RYU's "properly molested" NSX build thread

RYU said:

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I calculated that above 25MPH the OEM fan and shroud become a hindrance to the airflow.

The way the OEM shroud was trimmed above, there is approximately a 1" gap on the sides. The air will take the path of least resistance when this fan is on and the car stationary by flowing in around the sides - bypassing the radiator!

I did something similar with my OEM shroud but kept it effective. You can see the aluminum sides I made and riveted to the plastic shroud. The edges at the radiator are enclosed with silicone about 1/8" away from the radiator fins. The radiator is a PWR. Sorry - not a great picture:



Dave

Thats very clean Dave.

Thank you Jim. Unfortunately, that's what they look like when they don't get used :frown:

Definitely super clean Dave!

Gents - I apologize.. I think we're getting lost in the weeds here. It doesn't help that I used a misleading picture to illustrate my point! Agree that this shrouded setup (with the gaps on the side) would not work and like you said.. the air will get sucked in from the sides instead of thru the core.

The copper/brass radiator Jim and I are using now has a denser fin configuration than the Aluminum rads I've seen including the OEM. The denser configuration allows for better cooling capacity at the expense of requiring slightly better airflow (at stop/go traffic conditions). It's difficult to provide you guys with a comprehensive set of data because there's a lot of different configurations to test for. Not to mention it's already winter and some of these conditions can't be tested for (i.e. 100F+ LA traffic stop/go conditions where the 1 fan, no shroud configuration failed me with a stock non-vented hood)

With that said, we've tested in so many conditions already that Jim and I are already looking beyond our cooling problem of past. The MASiV radiator works for us and it's the OEM size.

Here's are the conditions we test for.

Car 1 - Jim's 500+wHP turbo, Laminova Oil Cooler, Front mount Intercooler with MASiV V3 Radiator. Tested on the track in AZ and CA. Tested on the streets and fwy.

Vented and ducted hood
* OEM shrouded fan (does not work)
* Two Mishimoto fans with the Dali Shroud (did not work with V2, haven't tested on V3)
* Two Spal Fans (ideal setup for Jim due to his high HP)

Car 2 - My car ~360+wHP CTSC, water injected, side mount oil cooler with MASiV V3 Radiator. Tested on the track in CA. Tested on the streets and heavy LA fwy stop/go traffic.

Type R style Vented hood
* OEM shrouded fan (works fine)
* OEM shrouded Spal Fan (also works at the track)
* Single Spal, no shroud (this might work because the vented hood will allow enough low pressure air behind the rad. Have not tried it)
* Two Spal Fans, no shroud (have yet to try this but we already know it works in Jim's car)

OEM non-vented hood
* OEM shrouded fan (works at the track at track speeds but I experienced slightly longer cool down times, not alarming because as I pulled into the paddock ECT was 82C but as I was pulling into my stall it climbed to 90C+. I had to do a slow lap around the parking lot and it got back down to 79C before I turned off the car. As Jim mentioned it cools down fast enough)
* OEM shrouded Spal Fan (also works on/off the track, my best configuration so far for all conditions)
* Single Spal, no shroud (have not tried this yet but I hypothesize it might not work in stop/go LA traffic because the MASiV is a denser core rad and requires more airflow in stop/go conditions. Without the additional low pressure venting of a vented hood I believe the air flow will suffer. I hypothesized with Billy that if this was a side-to-side flowing rad that it would work with this fan config but it won't work with a top-bottom flowing rad)
* Two Spal Fans, no shroud (have yet to try this)

Hope this helps illustrate that there are a lot of conditions to test for. Happy to hear your thoughts!

p.s. I forgot to mention that I have two slim Mishimoto fans. They are really mediocre fans but they are slim and draw very little current. I will try this fan config with no shroud soon. I think it will work with the MASiV V3 because the fin design is more optimized for air flow.

LOL...I meant the set up, LOL...but that too.

