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Wheel Spacers and Tire Sizes

Joined
28 April 2000
Messages
1,190
Location
SF Bay Area / Boston MA
As some of you know, I recently installed Eibach's and Konis... I like the new lower stance (I wouldn't mind lower.
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shoulda done H&Rs), but I notice that the rims are inside the body quite a bit. I'm now considering to put on 25mm axle spacers to fill out the wheel well. Andrie has these on his car using the stock rims like mine, and they look great! Though, he has H&R springs... I was wondering how many of you out there are using these spacers? If so, I'm interested to know how this affects the handling. Does it make it better because of the wider track? I also realize a lot of people with after-market rims and different size tires may be inherently causing this same effect already due to the rim offsets or something. I really can't afford new rims (I would love a set of TE-37s), but I just can't justify it yet. I'm planning to change my rear tires also to Nitto 555 255/40/17 as well... the 40 means 40% of 255 right? That would make the overall diameter slightly larger as well... this will probably affect the handling characterstics some more as well. I just was seeing if you guys had some comments on what I plan to do.
25mm spacers, stock size front tires, and slightly wider rear tires. Andrie never mentioned to me about the tires rubbing in the wheel well, so I imagine its ok.

One more thing, for those of you who have spacers... where did you get them? Andrie offered to help me get some from H&R at $120 an axle! I talked to a man in LA at www.wheelspacer.com ... some aluminum machinist and he can make them for me for $65 an axle. What kinds of concerns should I have before making the decision on which to buy?

[This message has been edited by kenjiMR (edited 01 June 2001).]
 
kenji,
DO NOT USE SPACERS!
Your safety should not be sacrificed for LOOKS.
If you put spacers on your NSX you are asking for problems. Sure you may not have any issues with rubbing but you are creating many more problems that are far more serious than that. Consider these points.

By using spacers you are pulling the wheel further away from the hub and axle which is putting more stress on the suspension, etc.
You are also creating more tension on lug nuts because now there is less of the lug threaded into the lug nut and you are stressing the lugs to the point of possibly sheering off. They are not designed to handle that amount of downward force. Put up with the look of your current wheels until you CAN afford new ones. Don't risk possible damage to your NSX/yourself just to save a few bucks.

Those of us who are using aftermarket wheels are doing so with the correct offsets. It varies by wheel width and manufacturer.

The 255/40-17 will help out with handling but remember to keep the diameters close to factory ride heights to avoid affecting the "performance" of your NSX.

Please somebody. Back me up on this before he makes a big mistake.
 
Please somebody. Back me up on this before he makes a big mistake.

Chris is correct.

Another point which Chris only vaguely refers to is the fact that with the spacers, you are no longer going to have the wheel mounted on the hub. This creates the possibility of vibration caused by the "lugcentric" rather than "hubcentric" mounting. This is explained in further detail in the FAQ section on "Wheel Tech".

Incidentally, 25 mm (about an inch) is a VERY LARGE spacer. Of course, if you're trying to achieve the "low rider" look, you might want an even larger one...
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Here you go. Scroll down to the part that says. "What about hub rings/adapters/spacers?" They even refer to the 25mm spacers you are wanting to use.

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/wheeltech.htm

nsxtasy,
That is hilarious. All I can think of when I hear the word "spacer" is low-rider. The ones that have the wheels sticking out of the wheel well about 8 inches.
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[This message has been edited by Chris W (edited 01 June 2001).]
 
I will like to pointed out something about this regard and also been the wheels my mainly business. First of all the word on this subject is incorrect, the correct word for that item is wheel adapter. When people talk about spacers, most people understand for the regular 3mm or 5mm that you put inside of the OEM studs before you put the wheel on the car. With the H&R wheel adapter, what happens is that you dont loose the hubcenter on you wheel because the adapter thus provide the correct center bore for any particular application. In this case of the NSX been the car 70.1mm front center bore and 64.1 rear which is pretty weird, this is the only car that I know that has different center bores, front and rear, Porshe since the old 911Turbo back in 1978 came with those wheels adapters standard on their cars.

