So this is how it starts...

I took my NSX to the track for the first time this weekend (having never been on track before in every car) and hoooly moly - I'm hooked!

And I realize now this is how it starts with the mods - I used to think I was pretty happy with the NSX the way it was, and that it was fast enough for the street (true) but when you get left for dead by a Cayman in the straights... well... you start browsing SoS website with a whole different perspective, let's put it that way.

Skip to 11:40 to see "why Ben needs a supercharger"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHR7MDAJKqU

I have a new appreciation for my car and a huge motivation to build my own skills now. Look forward to spending more time in this section of the forum!

Congrats and welcome to the GFCP Club (Go Fast Crack Pipe). By the way a Cayman S is a very good match for a stock NSX, very similar performance envelope.

I wish I could do what you are doing now, starting from scratch with a great car like the NSX. You have the chance to do this track thing the right way and learn from the rest of us that did it the wrong way.

First DO NOT PUT A SUPERCHARGER ON YOUR CAR. Yes I am yelling this. Do not put any power adders on your car yet. Spend your money on a driving school or private tutor and lots of track time, if you can find someone with a NSX background great but what you are looking to learn first is the proper skills to drive a car at its limits. The NSX even in stock form is a very fast car in the right hands, it is a very easy car to learn on and when driven to the 90% range is forgiving enough to be safe but still teach you what not to do. Second stay on street tires, good tires and brakes are all that is needed at this point, the rest is all YOU. Keep video of all you track days, if you do the school or tutor get a good external mic and audio recorder that you can record what you and the instructor are saying and sinc it back to the video, get Harry's Lap Timer and start a log book for your car to track your progress. Do at least 1 track day a month, if you are going to different tracks study as much video as you can before you get there, you want to learn the track in your head before you drive in your car.

Resist the desire to add parts to your car untill you have moved to the intermediate or maybe even the advance group. You want to improve the driver and not the car, you can do a more track friendly alignment but I would stop there untill you have learned the basics.

This is a very fun and expensive hobby so make sure you know what you are getting into, you have been warned.

Dave

Dave, thanks much for the wise words. I'm lucky I have access to folks like you through this forum who have been there done that and can share the do's and don'ts.

Hopefully if I upgrade myself rather than the car I'll be able to keep up with that Cayman S sometime in the future. And good tip about the street tires. I will try and get the mic/sound situation sorted out - I just got the go pro the day before the track day and didn't have a lot of time to play with it or load up on accessories, just had to strap it on and go.

Nice run! I noticed in your video title, HOD = Hooked on Driving? If so, I'm also properly hooked, and would love to run with another NSX, if you're planning on going back. PM me and perhaps we can see if any of our days intersect - I'm booked into quite a few already.

I've also got a video of my '94 NSX getting left behind on the straights by a Cayman so don't feel too bad ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZYpmBZ1ueg

Nice lap! Way to use the kerbs fully. I'm still learning how to do that...

Next one for me should be Hooked On Driving A group at Laguna Seca 3/21. If you've never run with HOD I highly recommend coming - it's a great group.

bngl3rt said:

Hopefully if I upgrade myself rather than the car I'll be able to keep up with that Cayman S sometime in the future.

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Since you are on the West Coast here is my best recommendation for a fast path to driving bliss and running down almost any driver in a Cayman S. This will not be cheap, but will be the cheapest way to get to the next level and learn from one of the best resources in your back yard. You will learn more in a single weekend from a pro level driver than almost any number of club level instructors in a season of track days, there are some good club level instructors but most of them are guys like you that started as a novice and learned what they know from another club level instructor, most make the move to instructor because they have the correct temperment for instructing and are safe in the eyes of the event hosts. Some do it simply because they get a discount or free track time if they instruct. Keep this in mind when your instructor asks to drive your car so he knows how to explain how to drive your car.

I would call and schedule a time for as a minimum a meet and great with Erik Messley in Huntington Beach, he is the real deal when it comes to auto racing just about anything, but he knows the NSX from a chassis setup and a drivers perspective. If you and nsx-sf can work together and share Erik at the same track events you will be able to split his fees and expenses. Last week at COTA three of the Viper guys split his chassis setup and driving coaching fees to make it much more resonable on each driver.

