RL 3.5 liter block for NSX?

[Accord-R]

Would the Acura 3.5 liter block be able to mount to the NSX heads? And I've heard that the C27 and C32 blocks were a little weaker than the C32B's (I'm assuming the C35 is similar to those Legend engines), if you could use the 3.5 liter block, what, if anything would need to be done to strngthen the block itself?

[Accord-R]

Lots of looks, no replies? Any one have any ideas? I went to the dealership today and they told me the RL block is kind of weak...they had an old lady with a blown motor, but it could have been like a freak thing.

[Hrant]

I can't comment on whether the 3.5 RL would work as an NSX engine but from what I am told from a very reputable Acura mechanic, the 3.5 RL engine iis in fact a very solid engine. I should know that as I drive one since 1996 with 73K logged miles on it and it has been absolutely trouble free .........

[ChrisK]

Same here, I can't comment on the RL/Legend block in an NSX, but from everythign I've heard that Legend/RL block in very strong. I'm not familiar with all the terms, but people have mentioned something about 6 bolt main bearings or something and that is unheard of in consumer applications.

[Juice]

My legend had 270K on the engine before I was rear ended. Only thing ever replaced was the clutch and all maintainables. I didn't pamper the thing, so what's that tell you?

[sjs]

Originally posted by Juice
My legend had 270K on the engine before I was rear ended. Only thing ever replaced was the clutch and all maintainables. I didn't pamper the thing, so what's that tell you?

Not all that much really. There's a big difference between going a million miles in stock configuration and being "strong" in the ways that count when building a high output engine. For example, the NSX engine uses a Titanium alloy for the rods so they can be strong despite their rather petit build. That light weight in turn allows for higher RPM. Similarly the crank looks surprising delicate, but quality forging and those light rods and pistons help make that possible. The valve train is similar in that the valve stems are quite small. Their light weight allows for higher RPM without excessively heavy springs, and the small stems mean less flow resistance. But they still have to be very strong and that costs $. It's the total package, and I doubt the sedan engines are at the same level. Not that you couldn't get them there with enough cash. I believe someone is already having custom cranks made for just such a project.

[Accord-R]

I wasn't really concerned with the internals...just the block itself, and possible the crankshaft. I plan on uning strengthened internals.

Originally posted by sjs
Not all that much really. There's a big difference between going a million miles in stock configuration and being "strong" in the ways that count when building a high output engine. For example, the NSX engine uses a Titanium alloy for the rods so they can be strong despite their rather petit build. That light weight in turn allows for higher RPM. Similarly the crank looks surprising delicate, but quality forging and those light rods and pistons help make that possible. The valve train is similar in that the valve stems are quite small. Their light weight allows for higher RPM without excessively heavy springs, and the small stems mean less flow resistance. But they still have to be very strong and that costs $. It's the total package, and I doubt the sedan engines are at the same level. Not that you couldn't get them there with enough cash. I believe someone is already having custom cranks made for just such a project.

[sjs]

Originally posted by Accord-R
I wasn't really concerned with the internals...just the block itself, and possible the crankshaft. I plan on uning strengthened internals.

I figured that, although you'd probably want a crank with a bit more stroke even if the NSX one would fit. But my response was directed at the statement I quoted above it. Not to be critical, just to point out that longevity of a stock engine doesn't necessarily mean it is a good candidate for modification.

That said, I too am interested in what swaps could be done to get a bit more displacement but several others are already working on that so I'll just sit back and wait.

[Accord-R]

I know TODA has a 3.4 liter kit...but I can only imagine the price of that. My thinking was that since the 3.5 RL had a C-series block, that the heads of the NSX might bolt up to this. THen custom pistons and rods could be made for the RL block, although the Crank shaft might remain an issue. It would be nice to have a 3,5 liter NSX motor with like 11.2:1 compression.

[fangtl]

If it does bolt up it will still require a lot more reserach to make the whole thing work, for example, which car's water pump are you going to use? How about the transmission? Headers, and at least 20 other things I can list off the top of my head. Is it an intriguing idea, yes. Is it realistic? probably not. Is it worth doing, definitely no.

