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Lesson Finally Learned At Track

Joined
19 September 2011
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386
Location
Northern New Jersey
Lesson Finally Learned At Track


This past weekend I attended a two day event. That makes 15 track days and I learned a huge lesson at a relatively low dollar cost [ "relatively" being the operative word]. I write this post for newcomers to the sport and those in their first few years of HPDE driving [like me].


Here is the lesson: There is never a reason to let an instructor drive your nsx to demonstrate his or the cars' ability, with the exception of the first two laps of the very first session.

I've allowed an instructor to drive my car twice [during a session], once 2 years ago and again on Sunday. On both occasions, my car was damaged. In the scheme of things, the damage wasn't that bad but I believe the lesson is invaluable.

This instructor even offered to pay - but, for now, I am going to walk away because the real lesson will be cemented in place by eating it [ plus, his idea of a repair is: chewing gum, fiberglass, bondo and a can of Krylon].

This is not to bash my instructor or instructors in any way. This weekend I may have learned more about driving than at any other event. He was militaristic, he beat me to a pulp to break all the bad habits I showed up with. I am positive his training will save the car or even my life someday. In example, for the third session of day one, I mounted my iPhone with Harry's Lap timer. The minute he saw it he said "...take it down, do you want to learn how to drive, or make videos?..." I understood [after five seconds of biting my tongue], that this was a boot camp.

On both occasions, when I let the instructor drive, after they asked [which is now the "tell"], they went on track like it was their car, right into the fray, passing anyone and everyone. I did not learn a thing about driving during this ride along because I was too distracted.

So what happened this time? On about the fourth lap of catching spins and doing a little drifting we saw a debris flag waving at the end of the straight and it was too late - the cone had come a few feet off the apex and we nailed it. I believe he would not have hit the cone if he knew the car. I would not have hit the cone. No one can drive an NSX near limit in four laps.

The last time it happened was too long ago to bother with and is no more instructive.
In closing, I received phenomenal instruction and I am grateful for all of my instructors.

Lesson: There is never a reason to let an instructor [ you don't know well] drive your NSX.


WTB: Passenger side skirt, preferably Silverstone Metallic, for a 2002 [or maybe I'll fix mine].
 
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Their are a lot of so-called 'instructors' out there. Everyone and their mother is an instructor similarly to everyone is a real estate agent , engine 'tuner', and hair stylist.

I don't think a trustworthy and well-respected instructor would be driving over their head in a new car to have any of these situations come up, however the vast majority of 'instructors' might and should be taken with skepticism. I wouldn't let joe-blow who calls themselves an 'instructor' just drive your car but rather, get feedback from the community and people at the event, get an idea of who is who, talk to and get to know the instructors first, and then make an educated decision on who to let sit right, and left seat to instruct you.

Real good instructors often cost quite a bit of money, but then again so do golf coaches, engine tuners, and flying instructors. But in golf, you aren't at risk of hurting anything more than a couple hundred dollar club and in flying, you wouldn't put your life and plane at risk at that level to just anyone.


0.02
 
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what track and club?
 
John: I did not want to mention it on the forum - I'll PM you - the club was well run and the instructor was excellent [aside from this].
 
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thanks.
 
and flying instructors.

Just want to point out, that CFIs are cheap. In fact, you can probably get one to moonlight if you buy them lunch. :)

And for the record, I always give rides in my car, I never drive the students. I don't want the risk of being behind the wheel and something out of my control happening in someone's car. The exception is my student with the Carrera GT. That I couldn't pass up. :)
 
I do this too have fun what you described does not sound fun. This talk about racing and winning... were you racing? are you planning on racing the NSX? Is the car a dedicated racecar with FIA SFA approved racing equipment?

If I encountered this guy I would be HUGELY turned off by his attitude. When I head out to the track I'm paying for somewhere reasonably safe to facilitate me creating enjoyment and memories; this also includes being able to record what i want.

I've encountered this type before. When I first started going to the track about 15 years ago it was a huge scary thing to go on my own. I was very young and id call the track to find out days id be able to show up and do some glorified autocross on a skid pad. When i'd get there there were these dinosaur ego types from the POC or the Pantara club that would be doing tech. My car was a VW rabbit that looked rough but was in sound mechanical condition. These assholes would go above and beyond hammering on it (which i didnt mind) then took me, and only me, aside and did these 1 on 1 pop quizzes about flags and procedures and tell me that if i spun out that would be IT, the end of the world... THEN would no shit make me drive the course all day with some knockoff 3rd rate instructors wife or something at 3/4 speed, and if she wasn't available, well i got to sit my session out.