Here is what Erik can do for you, he can recommend and do any upgrades you are ready for when you are ready for them. He will teach you the correct techniques and terminology to improve your driving and your setup. He can and I recommend this greatly drive you around the track at about 90% of what the car is able to do, this time on your home track will now be your target goal. This rules out all the normal driver excuses, you know what your car can do in the right hands, he will know how to get the most out of you and the car safely. He has one of the best temperments of any tutor I have ever seen and is just a fun guy to hang out with as well. If he has the time and you guys can work together to keep the cost down I would jump all over this if I was in your shoes. You will be able to progress at a much more rapid pace, and not have to relearn things to drop the bad habbits you will otherwise learn on your own.

If you decide to get a hold of Erik tell him Dave from St. Louis recommended you call, and if you really want to make him happy set your meet and great for around lunch time and offer to pick up SubWay for him. I have his standing order seared into my head as for a week straight he had the same sandwich every day. I can PM you his contact info if you guys decide to make the move and his sandwich order.

Dave

Agree with Dave! Always wise words from this man.

If you're on Facebook I can add you to the SoCal FB NSX Track Days page. There's a growing contingent of local NSX guys who drive their cars hard and know the mods necessary to survive a hot cali track day. More importantly, we're not out there to compete with anyone except ourselves. Yes, we tend to share Subway as well for some reason lol.

If you're like me your car is certainly faster than you as opposed to most professional racing drivers where they are likely faster than their cars. It's easier to drive an NA NSX on the track but not sure if it's more fun. We have a couple of really good/fast drivers here (Ryneen & illWillem) for the most part their car is stock (powerwise) but they are significantly faster than me, and i'm on 7psi of boost. I'm catching up guys!!! Give me a couple of years.

Congrats on getting bit by the track bug.. or should I say.. I'm sorry. It's going to be expensive!

That would be great if you could add me RYU. And yes I know about the heat - getting away with it for now because it was 50F at the track this past weekend but I know 105F July days are coming... already shopping for a ducted hood haha.

Great Info above.
I hope my engine is the last thing I ever modify. It's bullet proof and perfect for my level of driving.

Aside from instruction and seat time, the most dramatic mod for me was a harness system because it holds me in place so I can steer and operate the pedals. Some say a harness system is the very first mod and I agree.

It's also like strapping the nsx on like a back pack - talk about feeling connected.

With the all the advise above, you'll:

Drive with the caman without additional horsepower
Pass lot's of higher HP cars
Have an engine that lasts
And have extra money for track time, instruction and maybe tastefull suspension/brake mods

bngl3rt said:

... already shopping for a ducted hood haha.

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I know it is hard to resist buying shiny bits to put on our cars but the NSX will handle the heat just fine in stock form for your first year while you develope your skills. You will most likely only manage to use 70-75% of the cars ability unless your just a natural. Keep your spends to the important things for a beginner, maintain the car with fresh fluids, new Max Performance STREET tires (NT-05, DirezzaII, you may need a second set of wheels to make these tires fit), upgrade brake pads, and brake cooling ducts (buy them or make them they are cheap). That is all you need to do to the car. The amount you are thinking about spending on a hood will get you more seat time and a day with a Pro coach, the hood will not have any effect on your lap times and at the level you will be pushing the car may only get you 5 degrees cooler than without a vented hood. If you must buy parts for the car you can spend whatever you want on safety items, and NO a turbo or supercharger is not a safety item.

I know this is hard to do as you want to make improvements to your car as you improve but the car needs to come later, if you change the car and the driver you have no way of knowing if you have improved or if it was just the car. The goal is to improve the driver then the car. Done this way you will be a much better driver in the end, and will be able to take full advantage of every performance mod you add to the car later.

Later down the road, one other little trick, as you progress and feel like you can not make any more improvments in your driving ability get out of the NSX and track any other car if only for a weekend you will learn another complete skill set as soon as you change what you are comfortable with.

