• Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.

NA injector upgrades

I spoke with the racing team again today. To summarize the conversation, adjusting cam gears on an engine dyno goes something like this:
  • Remove the engine from the car
  • Fabricate a flywheel so that the engine can be mounted to the engine dyno
  • Attach an intake system to the engine
  • Hook up an exhaust system to the engine
  • Hook up the engine electronics
  • Adjust the camshafts to the manufacturer’s recommended specs
  • Dyno tune fuel and ignition maps for those cam timing settings
  • Adjust the timing of the intake camshaft
  • Dyno tune fuel and ignition maps for that setting
  • Adjust the timing of the intake camshaft further
  • Dyno tune the fuel and ignition maps again
  • Adjust the exhaust camshaft timing
  • Dyno tune the fuel and ignition maps
  • etc.
  • Play with the VTEC changeover point at various cam timing settings
  • Continue until you’ve found the setup you like best
  • Reinstall the engine in the car
  • Flash a chip for the PGM-FI for the camshaft adjustment you ended up with
Even with an electrical harness and PGM-FI computer available outside the car, the cost to properly degree the camshafts on an engine dynamometer will probably run into five figures. It would result in a better cam timing adjustment than simply following the manufacturer’s recommendations. However, if manufacturer-recommended settings are available, the gain would probably not be noticeable from the seat of the pants. If you install new parts in a combination that has not been tested before, it makes sense to go through this testing procedure.

Based on that conversation, it doesn’t make sense for me. ATR, thanks for the offer of letting me borrow parts so that my engine could run outside of the car without having to fabricate a new electrical harness. But it won’t be necessary.
 
Isn't worth it at all.

That level of tune is only needed for a ultra high end exotic build (JGTC style, twin turbo engine etc etc)
The hp/money ratio is always a critical point. only way to get that kind of tune to work is to package the data sell it as a product, which then would need a safety margin and cost to much as it would just be a other ecu tune kit.

A normal tune followed with further mechanical improvement is the best route.

On a other note if we're talking such figures, a digital pre-tune could be a idea, fully simulate the engine then start basic tuning and testing i've read about that somewhere that OEM's do that in design assessment.
Then when you have a number of viable configurations test them, thus eliminating test time.

Lotus has such a engine tune and engineering software available.
It's going to be frighteningly expensive though.


Lotus engine assessment software demo: http://www.lotusfiles.com/engineering/lesoft/freeware_software.exe
 
Last edited:
I've just installed the Prospeed RDX injectors and ECU tune and posted my before/after results here

In summary: added (only) 4 - 6kW across the range, some issues with idling, but overall a worthwhile improvement. Wondering why I did not see larger gains achieved by L_RAO and others?

Have you done yours yet greenberet ? I'm interested as I think our setups are similar. My 91 NA1 engine is stock except top speed headers, OEM intake but the trumpet in the guard has been removed, fidanza LWFW, Walbro 255 fuel pump (SoS), adjustable fuel pressure regulator and I just installed ATI super damper (before both the runs shown).
 
Last edited:
No, I haven’t installed mine yet. Since I have high-lift camshafts, adjustable cam gears, ported and polished cylinder heads, and an increased compression ratio in addition to the usual I/H/E modifications, I’m going to need a custom tune when installing the injectors. I’ve been quite busy with work but hope to get the injectors installed and the PGM-FI dialed in soon. When I do, I’ll post up the results.
 
OK you're a fair bit further down the mods path ... it would be good to see your before/after dynos, with AFRs if possible
 
You’re going to see a gain if your new injectors mix the correct amount of fuel into the air better than your old injectors did.

An engine needs about 1 part of gasoline for every 14.7 parts of air for the mixture to burn properly. If you’ve floored the accelerator and the engine is spinning at 8000 rpm, you’re pumping as much air through the combustion chambers as you can. Your injectors need to flow enough fuel to keep up with that. If you inject even more fuel than your engine needs, you’re going to see a drop in horsepower after a certain point.

The higher the injector’s flow rate, the briefer the period of time it’ll need to be open to inject the proper amount of fuel. At full throttle, injectors with too high of a flow rate will be yawning with boredom and at idle, they may be open for so few milliseconds that they don’t atomize the fuel well anymore. If your engine isn’t inhaling enough air to need 440cc, 550cc, or 725cc injectors, installing bigger injectors isn’t going to get you a horsepower gain but it may mess up your idle.

Modern injectors can atomize fuel better and can have a better spray pattern than the OEM injectors in our engines, which are based on 1980’s technology. Better injectors can get you more horsepower even if they have the same flow rate as stock.