This made what was supposed to be a fun day feel like summer school and started my impressionable mind down the path of fear of mistakes and fear of learning, I was so caught up in their uptight world that enjoying myself or learning my car was like 4th or 5th down the list. I did a few here and there but eventually stopped and started going to the canyons every night instead.

It wasnt until years and years later that some friends of friends would rent out the track and I realized that their whole other world is certainly not what track driving is about. This is not to say that in flippant about safety or don't have respect of consequences, quite the contrary. What I do have a problem with is hard-charger mall cop taking something that is supposed to be fun and turning it into a NASA moonshot.

Maybe its me, maybe its my oil and water personality with overbearing dick-cop types. If it works for you, fair enough. But what are you really looking to get out of this? Racing instruction, like real racing? Bootcamp? A bill for car damage? I can think of other scenarios that will fulfill those goals and none of them involve a HPDE driving with the local Robocop.
 
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illwillem: I was driving in Yellow, in the Green / Yellow HPDE run group. Yellow with this club is low intermediate. The next run group up was blue / white. My post is just a heads up to others who are newer to HPDE. No plans for racing for me and never in the nsx - I am only looking to become a better driver - thanks
 
Just want to point out, that CFIs are cheap. In fact, you can probably get one to moonlight if you buy them lunch. :)

And for the record, I always give rides in my car, I never drive the students. I don't want the risk of being behind the wheel and something out of my control happening in someone's car. The exception is my student with the Carrera GT. That I couldn't pass up. :)
I went up with a guy for an 'intro to flying' gig that my Fiance got me for my birthday. I've flown a little bit before but this 'instructor' wasn't much older than me and ya... Probably not the greatest to just go up (or on track) with some random guy without at least getting an intro from someone that you know.
 
WTB: Passenger side skirt, preferably Silverstone Metallic, for a 2002 [or maybe I'll fix mine].

Funny, I'm in the market for the same part, 95-96 Midnight Pearl. Also a track mishap. But I was behind the wheel.

Then again the one time I did let an instructor drive my car he almost went off. So that was the last time - I've started politely declining.
 
Reminds me of this little gem


<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Mwa9TMG63fM" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="720" width="1280"></iframe>
 
Wow…what a douche instructor (nicest word I could come with).

As a respectful counter to the thread, some of the best instruction I've received was having someone drive my car on track. Having an experienced driver provide an example was a huge driving aid that helped in feeling what the car was doing, where I could go faster, where I was over-driving, and generally what the car could do. I went from 1:32s to 1:29s in a day just from one experience.

My buddies and I do the same with the understanding that "If it breaks, you fix it" and that's helped hugely as well. IMHO, just be extremely cautious with who you let drive your car and for what purpose. If they're there to just drive your NSX or an NSX or to break track records, I'd pass.

I feel for the driver in the above vid. Years ago, at an event in Mid-Ohio, I had someone berate me over "improper line" etc and it took me a while to regain the lost confidence. The improper line was "2 feet" here or there.
 
The instructor in that video is terrible teacher. What a flop. Sorry to hear about the damage to your car man. I have never felt comfortable letting someone drive my cars on the track before in a session. There are plenty of in-car video to learn from without seeing it in the flesh in my own car.
 
I don't let anyone drive my NSX on track. period. I maid this promise to my wife and have kept it.

I am also and instructor and I won't drive a students car on track. I will take them out in my car.
I find this is most beneficial after they have driven one session.
I usually don't push it with a student in the car. I'm not trying to show them up and I don't want them to drive over there head when in there car.
At the end of the day I may take them out for a fast lap. This all depends on where there skill level and experience is at.

- - - Updated - - -

The instructor in that video is terrible teacher. What a flop. Sorry to hear about the damage to your car man. I have never felt comfortable letting someone drive my cars on the track before in a session. There are plenty of in-car video to learn from without seeing it in the flesh in my own car.

in car video is not the same as seat time. Get a rid with the instructor in there car.
 