In my particular case what I did having to get the wheels to the correct location due to the wider fenders was: Front H&R 25mm From the Integra Type R and the rear H&R 25mm from the Acura Legend, with that set up, I made sure to have the correct center bores for my wheels and therefore everything is within factory specs.

Finally if you want to go for it, there is no problem in running those adapters as long as you order the right ones to be hubcentric on you car, You can also have 3 choices from them 5mm 15mm 25mm. The 2 first ones are called DRS which is the spacer plus the lunger studs and hubcentric,and the final one which is the DRM,is the type that bolts to your OEM studs, and comes with the correct Center Bore also.

Here is the part number for the 25mm
DRM 25mm 5065700 Front 70.1CB
DRM 25mm 5065640 Rear 64.1CB


Regards
Enrique Thompson
Crazy4Cars Racing
H&R Panama Importer

[This message has been edited by pronto3000 (edited 02 June 2001).]
 
So is it safe for me to assume that what Chris W has been warning about to be a different issue than what Pronto2000 is refering to? Chris, I had planned to get longer studs to hold the tires on...
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I would be scared to be driving on like 4 nut threads...
If that is the case, it sounds like I have to bite the bullet and get the H&Rs to ensure I get the proper bore size. I have stock body, would 25mm be too wide?

[This message has been edited by kenjiMR (edited 02 June 2001).]
 
Originally posted by kenjiMR:
So is it safe for me to assume that what Chris W has been warning about to be a different issue than what Pronto2000 is refering to? Chris, I had planned to get longer studs to hold the tires on...
smile.gif
I would be scared to be driving on like 4 nut threads...
If that is the case, it sounds like I have to bite the bullet and get the H&Rs to ensure I get the proper bore size. I have stock body, would 25mm be too wide?

[This message has been edited by kenjiMR (edited 02 June 2001).]


Kenji: I have a customer here in Panama that has the same wheels as yours with the same 25mm and the car looks sweet. There is no need to buy longer studs since the DRM type adapters thus provide with new ones already installed on the adapters and with the OEM lenght. What you have to do is, take the wheels off, install the new drm with the new lugs supplied, and then the wheel over the adapter with your OEM lug nuts.

Regards
Enrique
Crazy4Cars Racing
H&R Panama Importer




[This message has been edited by pronto3000 (edited 02 June 2001).]
 
Hi Kenji,

Enrique is 200% right !
wink.gif


I use the H&R "wheel adapter" DRM 25mm on rear with no problems at all! The handling seems even better with the wider track !

On the other hand, I would never use wheel spacers which require longer studs !

Ciao
David
 
Kenji, H&R spacers are hubcentric, and comes with new studs. You just bolt them on, and drive away. I think Andrie would reply soon. He is one of the fastest guys around, and he has been using the biggest hulking spcers I have ever seen. He has no problems with them.


Forgot to mention, Porsche GT3 has 15mm spacers standard, and Porsche themselves sell spacers for retrofit.
------------------
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/maomaosnsxmodclub
My club for infos on my NSX.

[This message has been edited by maomaonsx (edited 02 June 2001).]
 
Enrique is right. Except he got the part the other way around. Integra type R's for the rear, and the Legend's for the front
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Originally posted by Chris W:

By using spacers you are pulling the wheel further away from the hub and axle which is putting more stress on the suspension, etc.
Up to here u are correct.

You are also creating more tension on lug nuts because now there is less of the lug threaded into the lug nut and you are stressing the lugs to the point of possibly sheering off. They are not designed to handle that amount of downward force. Put up with the look of your current wheels until you CAN afford new ones. Don't risk possible damage to your NSX/yourself just to save a few bucks.

The H&R spacers are hubcentric, and provide an extension hubcentric ring, so the wheels rested on the hub (while it is not bolted to specified torque). Using longer studs doesn't necessary put extra stress on the studs. Using same torque spec, what holding the wheel to the car is friction provided by the wheel and the hub. Using same torqe spec (80 lb. ft. in this case) doesn't cause the studs to stress more than without a spacer.

But then the 25mm spacers H&R made is exactly like Enrique said. It is an adapter.


Those of us who are using aftermarket wheels are doing so with the correct offsets. It varies by wheel width and manufacturer.