If you want to upgrade your injectors, you could try to figure out what flow rate you need and which injectors give you the best spray pattern and atomization. Honda installed 240cc injectors into NA1s with 270 hp. So Honda’s Formula 1 engineers felt that about 0.89cc’s per horsepower was enough for an NSX engine. Multiply your crank horsepower figure by 0.89 to see what minimum flow rate you should shoot for.

The next issue is spray pattern. Ideally, it would be good to have an injector that sprays fuel down the backs of the intake valves without wetting the walls of the intake ports. Given the geometry of an NSX’s cylinder head and the positioning of the injectors, each injector should ideally spray two cones of fuel (because there are two intake valves per cylinder) with a total spray width of about 30° to achieve that.

Then we come to atomization. Modern injectors with multiple holes in the spray nozzle can atomize fuel better than older single hole injectors do.

So what injectors give you the best flow rate, spray pattern, and atomization – irrespective of cost? Six 410cc RDX injectors flow enough fuel to support 460 crank hp in an NSX using the OEM NSX injector duty cycle. That’s more than any naturally-aspirated NSX using the stock intake manifold is likely to need. Their spray pattern is just about ideal given an NSX’s cylinder head and intake manifold geometry, they atomize the fuel well, and despite their size, seem to give a stable idle.

There may be an even better injector out there for naturally-aspirated NSXs with better atomization, a lower lag time, perhaps a lower flow rate, etc. If you hear about a better injector, whatever the price, please post about it.

Given the content of your posts, it's clear that you have a much firmer grasp on internal combustion than I do, so I say this with all due respect and humility:

Not sure if you left this out on purpose (keeping it simple), but engines are engineered to dump extra fuel (~12:1) in when a large demand is placed on them (such as at WOT) in order to keep temps down to prevent detonation, overheating etc. I would assume that an aftermarket tune for a daily driver would include such a safeguard as well.

Also, at idle, AFRs are approaching 20:1 in stock engines now-a-days, to keep pollution levels down. Even at cruise, my 1998 LS1 is running about 17 or 18 to 1 AFR.
 
Last edited:
Given the content of your posts, it's clear that you have a much firmer grasp on internal combustion than I do, so I say this with all due respect and humility:

Not sure if you left this out on purpose (keeping it simple), but engines are engineered to dump extra fuel (~12:1) in when a large demand is placed on them (such as at WOT) in order to keep temps down to prevent detonation, overheating etc. I would assume that an aftermarket tune for a daily driver would include such a safeguard as well.

Also, at idle, AFRs are approaching 20:1 in stock engines now-a-days, to keep pollution levels down. Even at cruise, my 1998 LS1 is running about 17 or 18 to 1 AFR.
Well yes that's what so important in mapping and tuning a ecu keeping the safety margins acceptable.
This is especially true for forced induction cars.
 
Will there be anything to gain by only installing the injectors and NOT going through any tuning. In other words will there be any gains with installing the RDX injectors and running stock ECU maps?
 
Will there be anything to gain by only installing the injectors and NOT going through any tuning. In other words will there be any gains with installing the RDX injectors and running stock ECU maps?

As I understand it, your car won't start or idle if you do this...
 
... engines are engineered to dump extra fuel (~12:1) in when a large demand is placed on them (such as at WOT) in order to keep temps down to prevent detonation, overheating etc. …

Also, at idle, AFRs are approaching 20:1 in stock engines now-a-days, to keep pollution levels down. …

Yes, you’re right – an air/gasoline mixture doesn’t burn only when the ratio is exactly 14.7:1. That is the “ideal” stoichiometric ratio but gasoline will burn when the air/fuel ratio is within a certain range.

As you said, when a large demand is placed on the engine such as at Wide Open Throttle, engine management computers adjust the air/fuel ratio to be richer than 14.7:1. And in light load situations, many modern cars adjust the air/fuel ratio to be leaner than 14.7:1.

In our NSXs, I believe the stock EMS doesn’t adjust the air/fuel ratio to be leaner than 14.7:1. In light load situations, I think it monitors the output from the oxygen sensors and adjusts the short and long term fuel trims based on that to maintain an air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1. Adjusting the fuel trims based on the output of the oxygen sensors is called “closed loop mode”.