Mac Attack said:

Thank you Jim. Unfortunately, that's what they look like when they don't get used :frown:

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RYU said:

* Single Spal, no shroud (have not tried this yet but I hypothesize it might not work in stop/go LA traffic because the MASiV is a denser core rad and requires more airflow in stop/go conditions. Without the additional low pressure venting of a vented hood I believe the air flow will suffer. I hypothesized with Billy that if this was a side-to-side flowing rad that it would work with this fan config but it won't work with a top-bottom flowing rad)
* Two Spal Fans, no shroud (have yet to try this)

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I'm not sure if this is true. I understand your thought that the vertical flow/fin OEM design would lead to a larger surface area that is not being cooled, however: (let's assume a radiator is 2' tall x 4' wide)

Vertical flow/fin OEM Design
-The water going through fins that are cooled by the fan are moving slower so they are being cooled longer (4' wide traveling 2' vertically)

A cross-flow (horizontal fins) radiator
-More of the fins in contact with the cooling ability of the fan, BUT the flow is moving much faster so the water has less time to cool down when in contact with the fan because the flow through the horizontal fins is higher (2' vertically travelling 4' horizontally)



Keep in mind that fans are pretty much only good for stagnant air/stop and go traffic. With that in mind, the surface area of the fan (which is increased by a shroud -but also adds a restriction at speed -on another side note, fans themselves are restrictions at speed) and the CFMs of the fan are the two major aspects we are looking at. If we use the same diameter fan in both the vertical and horizontal flow radiators above, we have the same amount of cooling surface area interaction that the fan has on the radiator. So the question is:

-Does a slower moving flow of the vertical design cool better despite a larger surface not being cooled by the fins, or:
-Does the horizontal design cool better when more fins are in contact with the fan despite the faster moving flow?

The goal is to use the smallest surface area fan with the lowest amp draw that will suffice for the worst possible conditions. I appreciate all of the hard work and my input is intended to help guide proper testing so I know what to put on my personal car


On a side note, I don't think the vented hood has a significant benefit on cooling in stagnant air. I think a stock non vented hood (as long as there is no flat-bottom tray that blocks off the factory radiator exit to the ground) would not be any worse to deal with the volume of air exiting the fan. Where a vented and properly ducted hood makes a big difference is when the car is at speed and there is far greater flow than the fan can provide (which is why a fan is a restriction at speed).

Are those exhaust for sale? sounds wicked

Billy - I think we're at a point were I can only validate (or invalidate) what you're saying thru testing. Our test results are the best we can do for now. I will still hold true to my theories based on an educated guess extrapolated from our testing data. Keep in mind, that when you bring in time or rather, the duration of time's affect on liquid coolant cooling thru the tubes.. it's a different variable that we're adding here. In stop/go traffic you're usually at idle or at low RPMs therefore the flow of coolant is slower and the coolant spends more time being cooled in the radiator because we have rpm based mechanic water pumps not electric pumps. Yet, the cold coolant spends less time circulating thru the engine. I've experienced instances where giving the car a little bit or RPM cools the engine faster.

Also, you'll have to redo your diagrams because Nick just reconfirmed that the flow is IN from the bottom and OUT thru the top. Now tell me why this matters again?

Best of luck this wknd man! I'm desperately trying to go!!

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Redgts said:

Are those exhaust for sale? sounds wicked

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Thanks! That's a killer garage you have there! No, unfortunately my exhaust is a one-off

It was inspired by Mac Attack's work on his own exhaust F1 sounding valved exhaust system. I spend a couple years bugging Dave about it. Thanks Dave!

I'm using two vacuum actuated valves which can be configured to operate in 4 different ways. At the track it's open, free flowing, and sounds wicked (free'd up 30wHP too when paired with the CT headers). On the street the valves only open in Vtec (when VViS opens) or I can configure it to open at 0 vaccuum or under boost. When the valves are closed the exhaust gasses are routed thru 50 state legal cats, and into a mixing chamber so the sound is aggressive but not loud. My gf loves it. It's all automatic, street friend, frees up power, and quiet which were all key design criterias.

The whole thing saved me about 39lbs compared to stock too.