What is the correct offset? Wheels are no rocket science. Most wheels are built for aesthetic use and are made to the size maximizing the possible room under the wheel well.

True different offset (which just a built in spacer) made the suspension work differently (harder). But we also get the better track, since it is wider, essentially lowered the center of gravity.


The 255/40-17 will help out with handling but remember to keep the diameters close to factory ride heights to avoid affecting the "performance" of your NSX.

This might not be true. it all depends on offset, rim width, tire pressure and the tire compounds itself.

255/40/17 on an 8.5" width rim, most likely will make the tread patch smaller than the 245/40/17 on the same width of rim.

Please somebody. Back me up on this before he makes a big mistake.
I would not even touch this one
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That said, I've been running my car with the 25mm spacer for more than 2 years, with total of more than 20 driving events with no problem whatsoever. Actually, I find it handle better. I don't do it for looks, I do it to get better load transfer, which is essentially the same goal as lowering the center of gravity.

Porsche uses spacers for the longest time.



[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 27 August 2001).]
 
I was talking about wheel "spacers" in my original comment. The fact that the H&R wheel "adapters" are hubcentric and come with longer studs helps to ease my mind about the whole issue. I was trying to point out that if Kenji were considering spacers that were not hubcentric they would be putting quite a bit of stress on the studs. I now understand how they "could" be safer since most of the weight is supported by the hub and not the studs.

What is the correct offset?

I would have to say the correct offset allows proper clearance for things such as wheel well and brake calipers while at the same time prevents undue stresses on suspension components while maintaining correct steering geometry established by Honda for this vehicle. Wheels manufactured for the NSX with these sort of concerns in mind shouldn't require the use of spacers or adapters or whatever you want to call them. They are made to FIT the car properly without them. I've never seen a warning tag on a wheel that said, "Requires 25mm spacer not included".
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Companies that manufacture these parts are in the business to make money and will never talk badly about the use of them. They will continue to sell them to the public until someone gets killed and they are forced to recall them. On the other hand, wheel manufacturers are never going to suggest using them simply due to liability reasons. For that same reason many tire/wheel shops will not even install wheels that require spacers and may possibly void the warranty on the wheel if something was to go wrong. These may just be excuses but there has to be some reason they are trying to cover their ass. These are the things that make me go "Hmmmmm".

Wheels are no rocket science.

I'm sorry to say but I feel there is a "science" when it comes to making wheels because there is no "STANDARD" when it comes to offsets. That is why you can't just go to Pep Boys, pick a wheel off the shelf that looks shiny and cool, and stick it on your NSX, or any car for that matter, and expect it to fit.

True different offset (which just a built in spacer) made the suspension work differently (harder). But we also get the better track, since it is wider...

Call me an idiot but I'm not about to sacrifice the structural integrity of my suspension components or, for that matter, my own personal safety by choosing wheels with improper offsets just so I can, how did you put it? "get the better track, since it is wider". Kenji, it sounds like I've been outnumbered on this whole issue. I guess I wasn't aware that Porsche uses them also. In that case they have to be safe, right? It's a good thing you've already replaced your springs and shocks. You would have needed them sooner or later. You may want to look into some aftermarket sway bars too.

I really can't afford new rims (I would love a set of TE-37s), but I just can't justify it yet.

Can't justify it? The point I'm getting at is with all the money you are spending for these spacers and suspension components you could have bought the TE-37's you wanted in the first place.

Andrie,
It's obvious that your priorities are different than mine because you race your NSX on the track and I don't. By the way nsxtasy, thanks for having the cajones to come forward and support me. For those here that share my opinions and don't wish to chime in I respect your decision to remain anonymous. The theory "wider is better" is of no concern to me when I go to make a turn at an intersection. My only concern is that I make it home safely without my wheels falling off.
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I'm out.

[This message has been edited by Chris W (edited 03 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Chris W (edited 03 June 2001).]
 
