common practice by pro drivers in all sorts of scenarios, street and track. I would like to know why you say don't do it. Whatever your reason is for this one, I can tell you I have never heard it before.

Much effort for little return.
 
Yes, from what I understand, double clutching is the best way IF you can execute it properly and match the revs precisely.

But I've been told it is unnecessary for modern cars with synchros, and I have to agree that it is much more work despite only being 2-3 more steps. The problem is that those steps add up for everyday driving.

And no matter what anybody says, double clutching will always be slower than just rev matching. I'm sure some of you will brag about how fast you are, but you'd be even faster if you just rev matched.
 
The thing is that double clutching can really be handy sometimes, and without practice you just won't have it. Doing it never hurts anything, and when I was emphasizing it, it was doing it when skipping up or skipping down.

To those that don't believe, I would say try a few proper double clutches and notice how smooth the car changes gears. When really cold, my NSX is a bit notchy on second. With a good double clutch it is like butter. For someone like midnight raven who has some level of damage, it is very useful. There is a reason why Honda in the later years bolstered the synchros of the lower gears.
 
Last edited:
Much effort for little return.

That's a matter of personal opinion. I'd 100% take a car with 50k miles whose owner properly double clutched when necessary than one whose owner had no clue what that was and skip shifted regularly. I don't believe those synchros will be at nearly the same health level. So I think you should just state the facts and let everyone decide on their own what they should do, not do, learn, not learn, practice, or not practice.
 
I am bumping this thread because since I posted it I have had the chance to drive two local NSX's with some amount of synchro wear. Both would grind when shifted normally, both shift with no grind when double clutched. I've also spent another year constantly practicing, and have gotten quite proficient going up and down. Shifts are consistently smoother. Over time I also know the point Latzke was trying to argue about is a non-issue in real life. If you double clutch going up, it happens in a second and the revs tend to naturally fall exactly where you need them. If you are going down, the rev match is done naturally where it needs to be done.

All this fancy footwork, especially at speed, has become quite enjoyable and more involving. I encourage anyone who just shifts in a "standard" way to explore some more advanced shift methods. It also helps the clutch and done right decreases synchro wear.
 
Remember it took me months to get good at heel-toe downshift/braking. I do not know how long it would take to add double clutching into the technique...
 
I've also spent another year constantly practicing, and have gotten quite proficient going up and down. ...It also helps the clutch and done right decreases synchro wear.

1.
Why double clutch upshifts? The intermediate shaft naturally slows down and the desired gear will be rev matched with the output shaft after the proper delay. A double clutch upshifts implies that you have waited too long and need to spin the intermediate shaft back up to the appropriate speed.

2.
How does double clutching help the clutch? You are using the clutch more, to accelerate the transmission intermediate shaft, and therefore wearing your clutch more. It may be worth it because of reduced synchro wear, but it is not helping the clutch. Rev matching without doubt helps the clutch but adding double clutching provides no further benefit to the clutch, only a small amount of additional wear.

I'm no expert but have driven my dad's model A, which does not have synchros. It is very picky about rev matching the transmission internals. I enjoy double clutching my NSX downshifts, particularly 1st, which isn't always the easiest for the synchros to handle alone.
 
drive normal no real need to double clutch or heel to toe cuz Im never on a track and never will be. can still take corners at full RPMs cuz I know my car. I can do this and I can do that really doesnt matter if your a good driver to begin with.

my 2 cents also I have never been on a track with any of my NSX's since I dont have an oil pan baffle.

would be fun though winning with beginers luck
 
1.
Why double clutch upshifts? The intermediate shaft naturally slows down and the desired gear will be rev matched with the output shaft after the proper delay. A double clutch upshifts implies that you have waited too long and need to spin the intermediate shaft back up to the appropriate speed.

2.
How does double clutching help the clutch? You are using the clutch more, to accelerate the transmission intermediate shaft, and therefore wearing your clutch more. It may be worth it because of reduced synchro wear, but it is not helping the clutch. Rev matching without doubt helps the clutch but adding double clutching provides no further benefit to the clutch, only a small amount of additional wear.

I'm no expert but have driven my dad's model A, which does not have synchros. It is very picky about rev matching the transmission internals. I enjoy double clutching my NSX downshifts, particularly 1st, which isn't always the easiest for the synchros to handle alone.

I never go to 1st unless I am at a full stop. I never said double clutching helps reduce clutch wear. I said "I encourage anyone who just shifts in a "standard" way to explore some more advanced shift methods". That advanced shift method includes rev matching. That helps the clutch.

With proficiency the double clutch takes fractions of a second longer than standard single clutch use. You won't be waiting too long. Everything depends on where your revs are, what gear you are in, what your speed is, etc. But in general, you will ease the load on the synchros. You don't have to take my word for it. You can try it and see the results of the incredibly smooth shifts for yourself. Especially on a transmission with worn synchros.

I can get into any car now and drive it much smoother than most people. But it has been a ton of practice. A double clutch heel and toe down shift requires a lot of practice. Now on track my instructors all comment on how well I execute shifts and heel and toe. I drive midnight raven's car with a second gear synchro issue and I simply don't grind, where he does. I've encouraged him to practice.

None of this is "necessary" and I am not telling anyone they need to do this. I am saying if you like driving, if you like being more involved, if you like learning a new skill, you can improve and become a superior shifter than the guy who simply "shifts" his entire life and puts the load on the car. You may never have any "issues" if you don't rev match or double clutch a single time. The only thing you should NOT do, as documented by the TSB Acura sent out, is skip shift. If you are double clutching, you are easing the load on the synchros even during that brutal practice.
 
Fair enough, I didn't mean to misquote you. If you agree that double clutching does not help the clutch then what is the benefit of double clutching during upshifts? You're not asserting, are you, that it is better on the synchros, as we all agree it is on a downshift?
 
Fair enough, I didn't mean to misquote you. If you agree that double clutching does not help the clutch then what is the benefit of double clutching during upshifts? You're not asserting, are you, that it is better on the synchros, as we all agree it is on a downshift?

Well it depends on what you are doing. If you are in second and rev out to 8K then decide to go to 4 and drive past the popo slowly, a double clutch will certainly have helped you. And I am telling you from experience, as much as anyone wants to argue the technical aspect of this... 2-3 shifts on Raven's car are often a grind. That is going UP. When I double clutch it, there is no grind. I am not sure exactly what is lining up there... but you don't have to be a technical genius to know that no-grind is better than grind.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top