RYU said:

Billy - I think we're at a point were I can only validate (or invalidate) what you're saying thru testing. Our test results are the best we can do for now. I will still hold true to my theories based on an educated guess extrapolated from our testing data. Keep in mind, that when you bring in time or rather, the duration of time's affect on liquid coolant cooling thru the tubes.. it's a different variable that we're adding here. In stop/go traffic you're usually at idle or at low RPMs therefore the flow of coolant is slower and the coolant spends more time being cooled in the radiator because we have rpm based mechanic water pumps not electric pumps. Yet, the cold coolant spends less time circulating thru the engine. I've experienced instances where giving the car a little bit or RPM cools the engine faster.

Also, you'll have to redo your diagrams because Nick just reconfirmed that the flow is IN from the bottom and OUT thru the top. Now tell me why this matters again?

Best of luck this wknd man! I'm desperately trying to go!!]

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If slowing down the flow improves cooling we would always want to under drive the water pump. Engines make heat, and the more cool water it gets the cooler it will run (as long as the rad can take the heat off). Ideally you would have a pump moving a lot of water at low engine rpm and zero load to cool it the most efficiently.

In the top is common in FR cars for purging reasons and so high pressure goes in the top of the rad and low pressure out of the bottom where its picked up by the suction of the water pump. Not familiar with the big picture on a MR layout.

Pure genius ! Wish we had more like you

hmmmm could RYU be the next John at Microsoft.....:wink: And I'm glad that Billy now has more time on his hands to lend his experience.......since 65% of his "office space" is not usable:wink:

Something I'd recommend for any 5spd owner is the Dali short shifter kit. It makes a big difference in your driving experience.





this is the air to oil cooler I picked up from Wayne in aus. I added ducting but its still a wip. He already had the HKS sensor bungs so it worked out well. I traded away my old Dali tilton flywheel for it.





1.7L Autorotor Comptech Supercharger install. Best use for the kitchen table





No turning back now. In actuality it took me longer to clean everything under there.



Phew



After the ctsc install I began to struggle with high IATs. I felt like the data on prime at the time was slim so I started monitoring and data logging. It prompted this thread. It's a good read if you want to under how the ctsc system works and options to cool it.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/152610-Meth-Kit-with-CTSC

i decided an inter cooler/after cooler was too complicated, expensive, an a failure would mean coolant down the intake. No bueno for me. I decided to experiment with water injection. Coupled with an HKS FCon it's been working incredibly well. With no real downside except a slight loss of peak HP. Well worth it...



this process also helped me gain an appreciation for the various engine management systems out there. With guidance from my friend Jon we decided to use the HKS FCon iS piggyback. It's a powerful little guy and has the video sensor outputs I needed for the track. See screen above.

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Something I'd like to install before this summers track season. These the phenolic gaskets that ASM sells. He custom built the autorotor center plate for me with provisions for a spray nozzle post blower.



It will have to wait since the car is getting the DF wide front fenders installed and I'm waiting on my OS Giken clutch to come in

You and your car has always amazed me with the attention to detail and sticking with it until you got it right. A simply marvelous car.

RYU= http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Penseur.jpg/170px-Paris_2010_-_Le_Penseur.jpg

Thank you guys... I think. haha

I checked on my DF fenders today. Looking real good.



I completely forgot to ask Peter NOT to cut out the JDM side marker location. So I asked LTMW to fill it in for me. They know their way around fiberglass and did great work on the fill.



I hope once and for all I can run 235s up front w/o tearing up my fender liners and/or my fenders.

Can't wait to see your car Regan! I'm curious how much it cost to paint and fit the fenders? The DF is my next project to tackle so I can fit finally fit my TE37s. Feel free to PM me. = )

I'll find out the cost this weekend when done. When its LTMW I trust that the work will get done right at a reasonable cost so I didn't ask beforehand lol.

Decided to take most of today to button up the NSX. Still fighting thru setup issues so I've changed things around today.

