500 is the new 400

While waiting in my Dr's office this morning flipping through car mags, I realized how top of the line cars all
have HP levels over 500hp. BMW M5, Panamera, Jaguar, Audi RS7, Mercedes 63 AMG.

The quickest and best cars also all have PDK type transmissions and can be subjected to punnishing 0-60 runs
back to back or as one magazine did, 62 consecutive launches with a Porsche Turbo S. When the editor asked
the Porsche engineer how many launches is the trans designed to handle the engineer simply responded....unlimited.

To sum it up. The new NSX MUST have pdk dual clutch type trans, launch control, 500hp, 120mph trap speed at
11.9 seconds or better and the ability to circle the track with as little drama as possible. These goals are away from
how our original car was designed which was to involve the driver with as much feedback and imput as possible.
However...............human error and involvement =slower lap times and burnt clutches.


I really don't know how Honda will find the perfect balance and they are still 18 months out but I hope and pray
they summon up Senna's spirit and they breath some magic on NSX 2.0.

I think the mistake here is equating "feedback" with "drama". When I take my NSX 1.0 around the track I get a crapload of feedback but, unless I do something stupid, no drama. You can have a car that feels raw yet is also very composed.

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As far as making average bozos feel like heros, I hope the new NSX is more 918 than BRZ in this regard. Yes, anyone can put a BRZ in sport mode, chuck it around, and have the computer step and save their asses at the last second. A 918, on the other hand, demands to be driven smoothly and precisely like the race car it is, and your reward for doing that is that its obscene performance is very accessible and not at all punishing.

NSX 2.0 should have no issues with any of ur concerns.... except appearance..... gawd I still can't get over it's looks....

That 500 may soon be 600. You can already walk into a Mercedes Benz dealership and with enough money walk out with a 600+hp perfectly comfortable, air conditioned, leather and auto tranny Benz.

With 740 ft-lb of torque.

NSXonwheels said:

That 500 may soon be 600. You can already walk into a Mercedes Benz dealership and with enough money walk out with a 600+hp perfectly comfortable, air conditioned, leather and auto tranny Benz.

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...which will throw a check light and be back at the dealership within two months.

Power is great but don't knock reliability. I drive way out far away from civilization in my NSX because I know it won't leave me stranded on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. If the new NSX is 400hp (same as a 911 Carrera S, mind you) but beats that car on reliability then it's a winner. Heck, if with turbos it bests the 911 Turbo (565hp) on power and reliability it's a big winner.

400 hp for the new NSX will simply be unacceptable.

Honda opted for the turbo route?

How can they deliver less output than Nissan, especially when it is about the drivetrain of their halo car using direct injection?

Nissan offers around 143 hp/L.

I just can't imagine Honda with less than 175 hp/L !!!

Let's suppose a very conservative 150 hp/L x 3,5 L = 525 hp.


175 hp/L x 3,5 L = 612,5 hp

200 hp/L x 3,5 L = 700 hp This is what Honda should come with and prove that the new NSX is in the same league as the 918, P1 and Laff ( Laugh ) ...


So easily feasible for Honda. Will they miss the boat again?

Since the NSX 2.0 will be turbod I don't see any reason why the aftermarket won't be able to dial them up to those other Hypercars..

BATMANs said:

Since the NSX 2.0 will be turbod I don't see any reason why the aftermarket won't be able to dial them up to those other Hypercars..

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Single exhaust port…that may prove to be a difficult obstacle.

Maybe it's possible for Honda, but don't forget NSX is only in mid 100k price tag while the cars you mentioned are around 1000k dolloars.

Even if honda can provide a NSX produce 700HP, it is definitely not at the rumored price.

effer said:

400 hp for the new NSX will simply be unacceptable.

Honda opted for the turbo route?

How can they deliver less output than Nissan, especially when it is about the drivetrain of their halo car using direct injection?

Nissan offers around 143 hp/L.

I just can't imagine Honda with less than 175 hp/L !!!

Let's suppose a very conservative 150 hp/L x 3,5 L = 525 hp.


