T1 is not really a heavy braking corner.
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Lesson Finally Learned At Track
- Thread starter silver2002
- Start date
Guys, let's let this cool for a minute. I appreciate everyone's interest, but let's not jump to conclusions about what did or did not happen. I was in the car with Bruce and saw first hand what went down. The pedal hit the floor. He pumped repeatedly in what time we had left and there was nothing there. He tried to redirect the car to jump the key and catch another patch of asphalt on the next cut back. He did everything in his power to save the car.
I call what I saw "brake failure". Being that there was still normal levels of fluid and the lines are good, I can only assume that the brakes boiled. Something else? You guys start shooting me ideas and I'll look into it.
My goal was not to start a witch hunt, but to merely share my experience. I doubt Bruce will ever drive a student's car ever again. He is no less a qualified instructor who has a great grasp on driving dynamics - better than I ever will. My issue is with how matters have been handled since the wreck. Bruce at the time offered that he would help out in any way he could, but has failed to even attempt contact with me. He has obviously cleared his conscious of the matter and has moved on.
Bob, you are a lawyer and obviously good at arguing a point from any perspective that you choose. I'll give you that!
In the end, it is a car and non essential to my life and livelihood. I will miss going for spirited drives and hanging out with others of like minded passion. I think my record shows that I have stayed relatively active here on Prime despite my circumstance. I even try to attend meets, but hate explaining how i "used to" have an NSX. I hope one day to get to drive my NSX again, but right now I have more important responsibilities to address.
I have had one very generous member offer to start a fund, which I have yet to address with him, so let me do that now. I am a grown man and have never accepted a hand out in the form of charity. It is not that I am too proud for such a thing, but that there are others who certainly need it more. I would never allow someone to part with their money for such a silly cause as fixing some bloke's car. You have the need to give to charity? Than please, support your local animal shelter or children's medical center. Give to those who can't go and earn it themselves. I'll eventually recover from this. It is just happening much slower than I would like due to my personal responsibilities at the moment. I love being part of this group and will do so from afar for a time. Unless Bruce offers help - I will totally accept his offer to take some responsibility on this!
On a related note, I plan on parting out a lot of NSX stuff that I have. I guess it will be a charity 1 piece at a time in a backwards sort of way. I am moving into a small place in the city with only a 1 car garage. My NSX wouldn't even have a place to park had I had it running. So I plan on selling off pieces today so that I can rebuild it tomorrow. I guess the best I can ask is that someone buy my old parts!
I call what I saw "brake failure". Being that there was still normal levels of fluid and the lines are good, I can only assume that the brakes boiled. Something else? You guys start shooting me ideas and I'll look into it.
My goal was not to start a witch hunt, but to merely share my experience. I doubt Bruce will ever drive a student's car ever again. He is no less a qualified instructor who has a great grasp on driving dynamics - better than I ever will. My issue is with how matters have been handled since the wreck. Bruce at the time offered that he would help out in any way he could, but has failed to even attempt contact with me. He has obviously cleared his conscious of the matter and has moved on.
Bob, you are a lawyer and obviously good at arguing a point from any perspective that you choose. I'll give you that!
In the end, it is a car and non essential to my life and livelihood. I will miss going for spirited drives and hanging out with others of like minded passion. I think my record shows that I have stayed relatively active here on Prime despite my circumstance. I even try to attend meets, but hate explaining how i "used to" have an NSX. I hope one day to get to drive my NSX again, but right now I have more important responsibilities to address.
I have had one very generous member offer to start a fund, which I have yet to address with him, so let me do that now. I am a grown man and have never accepted a hand out in the form of charity. It is not that I am too proud for such a thing, but that there are others who certainly need it more. I would never allow someone to part with their money for such a silly cause as fixing some bloke's car. You have the need to give to charity? Than please, support your local animal shelter or children's medical center. Give to those who can't go and earn it themselves. I'll eventually recover from this. It is just happening much slower than I would like due to my personal responsibilities at the moment. I love being part of this group and will do so from afar for a time. Unless Bruce offers help - I will totally accept his offer to take some responsibility on this!
On a related note, I plan on parting out a lot of NSX stuff that I have. I guess it will be a charity 1 piece at a time in a backwards sort of way. I am moving into a small place in the city with only a 1 car garage. My NSX wouldn't even have a place to park had I had it running. So I plan on selling off pieces today so that I can rebuild it tomorrow. I guess the best I can ask is that someone buy my old parts!