Take a lesson from the LSVTEC/CRVTEC guys, a bunch of these guys realized it was probably smarter just to go turbo. The R&D associated with such a project will supersede any forced induction project. Especially with the availability of these ball bearing units (and the readily available SC units for the NSX) out in the market I don't see why one would even consioder a frankenstein motor on a NSX. IMO, it's just not worth the headaches.

[Accord-R]

It's still probably cheaper than doing a DOME Mugen motor! Any way turbos on a car that weren't meant to be turboed can be a big headache too. It's not like we are dealing with Civics where people have ironed out all the bugs. Noormally aspirated is much easier to deal with in the long run.

Originally posted by fangtl
If it does bolt up it will still require a lot more reserach to make the whole thing work, for example, which car's water pump are you going to use? How about the transmission? Headers, and at least 20 other things I can list off the top of my head. Is it an intriguing idea, yes. Is it realistic? probably not. Is it worth doing, definitely no.

Take a lesson from the LSVTEC/CRVTEC guys, a bunch of these guys realized it was probably smarter just to go turbo. The R&D associated with such a project will supersede any forced induction project. Especially with the availability of these ball bearing units (and the readily available SC units for the NSX) out in the market I don't see why one would even consioder a frankenstein motor on a NSX. IMO, it's just not worth the headaches.

[fangtl]

Originally posted by Accord-R
It's still probably cheaper than doing a DOME Mugen motor! Any way turbos on a car that weren't meant to be turboed can be a big headache too. It's not like we are dealing with Civics where people have ironed out all the bugs. Noormally aspirated is much easier to deal with in the long run.

I disagree, the information is already there for forced induction, meaning people have done it and the R&D is already available to us. OTOH, no one (I know) in North America has even attempted to mate a 3.5RL swap to a NSX head. Again, it's not as simple a bolting a head onto a block, if that were the case, CRVTEC swaps would costs $800; instead it costs $4000-6000 to do it right (depending on what you use). Now if it costs that amount for someone to do a LSVTEC/CRVTEC, how much do you think it'll cost to do the same on a NSX. Regardless, I doubt anyone can finish an OEM like quality 3.5L frankenstein motor for less than $20,000, even if it's a direct swap.

In regards to the DOME Mugen comment, I just don't know where to start. The JGTC and GT1 engines are race motors, one race, and Mugen/Dome tears the motor down. Yes, the displacement is 3.5L, but I assure you they aren't mating it to a RL motor. Unless you are off racing in JGTC, you are much better off buying a Comptech supercharger or build a custom turbo kit, both options will save you money and the headaches. Personally, I like my 3.2L just fine.

[Accord-R]

Actually, according to LUD the best option right now for forced induction is the Comptech SC. Next in my opinion is the Basch Boost kit. And as far as Turbos go, people are still ironing out the bugs...especially when Engine Management is involved. And with the comment about the CRVTEC swaps...how much do you think a turbo is? 3500 for a basic kit, plus 1500 for Engine Management plus installation...yea you get more power, but I said I didn't want to go forced induction. I have a custom T-66 single turbo setup in my IS 300 and even though it is basically the Supra motor...the Engine Management has caused many headaches, much more headaches then keeping it normally aspirated.

And for the DOME Mugen motor, I was just using it as an example...if you want more examples, one person on this board has a 3.3 liter motor, TODA racing has a 3.4 liter motor...I used 3.5 liters because it was the largest I have heard of.

Originally posted by fangtl
I disagree, the information is already there for forced induction, meaning people have done it and the R&D is already available to us. OTOH, no one (I know) in North America has even attempted to mate a 3.5RL swap to a NSX head. Again, it's not as simple a bolting a head onto a block, if that were the case, CRVTEC swaps would costs $800; instead it costs $4000-6000 to do it right (depending on what you use). Now if it costs that amount for someone to do a LSVTEC/CRVTEC, how much do you think it'll cost to do the same on a NSX. Regardless, I doubt anyone can finish an OEM like quality 3.5L frankenstein motor for less than $20,000, even if it's a direct swap.

In regards to the DOME Mugen comment, I just don't know where to start. The JGTC and GT1 engines are race motors, one race, and Mugen/Dome tears the motor down. Yes, the displacement is 3.5L, but I assure you they aren't mating it to a RL motor. Unless you are off racing in JGTC, you are much better off buying a Comptech supercharger or build a custom turbo kit, both options will save you money and the headaches. Personally, I like my 3.2L just fine.