175 hp/L x 3,5 L = 612,5 hp

200 hp/L x 3,5 L = 700 hp This is what Honda should come with and prove that the new NSX is in the same league as the 918, P1 and Laff ( Laugh ) ...


So easily feasible for Honda. Will they miss the boat again?

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With the increase in hp ratings the overall weight of the cars has been climbing over time as well. The net effect is probably not as dramatic as we think. Old vs new. In the end it's all about power to weight.

NSXonwheels said:

That 500 may soon be 600. You can already walk into a Mercedes Benz dealership and with enough money walk out with a 600+hp perfectly comfortable, air conditioned, leather and auto tranny Benz.

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I'd say it's already 600. the new Lamborghini Hurican and the Ferrari 458 Speciale both have 600 horsepower. Vipers, McLaren MP4's, even bloody Corvette models, they've all been hanging out in the '600+ club' for a while now...

Hp is important, but there are a vast amount of cars already listed with 600+ hp, but how many of them all perform on the same level still? How many of them are streetable road cars? How many are going to be refined and lastly be truly reliable? Let's not take one category and blow it out of proportion.

I drove my NSX to the track today and then spent the day hot lapping in a Ferrari 458 and Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera for a photo shoot for Exotics Racing - Fontana. the 458 is every bit as comfortable, refined and easy to live with as my NSX, just with twice the horsepower, twice the brakes, and twice everything else performance wise. I drive it each and every weekend, simply amazing car in every way. the Gallardo Superleggera with its carbon fiber bucket seats isn't very comfortable at all, but is an absolute monster. both of these cars get beat on all day long week in and week out. and believe it or not, they're pretty damned reliable. surprising for the Italian stuff, but how it is...

p.s. the car that breaks the most, the Nissan GTR. Japanese built.

fastaussie said:

I drove my NSX to the track today and then spent the day hot lapping in a Ferrari 458 and Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera for a photo shoot for Exotics Racing - Fontana. the 458 is every bit as comfortable, refined and easy to live with as my NSX, just with twice the horsepower, twice the brakes, and twice everything else performance wise. I drive it each and every weekend, simply amazing car in every way. the Gallardo Superleggera with its carbon fiber bucket seats isn't very comfortable at all, but is an absolute monster. both of these cars get beat on all day long week in and week out. and believe it or not, they're pretty damned reliable. surprising for the Italian stuff, but how it is...

p.s. the car that breaks the most, the Nissan GTR. Japanese built.

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That's good to hear about the 458. Acura has their sights set straight then. Still, have you driven the 458 on say a busy day in traffic? I imagine the DCT would make things a lot easier tho.

If Acura is benchmarking the 458, they're going to need at least mid-500s, possibly even 600 combined horsepower due to extra weight to keep up with the soon-to-be last-generation v8 Ferrari.

Mid 100s is a lot of money for this car. For an even $100k Nissan delivers 545 horsepower and world-beating performance. For 50% more money, the Acura should dominate the GTR and be a formidable opponent to Ferrari's V8 offerings.

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N Spec said:

Hp is important, but there are a vast amount of cars already listed with 600+ hp, but how many of them all perform on the same level still? How many of them are streetable road cars? How many are going to be refined and lastly be truly reliable? Let's not take one category and blow it out of proportion.

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I have driven several recent 600 horsepower cars. They are all streetable road cars. Hell, I think all of them come with a fairly lengthy warranty.

Craigy said:

If Acura is benchmarking the 458, they're going to need at least mid-500s, possibly even 600 combined horsepower due to extra weight to keep up with the soon-to-be last-generation v8 Ferrari.

Mid 100s is a lot of money for this car. For an even $100k Nissan delivers 545 horsepower and world-beating performance. For 50% more money, the Acura should dominate the GTR and be a formidable opponent to Ferrari's V8 offerings.

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I have driven several recent 600 horsepower cars. They are all streetable road cars. Hell, I think all of them come with a fairly lengthy warranty.

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I get the pricepoint argument as far as value comes, but the NSX is definitely going to be a bit (a lot) more refined than the GTR and much more exotic/exclusive IMO.

The way I see it, there are three types of car owners out there.

