Damm, really glad to see you and the car made it through that.
Great job for not giving up and getting back out there !
Great job for not giving up and getting back out there !
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So this is how it starts...
- Thread starter bngl3rt
- Start date
I'm so jealous of your "home" track.
great way to learn smoothness.Also magnifies mistakes but at safer speeds.learn about the pluses minus of the rain line.
- Joined
- 25 February 2012
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- 2,166
I keep hearing people refer to the "rain line" but no amount of research has revealed a video or explanation of how it differs from the "dry line"... all I can figure out is that you should stay off the painted curbs because they'll be really slick (whereas you clip them in the dry to get the tightest apex), but I also read that all the rubber laid down on the dry line becomes very slippery when wet too - so do you completely stay off the dry line to avoid that??
My understanding is that the rain line often tracks around the outside of the corner, avoiding the apex completely. But it may differ for each corner of a given track.
The books mentioned above have been good reading for me. I particularly like the Ultimate Speed Secrets book.
The books mentioned above have been good reading for me. I particularly like the Ultimate Speed Secrets book.
The rain line will differ from track to track, turn to turn, condition to condition.
IN GENERAL, the rain line might use a later apex, slower apex speed, even outside of the normal "clipping point", with a straighter exit to maximize acceleration while minimizing understeer (steering wheel is straighter), and power oversteer (again, steering wheel is straighter). That said . . .
But realistically, it's going to depend on conditions: where water is pooling; whether the surface of the turns is asphalt or concrete, especially on tracks that have been patched with concrete at apexes (I have found concrete to be unusually slippery at the tracks I've been at, Homestead and Sebring); how much rubber is down; how old the pavement is (is it "polished" on the traditional racing line?); how much it's rained and whether there is standing water; how quickly the line is drying when it does stop raining. It usually changes lap to lap.
I used to absolutely hate tracking in the rain and used to avoid it. Then I actually went out in it during HPDE. I found MUCH less traffic, in fact, one session I went out during a passing shower and saw only one other car in 30 minutes of driving (everyone else was waiting for the shower to pass so they could go out next session which was likely to be dry), and only when that car was on a parallel straightaway. It was like the entire course worker crew was there only for me. Got into a rhythm, almost a zen experience, and was really able to concentrate on a whole host of skills including where to look, how to be exceptionally smooth, how to catch the car, experimenting all over the track to find grip. It might be the best track driving session I've ever done, not from a speed standpoint but from advancing my understanding of driving dynamics, car control, and just plain being one with the car and FUN.
IN GENERAL, the rain line might use a later apex, slower apex speed, even outside of the normal "clipping point", with a straighter exit to maximize acceleration while minimizing understeer (steering wheel is straighter), and power oversteer (again, steering wheel is straighter). That said . . .
But realistically, it's going to depend on conditions: where water is pooling; whether the surface of the turns is asphalt or concrete, especially on tracks that have been patched with concrete at apexes (I have found concrete to be unusually slippery at the tracks I've been at, Homestead and Sebring); how much rubber is down; how old the pavement is (is it "polished" on the traditional racing line?); how much it's rained and whether there is standing water; how quickly the line is drying when it does stop raining. It usually changes lap to lap.
I used to absolutely hate tracking in the rain and used to avoid it. Then I actually went out in it during HPDE. I found MUCH less traffic, in fact, one session I went out during a passing shower and saw only one other car in 30 minutes of driving (everyone else was waiting for the shower to pass so they could go out next session which was likely to be dry), and only when that car was on a parallel straightaway. It was like the entire course worker crew was there only for me. Got into a rhythm, almost a zen experience, and was really able to concentrate on a whole host of skills including where to look, how to be exceptionally smooth, how to catch the car, experimenting all over the track to find grip. It might be the best track driving session I've ever done, not from a speed standpoint but from advancing my understanding of driving dynamics, car control, and just plain being one with the car and FUN.