[Lud]

Originally posted by Accord-R
Actually, according to LUD the best option right now for forced induction is the Comptech SC.

What?!? I have not said anything like that!

For my opinion on this subject, see the "Which one is best?" section here: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/turbo-super.htm

[fangtl]

Originally posted by Accord-R
Actually, according to LUD the best option right now for forced induction is the Comptech SC. Next in my opinion is the Basch Boost kit. And as far as Turbos go, people are still ironing out the bugs...especially when Engine Management is involved. And with the comment about the CRVTEC swaps...how much do you think a turbo is? 3500 for a basic kit, plus 1500 for Engine Management plus installation...yea you get more power, but I said I didn't want to go forced induction. I have a custom T-66 single turbo setup in my IS 300 and even though it is basically the Supra motor...the Engine Management has caused many headaches, much more headaches then keeping it normally aspirated.

Again, I disagree. I live in MD and I have seen a few and driven a SRT turbo IS300s. The one car that I drove felt strong, was almost stock like, and would probably whoop my NSXs butt in a straight line. This is a proven kit that was tuned correctly, and all the owners I have spoken to who have done the SRT kit have experience little to zero problems. Now, I have no idea what your "custom kit" consists of, but perhaps not enough reserach went into it and now it's causing you the 'headaches.' The T66 is a big turbo after all.

Regardless, the CRVTEC I was referring to was just the motor itself, no tuning involved. Personally, if I have $4000 to blow on a Civic/Integra, and was given the chance to choose between CRVTEC v. turbo, I would go with a proven turbo all the way. Hondata and tuning for both setups will cost approximately the same.

And for the DOME Mugen motor, I was just using it as an example...if you want more examples, one person on this board has a 3.3 liter motor, TODA racing has a 3.4 liter motor...I used 3.5 liters because it was the largest I have heard of.

I don't need more examples, I know of 3.5L NSXs out there, they exist it's a fact. Likewise it's a fact that they are not using the RL's bottom end. If you want 3.5Ls bore and stroke the C32A, it's proven to work. Why would you want to venture into unknown territory with a frankenstein setup? Again, even if the RL block bolts up to the head (and that's a big if), do you think a RL's bottom end will sustain repeated redlining at 8500 RPM? The head can do it, but will the block? Much R&D (and $$$) is needed my friend.

[Accord-R]

Go read some of the reviews of their turbo kits from the owners, not very impressive.

Originally posted by fangtl
Again, I disagree. I live in MD and I have seen a few and driven a SRT turbo IS300s. The one car that I drove felt strong, was almost stock like, and would probably whoop my NSXs butt in a straight line. This is a proven kit that was tuned correctly, and all the owners I have spoken to who have done the SRT kit have experience little to zero problems. Now, I have no idea what your "custom kit" consists of, but perhaps not enough reserach went into it and now it's causing you the 'headaches.' The T66 is a big turbo after all.

And second of all, the guy who built my Turbo kit has the fastest Supra in the country...what does SRT have? And by the way, they are not using a stand alone engine management system and have no way of controlling anything larger than 440cc injectors. I, on the other hand, am doing a full stand-alone and since the ECU is a multilink ECU I have to inteface the stand-alone with it so the interior functions of my car still works...this is a pain in the ass.

Regardless, the CRVTEC I was referring to was just the motor itself, no tuning involved. Personally, if I have $4000 to blow on a Civic/Integra, and was given the chance to choose between CRVTEC v. turbo, I would go with a proven turbo all the way. Hondata and tuning for both setups will cost approximately the same.

By the way, what's a C32A? That's a Legend motor, why would I want to mess with that, maybe you mean the C32B motor...oh but you know so much. And tell me where these 3.5 liter NSXs are out there? It's not as easy as "boring" out the block, the NSX's block isn't cast iron. "The cylinders on the new 3.2-liter V-6 are now made using an advanced metallurgical technique called Fiber Reinforced Metal (FRM), in which an alumina-carbon fiber is cast into the traditional aluminum alloy for enhanced rigidity. "

I don't need more examples, I know of 3.5L NSXs out there, they exist it's a fact. Likewise it's a fact that they are not using the RL's bottom end. If you want 3.5Ls bore and stroke the C32A, it's proven to work. Why would you want to venture into unknown territory with a frankenstein setup? Again, even if the RL block bolts up to the head (and that's a big if), do you think a RL's bottom end will sustain repeated redlining at 8500 RPM? The head can do it, but will the block? Much R&D (and $$$) is needed my friend.