1. The ones that are about status (all about price, badging/branding)

2. The ones that are purist (see things as black and white)

3. The ultimate enthusiast (the ones that seek a balanced product for the next level).

The status seekers are really simple, it's all about how expensive your car is or what badge it carries. Reliability, performance, design, etc. takes a second seat.

The purist wants a tool that does something the best in one category, whether it be handling, raw power, straight line, etc. Modern Corvettes are performance monsters, but they are not exotic, exclusive or truly refined, albeit probably one of the more balanced sports cars out there. The Viper - torque powerhouse, but seriously, I would not call this car street-able. Look up the accident statistics for these cars and you tell me you have the proper skills and self control to daily drive this car spiritedly without wrecking eventually. The Lotus Elise, extremely light and nimble, but it's like a kit car and not street-able at all IMO. I hated sitting in one and could not imagine being stuck in traffic in one. It's just not very comfortable and refined either but also has a lot to do with price to power value also. Most Ultra High performance Mercedes/BMW/Audis on the other hand may offer comfort and safety but at a compromise of weight and performance. They will never be consider top-tier performers.

The NSX is something for the ultimate Enthusiast. It's a price point that is not so outrageous, but strides to be exotic, exclusive, refined, hopefully practical-reliable and of course highly competitive in the performance arena. This may seem like a paradox or contradiction for some purist, but balance is really the key. I don't think arbitrarily setting a 500 or 600 hp figure is going to guarantee success automatically. HP may sell cars in general, but that's not what the NSX is trying to do anyways. They are not trying to take market share from 911 or Corvette. Acura wants the recognition and brand establishment more than units sold for the NSX. We generally just want an ultimate machine that does everything well, not just make gobs of power or simply go fast. Again, there are already many vehicles to choose from that do that.

N Spec said:

The purist wants a tool that does something the best in one category, whether it be handling, raw power, straight line, etc. Modern Corvettes are performance monsters, but they are not exotic, exclusive or truly refined, albeit probably one of the more balanced sports cars out there. The Viper - torque powerhouse, but seriously, I would not call this car street-able. Look up the accident statistics for these cars and you tell me you have the proper skills and self control to daily drive this car spiritedly without wrecking eventually. The Lotus Elise, extremely light and nimble, but it's like a kit car and not street-able at all IMO. I hated sitting in one and could not imagine being stuck in traffic in one. It's just not very comfortable and refined either but also has a lot to do with price to power value also. Most Ultra High performance Mercedes/BMW/Audis on the other hand may offer comfort and safety but at a compromise of weight and performance. They will never be consider top-tier performers.

The NSX is something for the ultimate Enthusiast. It's a price point that is not so outrageous, but strides to be exotic, exclusive, refined, hopefully practical-reliable and of course highly competitive in the performance arena. This may seem like a paradox or contradiction for some purist, but balance is really the key. I don't think arbitrarily setting a 500 or 600 hp figure is going to guarantee success automatically. HP may sell cars in general, but that's not what the NSX is trying to do anyways. They are not trying to take market share from 911 or Corvette. Acura wants the recognition and brand establishment more than units sold for the NSX. We generally just want an ultimate machine that does everything well, not just make gobs of power or simply go fast. Again, there are already many vehicles to choose from that do that.

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I agree a lot of horsepower doesn't guarantee success, but a lack of power will guarantee failure.

"Does everything well" for a sportscar in the $130k-$150k range includes "goes fast very well." If someone simply wants a refined sportscar that doesn't have a ton of power, he can buy a 911, an M3, etc. and save a lot of money.

If Acura is trying to keep up with cars like the 458, V10 R8, 500-600 horsepower is not "arbitrary," it's a physical necessity. Otherwise it'll be a good looking, too expensive car that doesn't sell. Acura/Honda simply doesn't have the same marque as Porsche, Audi, Ferrari to sell a slower car for big money, no matter how nice it is.

N Spec said:

That's good to hear about the 458. Acura has their sights set straight then. Still, have you driven the 458 on say a busy day in traffic? I imagine the DCT would make things a lot easier tho.