I am also and instructor...
I usually don't push it with a student in the car. I'm not trying to show them up and I don't want them to drive over there head when in there car.
At the end of the day I may take them out for a fast lap. This all depends on where there skill level and experience is at.
Very impressed -not a lot of people (instructors) have made that connection or care.
 
I wish that I knew this prior to letting Bruce McPhearson drive my NSX at NSXPO @ New Jersey. It was my 1st track event ever and he put my NSX into the wall at turn 1 off the strait while traveling at high speed. Mind you, a 500whp NSX on street tires. I have not had a NSX since that day. The worst part is when he said that I was partly to blame, and at least I still had a S2000 to track (my wife's car). He said he would try to help me out financially, but never bothered to call me since that day.

My wife has since been aggressively dismissive of me spending any money to repair the NSX. She warned prior to NSXPO that if anything happened to the car that I would not be allowed to repair it. She MEANT IT! The car has been in a barn on a lift since Cody graciously brought it back from NJMP.

So yeah, NEVER let ANYONE else drive your car. Ultimately, they don't give a shit if they wreck it and leave you fucked.
 
I don't let anyone drive my NSX on track. period. I maid this promise to my wife and have kept it.

I am also and instructor and I won't drive a students car on track. I will take them out in my car.
I find this is most beneficial after they have driven one session.
I usually don't push it with a student in the car. I'm not trying to show them up and I don't want them to drive over there head when in there car.
At the end of the day I may take them out for a fast lap. This all depends on where there skill level and experience is at.

- - - Updated - - -



in car video is not the same as seat time. Get a rid with the instructor in there car.

I said in my own car. lol I have rode with an instructor in their car before.

Watching video was referring to how others drive in their NSX. Picking out similarities and differences. Watching how they drive on the same setups.
 
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I wish that I knew this prior to letting Bruce McPhearson drive my NSX at NSXPO @ New Jersey. It was my 1st track event ever and he put my NSX into the wall at turn 1 off the strait while traveling at high speed. Mind you, a 500whp NSX on street tires. I have not had a NSX since that day. The worst part is when he said that I was partly to blame, and at least I still had a S2000 to track (my wife's car). He said he would try to help me out financially, but never bothered to call me since that day.

My wife has since been aggressively dismissive of me spending any money to repair the NSX. She warned prior to NSXPO that if anything happened to the car that I would not be allowed to repair it. She MEANT IT! The car has been in a barn on a lift since Cody graciously brought it back from NJMP.

So yeah, NEVER let ANYONE else drive your car. Ultimately, they don't give a shit if they wreck it and leave you fucked.

Sorry, but how were you to blame if he was driving?
 
He claimed that the brakes had failed (my fault). The pedal went to the floor at the end of the strait and he assumed catastrophic failure. But immediately following the accident, the brakes functioned properly and the brake fluid reservoir was at level. He refused to believe that he had boiled the fluid, but the brakes were proven solid. Even weeks later, fluid levels and brake feel were solid. He never brake checked down the strait following the carrousel and that is what really did us in.

I do believe trout that it is my fault. It is my fault that I let him drive my car. In a twisted way, he was correct.
 
Very sorry to hear your story and your car. I let an instructor drive my car once and he almost crashed, reading this thread I never will again. Got lucky that time.
 
I am a longtime instructor. I would never, ever drive anyone else's car at anything over "six tenths" - i.e. nowhere near the car's limits or my limits. For that matter, I would rarely drive anyone else's car at all. And if I drove someone else's car and damaged it, I would absolutely insist on paying for whatever damage insurance didn't cover (which means, probably all of it). And I abhor the idea of anyone else (instructor or otherwise) who wouldn't do the same.

There have been a couple of occasions in which I shared someone else's car on the track and/or they shared mine. In all such cases, we agreed beforehand that the driver is responsible for any damage that is due to an on-track incident.
 
It's a hard lesson but these days I leave nothing out when "prepping" for a track day and that includes insurance.

I will only do track days with groups that qualify for coverage through Lockton: http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/track-insurance/

This includes NSXPOs since the NSXCA is approved with our HPDE program to allow our members to purchase coverage. It's not mandatory but it beats the alternative.
 
There have been a couple of occasions in which I shared someone else's car on the track and/or they shared mine. In all such cases, we agreed beforehand that the driver is responsible for any damage that is due to an on-track incident.

Agree 100%. And even write it up on a bar napkin the night before. :)
 
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