In high load situations, the EMS no longer targets 14.7:1. It wants to go richer. Since NSXs come from the factory with narrow-band O2 sensors that can only tell you whether you’re above or below 14.7:1, they’re pretty much useless if your target is, say, 12.6:1. So when the EMS targets air/fuel ratios richer than 14.7:1, it goes into “open loop mode”. It no longer uses the signals from the O2 sensors to determine how much fuel to inject but simply looks at the base maps programmed into it and at the fuel trims it learned in closed loop mode (which compensate for the fuel pump perhaps slowly getting tired, the fuel filter getting a bit stopped up, etc.).

In any case, when you’re driving your car, the EMS (stock or aftermarket) targets a certain air/fuel ratio, whether it’s in closed loop mode or open loop mode. Your injectors have to be able to flow enough to meet that target.

Installing larger injectors can help if the engineers who designed the car really screwed up and installed injectors that were too small. However, what are the chances that Honda’s F1 engineers specified injectors that weren’t able to meet the fuelling requirements of a stock NSX engine, didn’t catch that mistake over the car’s 15 year production run, and that the engine turned out to be pretty much bullet-proof anyhow? I think larger injectors in and of themselves aren’t going to help in a stock NSX engine. Better atomization, better spray pattern, etc. – I can see that helping, though.

Will there be anything to gain by only installing the injectors and NOT going through any tuning. In other words will there be any gains with installing the RDX injectors and running stock ECU maps?

Installing larger injectors without a retune isn’t going to work well. The engine management computer doesn’t tell the injectors how much fuel to inject. It tells them how long they should be open – what their “duration” should be. The injector’s nozzle size, the fuel pressure, and the duration taken together determine how much fuel is injected. The stock injectors in an NA1 inject 240 cc’s of fuel in some time period at some fuel pressure. In the same time period at the same fuel pressure, RDX injectors inject 440 cc’s, I believe. So when installing RDX injectors into an NSX, those injectors should be open only 55% as long as the stock injectors to maintain the targeted air/fuel ratios.

If you don’t change the duration, your air/fuel ratio will be something like 6.9:1 or 8.0:1 instead of the 12.6:1 or 14.7:1 you want to see. At an air/fuel ratio of 8:1, you’ll lose power, foul your spark plugs, and get black smoke out of your tailpipes. If you can get the car to start, that is. The stock engine management computer can adjust the fuel trims in closed loop mode and then keep applying those trims in open loop mode but I expect 440 cc injectors are going to be beyond the limits of its adjustment capability. And I think most aftermarket engine management systems don’t apply any fuel trims at all in open loop mode, so then you’re really screwed [edit: if you don’t do any tuning for the new flow rate and if you’re still using the stock narrow-band O2 sensors].
 
Last edited:
If you don’t change the duration, your air/fuel ratio will be something like 6.9:1 or 8.0:1 instead of the 12.6:1 or 14.7:1 you want to see. At an air/fuel ratio of 8:1, you’ll lose power, foul your spark plugs, and get black smoke out of your tailpipes. If you can get the car to start, that is. The stock engine management computer can adjust the fuel trims in closed loop mode and then keep applying those trims in open loop mode but I expect 440 cc injectors are going to be beyond the limits of its adjustment capability. And I think most aftermarket engine management systems don’t apply any fuel trims at all in open loop mode, so then you’re really screwed.

Thanks for the clear and thoughtful explanation. Us OBDII are limited in the rdx injectors bandwagon then.
 
Thanks for the clear and thoughtful explanation. Us OBDII are limited in the rdx injectors bandwagon then.

That isn't all true. You can run the RDX injectors however you will need a AEM/FIC to adjust for the larger injectors.
 
Will there be anything to gain by only installing the injectors and NOT going through any tuning. In other words will there be any gains with installing the RDX injectors and running stock ECU maps?

Charlee - I am on page three of this thread and your question was why I ran the search. I am curious as well. I am also curious if I should just remove/replace the injectors after sending them to RC Eng for calibration OR buy new, upgraded ones.
-Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Charlee - I am on page three of this thread and your question was why I ran the search. I am curious as well. I am also curious if I should just remove/replace the injectors after sending them to RC Eng for calibration OR buy new, upgraded ones.
-Thanks

And, then I run across the next two posts and get my answer. Seems to me that I will just take mine out, have them calibrated and move along. Thanks to Prime for this wealth of knowledge.
 
There may be an even better injector out there for naturally-aspirated NSXs with better atomization, a lower lag time, perhaps a lower flow rate, etc. If you hear about a better injector, whatever the price, please post about it.

Bumping this old thread as i think those could be candidates to better injectors:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/208707-New-Injector-Innovation-for-NSX

...and allways good to see new products/options...

If those can work P&P with the OEM ECU i think it would be a really simple and nice upgrade :cool:
 
Back
Top