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I haven't driven the 458 heaps on the road, but I will tell you it is easily as comfortable, easy to get in and out of, and the air con and controls all work as good or better than my NSX, which works perfectly and amazingly well. of course, the Ferrari is 20 years newer in design, it should be better. you can put the car in automatic and drive away, no worries. very easy car to drive. that car should be the benchmark of every manufacturer.

Craigy said:

I agree a lot of horsepower doesn't guarantee success, but a lack of power will guarantee failure.

"Does everything well" for a sportscar in the $130k-$150k range includes "goes fast very well." If someone simply wants a refined sportscar that doesn't have a ton of power, he can buy a 911, an M3, etc. and save a lot of money.

If Acura is trying to keep up with cars like the 458, V10 R8, 500-600 horsepower is not "arbitrary," it's a physical necessity. Otherwise it'll be a good looking, too expensive car that doesn't sell. Acura/Honda simply doesn't have the same marque as Porsche, Audi, Ferrari to sell a slower car for big money, no matter how nice it is.

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I'd say you summed that up to a tee Craigy. there seems to be too much excuse making already for the new NSX. it either needs to perform or don't build it. like I said a while back, Acura can't build an NSX just for previous NSX owners. it needs to build a car for everyone, and that means it needs to compete with the best sports cars from the other manufacturers. and in the sports car world, numbers and performance is how one competes. end of story. remember in the late 90's and early 2000's when Acura couldn't even give NSX's away with $10,000 rebates? the car was still half the price of a Ferrari, but no one cared about the price, practicality and "balance" then did they? and shortly there after, Acura quit making the car...

Craigy said:

I agree a lot of horsepower doesn't guarantee success, but a lack of power will guarantee failure.

"Does everything well" for a sportscar in the $130k-$150k range includes "goes fast very well." If someone simply wants a refined sportscar that doesn't have a ton of power, he can buy a 911, an M3, etc. and save a lot of money.

If Acura is trying to keep up with cars like the 458, V10 R8, 500-600 horsepower is not "arbitrary," it's a physical necessity. Otherwise it'll be a good looking, too expensive car that doesn't sell. Acura/Honda simply doesn't have the same marque as Porsche, Audi, Ferrari to sell a slower car for big money, no matter how nice it is.

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All I'm saying is that the GTR is generally 600 lbs, if not 800 lbs heavier than most super cars, and barely has 500 hp from the factory, but yet it is capable of performing very well.

Honda is known is for underrating their engines. Many of their cars have put more power on the dyno than what is claimed by their official rating. I'm more concerned about real world numbers that the NSX puts down versus if it's actually 500 or 600 hp. If Honda claimed it makes only 480 hp, but the car still does 0-60 in ~3 sec and a high 11 sec 1/4 mile, than who is really going to complain? Especially with potential for easy power upgrades from the twin turbo setup.

There is still no official times for the RLX hybrid, but the power and weight is in. For an extra ~60 hp, the RLX gained 400 lbs. 0-60 times have improved by almost half a second. Speculation say that the 1/4 mile time should improve by almost a full second thanks to the 60 hp jump, but still waiting for an official clock.

If the new NSX uses essentially the same system, we can probably expect the TT engine to make ~480 hp by itself before adding the 60 hp and 400 lbs of hybrid components. So say 2800 lbs and 480 hp before the batteries and motors are added is my guess if the 3200 lb target weight is true. Even at only 480 hp, the NSX would nearly 600 lbs lighter than the GTR and with AWD-like traction up to 80 mph like the RLX. I simply don't see how the NSX could be slow, especially with Twin Turbos to help it gradually increase hp over the years like the GTR.

I stand corrected. The RLX SH-AWD 0-60 is speculated by MT to be in the mid to high 4 seconds! 1/4 mile times should be much improved:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1312_2014_acura_rlx_sport_hybrid_sh_awd_first_drive/

the GTR is the wrong car to use as a weight comparison, because it is extremely heavy. that weight can really be felt when hustling that car around the track. the NSX, (especially as the NSX's original concept was all about light weight) should be compared to the lightest of Supercars, not the heaviest. 3200 lbs. would be an excellent base weight for the NSX with all batteries and such...