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- 25 February 2012
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Thanks all for your tips. It was slow but smooth and fine. I didn't ever push hard enough to have to "catch" the car - in fact I've never had to catch it except for the one time (previously documented in this thread) when I completely failed to. I was mostly at around 1/4 throttle and peaked at about 1/2 during the wet sessions.
I guess this gets back to the philosophy of doing track days question. Especially after my near-miss (which could just as easily have flipped the car when the MotoGP gulch swallowed the tires) I am extremely reluctant to push, and I scrub speed when I feel the car moving around at all, even though I know that some moving around is normal and healthy and the TCS isn't lighting up (yes I am running with it on for now). I wonder what the secret is to discovering the confidence to try for faster times again after an incident like that. In a track day of six 20-minute sessions, most of them dry, I basically gained one second over my previous best time (2:05 -> 2:04) because I don't have the balls to push harder.
At other tracks I have had to counter steer a bit when powering out of corners but at Laguna Seca the track is so narrow and the walls are so close I don't know if I'm willing to experiment...
Here is my corkscrew rain line (windows up! photo credit gotbluemilk.com):
I guess this gets back to the philosophy of doing track days question. Especially after my near-miss (which could just as easily have flipped the car when the MotoGP gulch swallowed the tires) I am extremely reluctant to push, and I scrub speed when I feel the car moving around at all, even though I know that some moving around is normal and healthy and the TCS isn't lighting up (yes I am running with it on for now). I wonder what the secret is to discovering the confidence to try for faster times again after an incident like that. In a track day of six 20-minute sessions, most of them dry, I basically gained one second over my previous best time (2:05 -> 2:04) because I don't have the balls to push harder.
At other tracks I have had to counter steer a bit when powering out of corners but at Laguna Seca the track is so narrow and the walls are so close I don't know if I'm willing to experiment...
Here is my corkscrew rain line (windows up! photo credit gotbluemilk.com):
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The next step is easy, you need to find a track that lets you have a larger margin of error so you feel more comfortable. You are lucky as you have some great options out there. Also a qualified coach can get you to do things you did not know you could do, then the rest is up to you.
Dave
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- 19 January 2011
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- 715
Your brain is still in the 'getting comfortable' phase and you took a step or two back with your spin. shake it off and don't concentrate on going pace right now. Insted concentrate on remembering what you are doing on one corner or one section of the track. This starts the data recorder working and fast tracks building muscle memory for driving at speed. Comfort at speed is in direct relation to how much you brain can do automatically, the more the background programming can handle is all the more your thinking brain can spare thoughts on. Things like feeling for grip and improving braking points and lines. When you describe "Pushing to go faster" there is no way your thinking brain can focus on as many things as it would take to to do that safely and consistently.
Stay at around 6/10th for a while on track. build the receptors in your brain then when you get good instruction more of it will actually stick. TAKE VIDEO! and watch it, Everyday take 5 min to mentally drive a lap of Laguna while at your desk at work, eyes closed remember every detail, shift /clutch steering, the whole deal. now do it at pace. Next time you go out you'll be more settled and able to remember and feel more of whats happening becasue your not reacting to it but comparing it to previous experience.
Id recommend you turn off your traction control, itll do all sorts of stuff unexpectedly that'll mess you up as you start get quicker and your tires are up to temp and sticky.
You should come out to ButtonWillow some time soon with a few of the socal NSX guys. Id be happy to give you ride alongs in my car too get a feel for it.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...willow-13CW-w-Speed-Ventures-on-Saturday-4-19
Stay at around 6/10th for a while on track. build the receptors in your brain then when you get good instruction more of it will actually stick. TAKE VIDEO! and watch it, Everyday take 5 min to mentally drive a lap of Laguna while at your desk at work, eyes closed remember every detail, shift /clutch steering, the whole deal. now do it at pace. Next time you go out you'll be more settled and able to remember and feel more of whats happening becasue your not reacting to it but comparing it to previous experience.
Id recommend you turn off your traction control, itll do all sorts of stuff unexpectedly that'll mess you up as you start get quicker and your tires are up to temp and sticky.