No, it is not. Only the corner prior. Again, if a reasonable suggestion can be given for how the brakes magically worked perfectly following the incident, I'm all ears.
The point still remains - Don't allow anyone other than you to drive your car. They are not liable for the damages, an my guess is it would even void track insurance if you were bright enough to purchase it.
As much as I stress the value of purchasing a Lockton policy, I have to admit that I have not read the exclusions to see if the coverage would still be in effect if an instructor drove it. I was never concerned with that since I am the only driver of mine but I will check to see if I still have one of my old policies to see if a second drive voids the coverage.
On its face value, I would have to agree with you, No.
With the over 150 students and instructors I've instructed and driven their cars for the first 2 laps of their first session, I always drive their cars at a pace that most can run faster than. Its not my car.
The only purpose for driving a students car is to show them the lines, braking and acceleration points and to get a feel for the car so when I turn it back over to the student I know it's sound enough the student isn't going to kill us both.
Beyond that I think it really depends on how the car was being driven at the time. Simple instruction laps, no. Because you really should be going fast enough to do much damage if at all other than a 360 or a small off. So that kind of failure shouldn't be the blame of the instructor. The scenario you point out, absolutely not. Its unfortunate, but things happen and it would have probably happened no matter who was driving at the time.
I have never spun a students car or pushed the car to the point endangering either of our lives.
Its irresponsible as an instructor.
The other point you bring up is car prep prior to an event. Excellent point.
It does not happen enough and sometimes not well enough.
I always make it a point to go over the students car with them checking everything before going on track the first time, regardless if it's been cleared by tech.
Tech will not be in the car with us if we crash.
Car prep can't be talked about enough, because its not the speed that kills you if you get it wrong, its the sudden stop :-;
With the over 150 students and instructors I've instructed and driven their cars for the first 2 laps of their first session, I always drive their cars at a pace that most can run faster than. Its not my car.
The only purpose for driving a students car is to show them the lines, braking and acceleration points and to get a feel for the car so when I turn it back over to the student I know it's sound enough the student isn't going to kill us both.
Beyond that I think it really depends on how the car was being driven at the time. Simple instruction laps, no. Because you really should be going fast enough to do much damage if at all other than a 360 or a small off. So that kind of failure shouldn't be the blame of the instructor. The scenario you point out, absolutely not. Its unfortunate, but things happen and it would have probably happened no matter who was driving at the time.
I have never spun a students car or pushed the car to the point endangering either of our lives.
Its irresponsible as an instructor.
The other point you bring up is car prep prior to an event. Excellent point.
It does not happen enough and sometimes not well enough.
I always make it a point to go over the students car with them checking everything before going on track the first time, regardless if it's been cleared by tech.
Tech will not be in the car with us if we crash.
Car prep can't be talked about enough, because its not the speed that kills you if you get it wrong, its the sudden stop :-;
The corner prior is the carousel, also not a heavy braking corner. The only major braking corners are the keyhole (T2) on the pro course, and the end of the main back straight (T5?).
But there always is an "exception".
I let my friend and very qualified instructor take my NSX around with me in the passenger seat at Mosport to show me the lines. Weather was horrible with rain both days. I had new unshaved R compounds on the car with the only mileage being highway from NY to Mosport. We spun between 5A and 5B at approximately 23 mph, to the surprise of both of us. Later on when the rain stopped but the track was still somewhat wet I spun at around 28 mph. We were not doing track speeds but recon laps (parade speed at best) and didn't even have our helmets on since this was purely slow speed to learn the track. Learning experience for sure but something neither of us really anticipated (and both of us have quite a bit of seat time in the wet at other tracks).
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Billy, you have read Josh's description - - - any thoughts about possible cause/s?
No clue. So:
-Turbo nsx on street tires (what tires and size)?
-Bruce said and josh saw the brake pedal go to the floor braking for T1 @ Mid-Ohio?
-What lap?
-What brakes? (Bbk, pads, fluid)
-brakes worked flawlessly after wreck with pressure and no spongy pedal?
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-Turbo nsx on street tires (what tires and size)?
-Bruce said and josh saw the brake pedal go to the floor braking for T1 @ Mid-Ohio?
-What lap?
-What brakes? (Bbk, pads, fluid)
-brakes worked flawlessly after wreck with pressure and no spongy pedal?