I hate to be the party pooper, but I have been tracking for over 15 years in some form or another and in a NSX from almost the begining and what I did was the wrong aproach for me and most drivers. It was the most expensive way to reach the level I am at now, and left me with a lot of bad habits that I am still learning to undo. I started in autocross (bad habits will be learned here), moved to HPDE's with a stock NSX for two years made very few changes over those two years but I should have changed nothing and just learned to drive. Next and here is where I really screwed up, I sold my mostly stock NSX and bought a fully track prepped NSX. It had everything, headers, blower, BBK, Aero, Harnesses, Non-compliant stuff, Coil over shocks, adjustable track rate sway bars, light weight clutch, and R-Comp tires. It was the SH*T, only I was not and was no where near ready for this step. The car was so far above my abilities I learned almost nothing for the next few years. The car was one big bandaid for all my weaknesses as a driver. The lap times dropped and I thaught I was a god on the track, I was shaving 10 to 20 seconds off my best times at every track I went to. Guys that were faster than me were now just little dots in my rear view mirror, it felt great and I thaught I was making huge progress. The problem was the car was what improved and while I was only able to drive my first car at 80% of its potencial and had not learned to drive any higher, I did the same thing in the new car. I could only drive it to about 80% of its potencial. While the new cars potencial was much higher than the old cars, my abilities were stagnant. I then started changing this car looking for even better lap times, I spent more money found a few more seconds had more fun then hit a plateau. For the next two years I changed a lot more stuff and never found any more time.

Every change I made to the car was only done to mask a short comming I had as a driver, you can only mask them for a while then one day you sit in your passenger seat with a club level hot shoe driving your car and realize that you have been on the wrong path. Then you sit next to a Pro Level driver and you want to slap yourself in the face. I have not wasted a lot of money (that is not true, but I had a lot of fun) but I have wasted a lot of time. I could be a much better driver than I am today and I still would of had just as much fun. In the group of guys I run with now I see the same mistakes happening, guys spending crazy amounts of money on tires that last a weekend, buying motors, performance mods, and $8,000 shocks chasing the ultimate lap time. For the last three years I have changed very little on my car, mainly the alignment, and have focused my efforts on finding time by improving me and relearning the bad habits that took years to learn. I have made improvements and can honestly say I am a better driver today than I was three years ago, I have a long way to go but I am on the right path now. The skills I am learning now will translate into any car I drive the changes you make to your car will only help your car.

Dave

I'm in the same boat as the OP and recently I came to the same conclusion outlined above by you experienced folk (largely as a result of prior posts in Prime). I feel fortunate to benefit from your experiences, thank you.

I have a question: what bad habits does autocross foster and do you think there's a way to avoid them?

I think I essentially made Dave type the same thing twice, but because he did, I am starting to truly absorb the zen of it. Improve the driver then the car. Om.

Thanks again Dave.

I make Caymen S and many others a small dot in my mirrors with my NSX.

jwmelvin said:

I'm in the same boat as the OP and recently I came to the same conclusion outlined above by you experienced folk (largely as a result of prior posts in Prime). I feel fortunate to benefit from your experiences, thank you.

I have a question: what bad habits does autocross foster and do you think there's a way to avoid them?

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Everything about autocross is agressive, brake inputs, steering inputs, and thaught process. You have about 5 min to walk and learn a course then 45 sec to drive and perfect it. The main bad habits I picked up was to shuffle steer, stab the brakes, and to jerk the wheel on turn in. Things happen much slower on an autocross course so you can get away with these things. You generally do not learn to look far enough ahead and focus on a single corner at a time.

On a road course you can study the track using video and track maps, you can dissect a corner and understand what the car will do before you actually do it, then in a 20 min session you can work on that corner 10-15 times untill you have it down, then you start to link your corners, then sectors of the track then the entire track. It is a process to learn the corners then the track, autocross you just sort of chuck it in there and try not to hit any cones. Untill you learn to brake down the corners of a road course and understand how the car reacts you are just reacting not anticipating. Being able to anticipate is way more important than reacting. At road course speeds reacting is often too late. At my age the reaction times are not what they were when I was 20 years old, so I have to use my head more than my hands. Another good thing about learning this corner concept vs the track itself is that once you know how to put the car through a certain type of corner when you go to a new track you know what to do already. You have been through that type of corner on another track and it carries over to the new track. The really fast guys can see a track layout and brake it down into a string of corners and hit consistant lap times very quickly, then adjust their line for a quicker time.

Dave

Eric info:
My phone is: Seven one Four, 713- nine zero nine six. or you can always directly contact me via email at : [email protected]

if I were you, PM Billy Johnson and schedule a lesson from him...learn from the best, you don't worry about the rest.:biggrin:

Thank you Dave, that all makes sense regarding pitfalls of autocross.