N Spec said:

Hp is important, but there are a vast amount of cars already listed with 600+ hp, but how many of them all perform on the same level still? How many of them are streetable road cars? How many are going to be refined and lastly be truly reliable? Let's not take one category and blow it out of proportion.

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I'm afraid to inform you... Pretty much all of them. In today's market, consumers aren't really willing to compromise like they have in the past. Just look at the Viper. Great car, why can't they sell them? Because its compromised. People simply aren't interested in the 'can-only-drive-if-you're-senna' style supercars anymore. People wantperformance along with accessibility, drivability, practicality, reliability, luxury, for god's sake people even want fuel economy in their supercars.

krea.tion said:

I'm afraid to inform you... Pretty much all of them. In today's market, consumers aren't really willing to compromise like they have in the past. Just look at the Viper. Great car, why can't they sell them? Because its compromised. People simply aren't interested in the 'can-only-drive-if-you're-senna' style supercars anymore. People wantperformance along with accessibility, drivability, practicality, reliability, luxury, for god's sake people even want fuel economy in their supercars.

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Your statement backed up my assertions more than contradicting it.

N Spec, I think you're missing everyone's point mate. the original NSX was all of the above mentioned things when it originally debuted, at a time when all the other cars were not. but now virtually every other Supercar out there, the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Porsche, (I don't consider the GTR a Supercar, more-so a very heavy video game on wheels) and even the bloody Corvettes are all pretty accessible, drivable, practical, reliable and luxurious. the NSX no longer has these advantages up it's sleeve. and to many enthusiasts, these were perceived as detractors towards the Supercar experience anyways. so without equal horsepower figures and the resultant performance, how do you think Acura will sell this car, a high end performance car? by giving it the best fuel mileage?

fastaussie said:

N Spec, I think you're missing everyone's point mate. the original NSX was all of the above mentioned things when it originally debuted, at a time when all the other cars were not. but now virtually every other Supercar out there, the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Porsche, (I don't consider the GTR a Supercar, more-so a very heavy video game on wheels) and even the bloody Corvettes are all pretty accessible, drivable, practical, reliable and luxurious. the NSX no longer has these advantages up it's sleeve. and to many enthusiasts, these were perceived as detractors towards the Supercar experience anyways. so without equal horsepower figures and the resultant performance, how do you think Acura will sell this car, a high end performance car? by giving it the best fuel mileage?

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I wasn't comparing the old NSX to any modern cars. I was talking about what the new NSX is shaping up to be like and what one can expect from Honda's design and engineering.

The new Corvette is a nice package overall, but it'll never be an exotic or exclusive car, let alone being super-refined in design. The interior is still lacking. The Dodge Viper has never been a practical car. Any Lotus has never been a refined or well built cars. Any German ultra-premium car with 500+ HP will never be in the top tier of performance. If there is, please name one aside from Porsche, in which, you can't really call most the 911 stock exotic/exclusive.

What I am saying is that, even though there are cars that can go really fast, they are not well rounded like the NSX was or is going to shape up to be. It's going to cover every field possible except making high volume sales like the Corvette or 911. I know it's too early to speak for the new NSX, but it's looking like one of the better well rounded supercars.

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And to re-iterate my earlier statement about performance and sales to answer your question about hp and sales. I think Honda will sell their limited project production of this car quite easily, pending how radical or close they are to the current concept versus production model. They are not trying to match the Corvette or 911 sales numbers. We don't want tanking depreciation values like those cars for the NSX. There is a point in selling only about a thousand sport cars per year versus 10K or 30K a year. It's called exclusivity and the point of being exotic.

I also believe that the NSX will be able to compete and surpass the current 458, with room for improvement in the future thanks to the TT setup. Even if it comes in at a conservative "450" hp from motor alone, which I think Honda will exceed 500 with the e-motors, the performance can still keep up with the 458 thanks the AWD novelty. It's going to be an 11 second car. Obviously that feat is not hard these days.

People keep expecting this car to sell like a Corvette or even GTR. That was never the point. I like the fact that if you look in the market right NOW for a used NSX, you will be hard pressed to find one under 80K miles for under $30K.