You should come out to ButtonWillow some time soon with a few of the socal NSX guys. Id be happy to give you ride alongs in my car too get a feel for it.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...willow-13CW-w-Speed-Ventures-on-Saturday-4-19
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That has to be one of the coolest rolling shots I've ever seen.
- Joined
- 25 February 2012
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- 2,166
Very, very tempting. Work is crazy right now and I'd have to drive down the night before but I'll try and make it happen.
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Heh, thanks. Get a load of this stance.
I'm jealous man! I still have a few things I need to do to get ready for the track. Finally got a new exhaust that is cat friendly since my last one was a no go for LS. Just need to put in that new wheel stud, flush the coolant and I should be good. Then we can get a pic like this............
^you guys need some wheel spacers! 
Congrats! Glad you guys had fun.
Congrats! Glad you guys had fun.
I would say +1 to turning off TCS. It's just not fast enough in the NSX. It'll either screw you up or slow you down. I know it's counter-intuitive but you'll likely be safer on the track with it off too. I think opinions will vary on this...
I have 2013 BRZ that I daily and have tracked a few times. It's a pretty modern in it's stability control and works well. It keeps me out of trouble in the streets and in the rain when i'm only focused about half as much as I am at the track and really driving in a relaxed state. You're just not as fast on the road when you've had a long day at work. However, at the track I tried turning this on. It was still a hindrance. One time I my car did a complete 180 when the ass end swung around unexpectedly. It was almost as if I was expecting the stability control to interfere and there was a glitch and it didn't. I was faster and SAFER when I turned it off for the rest of the day.
Btw.. some people confuse Traction Control vs. Stability Control. I did...
I have 2013 BRZ that I daily and have tracked a few times. It's a pretty modern in it's stability control and works well. It keeps me out of trouble in the streets and in the rain when i'm only focused about half as much as I am at the track and really driving in a relaxed state. You're just not as fast on the road when you've had a long day at work. However, at the track I tried turning this on. It was still a hindrance. One time I my car did a complete 180 when the ass end swung around unexpectedly. It was almost as if I was expecting the stability control to interfere and there was a glitch and it didn't. I was faster and SAFER when I turned it off for the rest of the day.
Btw.. some people confuse Traction Control vs. Stability Control. I did...
Don't tell me you're one of "them".OEM wheel spacing just as Mother Honda intended
Wider = better. Car will be more stable and roll less.
Pre-02 ABS and TCS is garbage. I wouldn't run it and you can't compare it to a modern cars system.
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Btw.. what really helps me is to have a "pre-flight" checklist. I usually write on a piece of blue tape a checklist stuck on my dashboard. I think Willem does the same.
Folks can add to this as needed.
On-Track
1. Gloves
2. Helmet strap
3. Seat belt
4. TCS off (it's a bitch to turn it off at the track when at speed. it won't let you until you're at a calm state of driving)
5. GoPro
Pitting Off-Track (I have yet to start implementing this, kind of lazy)
1. Tire Temps (if you don't do a cooldown lap)
2. Tire Pressure
3. Ambient temp/track temp
4. Other notes
Folks can add to this as needed.
On-Track
1. Gloves
2. Helmet strap
3. Seat belt
4. TCS off (it's a bitch to turn it off at the track when at speed. it won't let you until you're at a calm state of driving)
5. GoPro
Pitting Off-Track (I have yet to start implementing this, kind of lazy)
1. Tire Temps (if you don't do a cooldown lap)
2. Tire Pressure
3. Ambient temp/track temp
4. Other notes
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Temps before pressures and NO COOLDOWN lap!
nope......that was a very old pic but the only pic i could find of me and another NSX at LS. Back then I was using the stock wheels but now have my RPF1s with wider and stickier rubber..........
Fixed!
Like I said.. I get a little lazy sometimes haha. When i'm near as fast as you guys i'll be looking for every little thing to help improve times.