Regarding hiring a coach, do they generally have established relationships with a track, so this would be outside of a normal HPDE? I guess my awareness of track-time opportunity is limited to HPDE and I'd like to understand other options.

The most cost effective way to hire a coach to have him out at one of your normal HPDE events. If you your group usually runs three to four run groups that gives you the opportunity to find two to three others drivers willing to share the cost of the coach. Not all coaches will let you share his services but if he will then you can cut your individual costs by a 1/3 if you get two other guys involved. The issue is you need two other drivers that are at different skill levels so you can take advantage of the different run groups.

Dave

I'm going to interject the "other side" of DDozier's arguments. While I agree 100% with what he's saying I chose a different route.

Yes, the urge to mod is strong with many of us. I gain a lot of happiness and joy from developing my own mods as well as utilizing well engineered parts from others. If I want to improve just the driver, me, then i'd have just bought a Miata (which is always a consideration especially after something breaks on the NSX). I subscribe to "Life is too short" and I try to make the most of it. My car is a hell of a lot faster than me but now i'm at a point where I've just about modded all I want to mod on the car and have reached a balance of street car vs. track car that i'm happy with.

I'm in the process of learning to drive my car fast. I'm now in on a stable platform with a car that's fun as hell on the street (where I still do 70% of my driving) and capable on the track. I don't expect to change the car much in the next few years. This way i'm not always chasing the perfect setup and can make minute incremental changes here and there. The big improvements will be in my driving and skills. I have a lot of car to catch up on.

Knowing me, I would not have been happy with a stock'ish NSX even if I was a great driver like Billy Johnson.

Dave is 100% correct. I have bad habits that the my car seems to encourage. I have more power than I need. I have more brakes than I need but in terms of fun level... it's SUPER HIGH... that's the trick. I encourage fun. Do it safely!

Ultimately, it depends on the person and what makes them happy. Learning how to maximize momentum driving might do it for you. If that's the case, there's not much you need to do to your NSX as it sits now.

DDozier nails it. Dont go crazy. Just get seat time. I know people hear that a lot but its misunderstood why this is.

When you start tracking, the first few times out there are sort of a blur, "what did I pack and where, gotta run to the drivers meeting, remember to turn on the go pro, dont forget to drop off the transponder, wtf is CEL 22.." You brain is seeing the day through an adrenaline haze. When you get in the car your excited, anxious, competitive; and that what makes it so much fun.
Its also what makes it difficult for you to sort out the details about your actual driving. Its like watching skinamax though a blocked cable box when your 12. You get the idea of whats happening though a fog, but its still pretty far off.

When you start to go more and more you get settled mentally, your bandwidth and memory capacity goes up exponentially. You can start to remember and feel specifics and move to a more proactive mindset. My younger brother started tracking when he turned 16, hes a natural (lucky bastard) but i watched him go through the initial plunge. I spent time watching him run around like a chicken with its head cut off. after a while I would start to ask him stuff like, 'what lap was your fastest. how many laps did you do, whats your braking point there' at the start he had no idea of anything but after a few days of settling in he'd calmed down enough mentally to be able to answer. Only then did talking about stuff like braking technique or anything really actually start to get absorbed. Watch videos of f1 drivers or a le mans drivers talking to the engineers about a specific part of a specific corner after a 3 hour stint. Its amazing the details and clarity they can recall


Much if not all of driving fast is the small details, especially in the NSX. You can broadstrokes it but you will plateau and carry around bad bad habits. I suggest you read Speed Secrets, I remember reading it when I started tracking, I couldn't comprehend why there was a whole chapter dedicated to how to come off the brakes. It was something that i never thought about and couldn't tell you how I did it if you asked. Details. Adding power will put a fuzz over this type of thing. Start small, start slow, and the first few times out concentrate on being steady and consistent, Build the bandwith, gain confidence at pace remember the details.

Come out to ButtonWillow one of these days. Post up on the board if your planning a track day and the local guys will let you know if they can make it. Get some ride alongs if you can it really opens your eyes. Hope too see you out there soon.

I guess I'm halfway between Dave and Regan on this one. The only thing I am not willing to do is risk crashing the car. Writing off my childhood dream car would break my heart. (But using it for what it was meant to do, on a track, gives me great joy).