And I want to go in to this territory because I want a very fast normally aspirated NSX. NOT TURBO. NOT SUPERCHARGED.

[Accord-R]

Didn't mean to take anything out of context, but I was refering to this:

However, there are hundreds of CTSCs that have been installed for years. The BBSC and many of the new turbo systems appear to be very good as well, but the fact is they are not long-term proven yet simply because they are new. In fact, all the turbos other than the Bell kit are still one-offs with less than half a dozen installed as far as I know. Certainly less than a dozen.

From here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showt...light=comptech

My point was is that many forced induction kits, especially turbos, have a more one off design, where the Comptech and the Baschboost are desgined to be installed outside of their manufacturers facilities.

Originally posted by Lud
What?!? I have not said anything like that!

For my opinion on this subject, see the "Which one is best?" section here: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/turbo-super.htm

[Elite]

A reasonably easy way to figure out if the nsx head will sit on the 3.5l block is to get the headgaskets from both of them. That would get you past the first part of even knowing if the head will even bolt on. Then you will have to find out which passages are which on the two block/head to see if they match up. That may be a little tricky. On some frankenstein swaps you need to use engine cement to block off some passages that are different from head to block. With enough research it can probably be done. I think its a decent idea, not sure if it will work but its a good idea. If it does work, i would love to to a 3.5l turbo. Mo - Elite.

[Accord-R]

Hey, that's a great idea! This would definetley save some hassle. I'll give my Acura dealership a call and see if they got any in.

Originally posted by Elite
A reasonably easy way to figure out if the nsx head will sit on the 3.5l block is to get the headgaskets from both of them. That would get you past the first part of even knowing if the head will even bolt on. Then you will have to find out which passages are which on the two block/head to see if they match up. That may be a little tricky. On some frankenstein swaps you need to use engine cement to block off some passages that are different from head to block. With enough research it can probably be done. I think its a decent idea, not sure if it will work but its a good idea. If it does work, i would love to to a 3.5l turbo. Mo - Elite.

[naaman]

Originally posted by Elite
A reasonably easy way to figure out if the nsx head will sit on the 3.5l block is to get the headgaskets from both of them.

That's brilliant. Any idea what the output would be on a 3.5-liter, 11.2 compression? I've been interested in this as well. It is definately something I would do if it would work. I don't really car how much it costs, either.

[Accord-R]

Cool, another person who shares my view. I will try to get to my Acura dealership soon to try this, but if any one else can or knows someone that works at Acura, give it a try!

Originally posted by naaman
That's brilliant. Any idea what the output would be on a 3.5-liter, 11.2 compression? I've been interested in this as well. It is definately something I would do if it would work. I don't really car how much it costs, either.

[fangtl]

Whatever floats your boats I guess. Anyway, just to clarify, I was making a stance from a personal standpoint and I was never arguing with you so there was no need to be so defensive.

Regardless, let us know if it bolts up, like I said previously, it is an interesting idea. It's not really worth it for me to do it, but apparently it is for you.

[Lud]

Originally posted by Accord-R
Didn't mean to take anything out of context, but I was refering to this:

You are right, in August 2002 I stated that the CTSC was the only true "kit" and that it was the only one with a known track record due to having hundreds of kits installed for years.

THAT IS NOT SAYING IT IS BETTER.

Those are just two attributes for people to consider when evaluating which is right for them.

[Accord-R]

I should have clarified my point, when I meant best, I meant best for someone who is having installed by their local dealership (meaning shippable and a predictable install), not power gains and build quality. I have been reading about the turbo installs lately and am very impressed, but since most of them are using a stand alone (I think AEM) it is best to be installed by the people who created the kit.

Originally posted by Lud
You are right, in August 2002 I stated that the CTSC was the only true "kit" and that it was the only one with a known track record due to having hundreds of kits installed for years.

THAT IS NOT SAYING IT IS BETTER.

Those are just two attributes for people to consider when evaluating which kit is right for them.

[PSPEC]

Anyone ever find this out?