* Swapped to 11K springs in the front from 9K. Now i'm on front 11K and rear 11K.
* Installed a revised set of lift pistons/cups that I designed. Made some minor improvements from the 1st gen which also worked great.
* Installed the 1" Dali track sway bar up front. I set it at the middle setting. I had the Type R front bar previously.
* Installed the 0.875" Dali street/track bar for the rear. II set it at the softest setting. I already had these bars so I figured...why not give it a shot. I had the stock 17mm bar. FYI the Zanardi is 19mm. This street/track bar is 22mm.
* Installed TiDave's sway bar end links. I think I got two different ones for the rears I need to email Dave.
* Installed the DF front fenders with side marker delete
* Installed a 3yr old set of front 235/40r17 and new 275/35r18 NT-05 tires. I probably should have gone with taller rears like the 295s because TCS is going off a tiny bit here and there.

Before track day on Saturday...
* I hope to install my harness and harness bar. Not quite sure what's involved in that but I don't think it's as easy as it looks.
* The most important task of today which ultimately ended in a fail was to flush the brake fluid and install new brake pads. The Porterfield pads are too damn thick. About 1mm too thick on each pad. I couldn't even silde them into the caliper. Ugh. I hope I get this resolved by this Saturday or else it's the backup car (BRZ).

Does anyone know how one goes about shaving brake pads? I don't think I can just put it on a belt sander...





1-1.5mm left of pad right there


Notice the two different end links. Don't think it's suppose to be this way.


Also decided to hit up a car show on Saturday. Needed an excuse to drive the X and observe the tire/wheel fitment.

Do those tires rub on your fenders?

Sduff@Composites said:

Do those tires rub on your fenders?

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ask me next week. track day is this wknd and that will tell.

Also, DF advertises this will allow the factory fender liners to be installed. They do install but if you're running any kind of mild or semi-aggressive fitment I can't find anyway to keep the mounting tabs w/o rubbing. I think the tabs have to be cut off.

Fitment is 95% of OEM. Quite happy and impressed. My friend and owner of LTMW here in El Monte, CA performed the work. He just bought his NSX too.

This was right after mounting. He filled in the sidemarkers for me and very happy with that decision.


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btw the 235/275 NT-05s are installed on my "Hi Pad" Volk CE28Ns. I'll get the sizes and post later on. They're not Hellaflush or super aggressive fitment to allow me many more options on tire sizes and R-comps later on.

Volk Racing CE28n High Pad
[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]Front: 17x8 +38 Rear: 18x9.5 +40[/FONT]

Looks great. You also have a set of 18x8.5 fronts too that you'll be testing out? If cutting off the tabs how are you planning to clip the liner in?

Looks great Regan. LOVING the ce28n's!!!

Thanks guys!

You can sort of see the wider (bulging) front fenders here. I'm still fiddling with wheel sizing so give me some time to figure out an optimal setup.


I'm hot and cold on the DF fenders. I love that they now allow me more tire options (and this was the main reason for them). I love that they don't have the front sidemarker. I don't like that they have the more pronounced tire well crease and I don't like that they're FRP. You'll notice that crease in the photo next to the Ariel Atom above. Overall I'm glad I got them. Even if I wreck these I won't feel so bad. I already wrecked an OEM fender with 235s before. Can't run 235s on an aggressive offset AT ALL and with BBK the wheel options becomes very limited.

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Sduff@Composites said:

Looks great. You also have a set of 18x8.5 fronts too that you'll be testing out? If cutting off the tabs how are you planning to clip the liner in?

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Yes, I have 18x8.5 +32 (10mm H&R spacer and extended lugs installed to clear the caliper)

This is on a 215 tire so you'll notice the stretch. There's plenty of room.

RYU said:

Notice the two different end links. Don't think it's suppose to be this way.

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Top one is for the front, bottom one is for the rear. You should have four in total

Dimer said:

Top one is for the front, bottom one is for the rear. You should have four in total

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Thanks Dimer! Actually Dave confirmed its supposed to be this way. One side is for easier corner balancing adjustment.

LMR pointed this out to me yesterday by pointing me to the group buy thread. All is good! I can't wait until Buttonwillow this wknd!