I am probably driving the car at 60% on track at the moment. I'm unwilling to go above about 75-80% because that's where you start really shrinking the margin of error and being one mistake away (instead of two mistakes away) from going off and flipping the car or putting it into a wall.

So in my view there are two ways to get faster... learn to carry more speed through the corners (dangerous) or make the car faster down the straights (expensive but relatively safe).

You can get incredible lap times out of a stock NSX by driving the balls off it. However when you're doing that you have very little "safety buffer". You can probably get those same lap times out of a supercharged NSX by making up time in the straights while driving with a bigger cushion between you and the limits of the car and your abilities.

Here's how I look at it.

Even though I practically doubled the power of my NSX, the chassis totally handled it like it was designed for it. Obviously I have wider and stickier tires, KW V3 and some other upgrades to help manage the supercar power.

Now having more power means I don't have to up and down shift as much.

It means that I don't have to stand on the gas pedal all the time.

Bottom line is that you now have "options" or whatever people call it nowadays.

You hit the nail on the head in terms of where I was coming from. I have zero desire to wreck my car. Even an "off" is sketchy enough. No one day at the track is fun enough to overcome a total loss of my car, not to mention myself. Though, seat time is the main thing that helps you move your 8/10ths comfort to a higher 8/10ths comfort. Even though you feel you've still got 2/10ths left in your i'm sure as you get more seat time your times will decrease and fun level continues.

So now, the inevitable discussion of a dedicated track car comes in haha. I'm still about 2-3yrs away and want to get me and my NSX under 2:05 at BW 13CW while driving 8/10ths. I feel like my car can do around 1:57 at least so i'll be plenty happy at 2:05. I'm at 2:09 now. 1:57 in my car is probably Billy's or Will's 8/10ths.

This is also why I like slower technical tracks like Streets of Willow. I'll probably like Chuckwalla too but i'm sure i'll have a shitty time at Big Willow only because of the Oh Shit factor.

Regan is about 3 track days away from a 2:05, he's being modest.

I Personally dont like going fast, I drove Big Willow on Sunday and pussy footed around the track all day. The car is MUCH faster than me on tracks like that. Thats what seperates pro drives from enthusiasts like myself i spent the day at 6/10th and still had fun. I dont think theres anything wrong with putting some decent suspension, brake fluid and pads. Modding like that is just natural when you are into cars. I just wouldn't be looking into super chargers right off the bat. I did all the longevity mods first, then suspension and finally areo. I never really felt the need to add power but im ALWAYS tinkering with something, that just comes with being a car guy. It should be said that being a 'car guy' and being a 'track guy' are not always one in the same. You can be a car guy that also tracks but you are always leaving some potential on the table out of fear or not being willing to compromise comfort or whatever for a few tenths. Just do what you are comfortable with and enjoy.

I've said it before and ill say it again though, the NSX has a HUGE target while driving on the track. Eveny one wants that video on their youtube "Honda civic passes NSX" or whatever, its just inevitable. Don't pay any attention and just enjoy driving your car how it was meant.

Yep. Well I'm running 2:29 around Thunderhill at the moment and internet research indicates a stock NSX on street tires *can* do 2:05 around there. But that's probably with 0% safety margin. So we'll see how close I can get to that before I start fxcking with the car.

We have lots of great tracks up here in NorCal and you guys have lots of great ones down there in SoCal as well. Sounds like all of these track legends that Dave is suggesting I learn from live down in SoCal... I'm guessing to have them come up and instruct on my home tracks would include covering travel expenses and accommodations $$$$ etc. But could still be worth it to skip over years of pain and club-level driving.

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illwillem said:

I've said it before and ill say it again though, the NSX has a HUGE target while driving on the track. Eveny one wants that video on their youtube "Honda civic passes NSX" or whatever, its just inevitable. Don't pay any attention and just enjoy driving your car how it was meant.

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It's hard as an enthusiast of the car who likes to run around claiming it's equivalent to certain modern cars... to then get passed by precisely that modern car your first time out on the track and being unable to keep up with it. Seriously, the video from 11:40 to about 15:00 is embarrassing as I push as hard as I comfortably can and the Cayman walks away.

RYU said:

You hit the nail on the head in terms of where I was coming from.....

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The real key is that the NSX is weak for TQ and it's delivery of TQ or it's powerband is linear, not flat like my other car.

NSX just begs for more and more.