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I miss characterized that turn ....as i recall from my only time there in 2011 you could carry good speed thru 1 but with a 500 hp nsx on street tires you might have to scrub more speed than usual.sorry for the confusion.
Am I understanding this correctly, you're not going to rebuild it ?
If you are going to rebuild it, post a list of parts you need.
I have many spares of various things and will help you get it back on the road all I can without needing any money, as I'm sure others will do.
If you are going to rebuild it, post a list of parts you need.
I have many spares of various things and will help you get it back on the road all I can without needing any money, as I'm sure others will do.
And that is a valid reason to actually drive the student's car for the first couple of laps in addition to showing the lines. A novice may have let a "buddy" tech the car but I am confident that if you drove a car for two laps at "reasonably fast" track type speeds you would be able to notice issues with brakes/steering/suspension/tires that a novice might not feel, at least not feel before it was too late.
we where not at mid ohio......njmp
It was at NJMP - Lightning
LOL...now thats the attorney in you speaking...
I bet that was a surprise, I can just see you two sitting there looking at each other going WTF was that ?
I bet that was a surprise, I can just see you two sitting there looking at each other going WTF was that ?
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Huh, why the heck did I think this was at mid-ohio?
I Don't think I ever drove lightning but I imagine the curbing is the same design as thunderbolt.
With that, did Bruce ride the apex or track out curbing in the previous corner?
What brakes? What lap?
Juice: how are the rear framerails and lower trunk panels between the rails (and subframe)? Fiberglass (and wide) fenders are not that expensive as well as a seibon carbon decklid. I wonder what it'd take to rebuild it.
I Don't think I ever drove lightning but I imagine the curbing is the same design as thunderbolt.
With that, did Bruce ride the apex or track out curbing in the previous corner?
What brakes? What lap?
Juice: how are the rear framerails and lower trunk panels between the rails (and subframe)? Fiberglass (and wide) fenders are not that expensive as well as a seibon carbon decklid. I wonder what it'd take to rebuild it.
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Since it was on our first lap, surprise is an understatement. But I remained calm and simply stated that since we went onto the wet grass on the inside of the turn, if we couldn't get enough grip to drive out we would switch seats and I would get behind the wheel while the cause of the off roading would have to get out and push.
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Here is some footage I took while trying to learn Lightning. Unfortunately I didn't have an instructor available who knew the track so it was "learn as you go" trying to figure out the line. And Wei Shen refused to slow down to let me follow him (damn you Wei Shen - damn you to hell........!)
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/h_StMhfX8Bk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/h_StMhfX8Bk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Yes, he should. And even for those who think otherwise, at a minimum, the instructor should be in touch with the student and be willing to try to come to a settlement that both could live with.
Granted, some may think that the instructor should be responsible for the entire damages, just as others may feel that the student should do so. But those are not the only two options possible. Perhaps splitting the cost (either 50-50, or with some other amount) might enable both parties to accept it as a fair resolution for a debatable situation, do that, and move on.
For an instructor to promise he would help out, and then walk away? That's inexcusable and unconscionable. He should be embarrassed and ashamed.
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Damm, was that Wei Shen I saw go buy you twice ?
That mans fast....
I love new tracks, but it takes me at least a day or two to figure them out without help.
Nice driving Bob. Very smooth.
You made it look fun and safe.
That mans fast....
I love new tracks, but it takes me at least a day or two to figure them out without help.
Nice driving Bob. Very smooth.
You made it look fun and safe.
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Wei Shen is fast and his car is even faster (I still remember an earlier version of his NSX where he boasted about his "door went 168 mph" - come on, some of you here are "old enough" to remember that reference, along with "prepaid ass...."). But I did enjoy watching the flames shooting out the pipes when he blew by me.
I wanted to follow that turbo miata a few more laps since that was the only one I had the chance to follow to get a feel for the track other than through the seat. It really is a good track for newbies with decent widths and runoff space before solid objects become an issue.
I drove Lime Rock yesterday - Yellow group. -
Instructor starts hinting to drive my car; his car is not in top shape etc., -- he can show me how to improve my line and get more speed.
With a polite explanation, I declined.
Instructor starts hinting to drive my car; his car is not in top shape etc., -- he can show me how to improve my line and get more speed.
With a polite explanation, I declined.
At what part of the video posted above is the infamous corner we are discussing about here?
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