Originally posted by Chris W:
...... I've never seen a warning tag on a wheel that said, "Requires 25mm spacer not included". Companies that manufacture these parts are in the business to make money and will never talk badly about the use of them. They will continue to sell them to the public until someone gets killed and they are forced to recall them. On the other hand, wheel manufacturers are never going to suggest using them simply due to liability reasons. For that same reason many tire/wheel shops will not even install wheels that require spacers and may possibly void the warranty on the wheel if something was to go wrong. These may just be excuses but there has to be some reason they are trying to cover their ass. These are the things that make me go "Hmmmmm".

Not only Porsche makes them and recommends them for certain appplications.

BBS, one of the oldest wheels manufacturer, supliers for F1, Ferrari challenge races and much more. Have this writing on their catalog for ceratin models of their wheels "Requires special hardware kit containing spacer, and longer lug bolts at an additional cost fo $25 per wheel." (well they have 3 different prices, but I just posted one of them)
I can scan that from the catalog if u like.


Can't justify it? The point I'm getting at is with all the money flying out of your ass for these spacers and suspension components you could have bought the TE-37's you wanted in the first place.

Chris, I enjoy good arguments, we can always learn new things from other people. But comments like this is really not necessary.

Every people are entitled to their own opinion. However, I 've been in this industry for a while, as well as Enrique, so we might know a thing or two. Sorry if I came a bit harsh, which is not my intention.
 
It is not my intention to come across harsh either. (I have since rephrased the previous comment in which you have quoted). That comment was unnecessary.

It is obvious by the knowledge, both you and Enrique present, that you both definitely do know your business and it is not my intention to dispute that. I was merely voicing my opinion on subject matter that I have obtained info about in the form of articles posted and cannot speak from personal experience, or lack of, as I have never used such devices. Whenever I have mentioned spacers to others in the past their faces seem to cringe at the mere thought of using them. It is with my limited experience reading articles and hearing of concerns for these products that I am formulating my opinions. With all due respect, I felt I was looking out for the best interest of Kenji.

If I have offended you in any way I do apologize. I do appreciate the knowledge you share with us here at NSX Prime and always look forward to learning more from guys like you with each and every visit. I will chalk this one up as a learning experience.
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Peace.
 
I'm almost afraid to jump in here but here goes. It seems like simple engineering. The further away the wheel is from the hub, the greater stress will be inflicted on the whole system. Cantilever effect. Just an example, imagine if the wheel was 5 feet from the hub. It would probaly snap off the car at the weak link in the system. Now these spacer are only 25mm wide so its not 5 feet, but it still would be a percentage of that 5 feet. A very small one but still it seems to me it would be a risk. I might be wrong here I not a automobile engineer.
 
LOL, Chris W, before I read this post on Sunday I made 2 180 degree decisions... I'm just aboiut to email Andrie to abort ordering the spacers for me, which I just requested yesterday... I've decided to see how much money I can get by selling my 94 stock rims and pay the extra cash to pick up some bronze TE-37s. After I get the TE-37s I plan to powder coat those a different color.

Andrie and Chris W, I really appreciate all your time and concerns for the upgrading of my car.
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Andrie, I will let you know again in the future if my TE-37 idea and/or other rim configuration works out or not. I'm assuming the TE-37s can be purchased with a certain offset which will provide a better track and fill out the wheel wells more completely.

[This message has been edited by kenjiMR (edited 03 June 2001).]
 
Wow, this thread is a great example of why we all need to be very careful about what we say, and how much stock we put in what we read here. Obviously the forum should be open to all views, but perhaps those who realize that their knowledge of a subject is limited or non-existent would do better to pose their thoughts as questions rather than rash statements followed by a qualifier. I don’t mean to sound critical, I’m just genuinely concerned about distinguishing the wheat from the chaff.

For my .02 worth, I see absolutely no basis for concerns about compromising “structural integrity” or increasing loads on suspension components with a 25mm spacer. In that regard, the spacer is no different than a one inch wider wheel with all of the extra added to the offset. That’s probably the single most common mod by auto sport enthusiasts and has never been questioned. (super-wide low riders excepted) Granted, front-drive cars have additional issues with such changes, but that’s irrelevant here.

The only safety/reliability issue is whether the use of such spacers shifts the shear loads from the hub to the studs. According to some of the more knowledgeable posts, that need not be a problem on the NSX if you obtain the correct parts.
 
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