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Who still hates the hybrid?

RYU

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Even until today I still hear groans and moans about the decision to go hybrid in the NSX 2.0. This really reminds me of the attitude when people hated Fuel Injection in place of Carburetors.

If you've been hiding under a rock, Formula One are successfully racing hybrids. So are the LMP1 cars in this last weekends 24H Le Mans :biggrin:. Not to mention the P1 & the 918 and to a lesser extent the Laferrari

These cars are amazing!

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I'm hopeful the NSX will be an amazing hybrid
 
I'll step right to the front of the line.

I don't have neither the financial means of a F1 or FIA WEC team nor an entire staff of engineers who can sort the car and customize the car all the time. (Have folks kept up with how many different modules of the hybrid systems have been replaced in the current F1 cars?)

Give me a Mid Engine non hybrid car with decent performance and I'll take that in a heartbeat.

I have my name down for the rumored Cayman GT4 and still have the F458 itch still nagging me.

The upcoming C7 Z06 is tempting as well based on value/performance standpoint.

In the engineering world there is a very useful mantra KISS (Keep it simple stupid).

It is what experienced engineers who have had experience designing/producing/supporting succesful products always tell the fresh out of school engineers who have all sorts of pie in the sky dreams without having real world experience.

Like I have mentioned before, make a non hybrid NSX2.0 and I would consider buying one. Otherwise I have zero interest in getting one.
 
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I can see how people would be put off by fuel injection when they had already devoted time and energy and money into learning a carburetor system (I'm talking mainly about the "car guys," of course). It requires a completely new type of technology that renders the previous systems irrelevant.

Now, as for evolution within the fuel injection technology itself, the advancements are certainly welcome (TBI, MPFI, Direct Injection, etc). To me, it seems that if hybrid technology worked in some other way (for example, the electric motor turned the crank-shaft without the aid of air/fuel) then I suspect that hybrid technology would be much more welcome in the auto-enthusiast market. Since most of us on this site see their cars as more than a utilitarian means of transportation, when engineers start mucking around with the systems that enthusiasts have come to love/enjoy/tinker with, etc, it's predictable that new tech will be met with some back lash.
 
Lesser extent the LaFerrari?
After years of following Ferrari from the cheap seats they seem to always be last to embrace new technology. This is evident, in my mind, by the laferrari's lack of an electric only mode. It seems like the electric system in the laferrari is there to augment where as in the p1 and 918 it's a crucial part of the drivetrain. Of course, I'm bench racing here... I won't get the chance to drive any of these 3 anytime soon.

on a side note, the hybrid braking system is fascinating to me... Just imagine the calibration and tuning it takes to make the transition between electric regen to hard traditional braking.
 
I think wishing for your road car to have anything in common with tier-0 race cars is unfortunately a thing of the past... just like the rich are multiplicatively richer than a generation ago while the middle class remains flat, the race car has expanded multiplicatively in complexity in a way that simply isn't relevant or applicable to the cars you, Joe Average, and I can afford to purchase, maintain, and take to the track.

I work for a big tech company, but one whose mantra is decidedly NOT technology for technology's sake, but rather the right technology (once ready for prime time and mature) applied in the right places with good taste and great design fairy dust sprinkled on top. We are also often called out as "the last to adopt things" as RYU said of Ferrari.

Ferrari is selling an experience first and foremost, so they used hybrid tech when and ONLY when it would serve that experience. Some of the other hybrids feel more like a Samsung smart watch, technology for technology's sake and for the sake of being able to say you did it, not really well considered as a holistic experience.

I will call out the 918 - it's a $1m car when all is said and done. Imagine if they had skipped all the hybrid AWD garbage and instead spent Joe Captialgains' $1m on refining the V10 from the Carrera GT, fine-tuning their fantastic PDK system even further, and hotrodding their excellent PASM and torque-vectoring systems. That car would tell the same story of the Porsche experience as the base Cayman does, only more so.

Some companies build tech demos. Some companies build well-considered products that give a lifetime of long-term value to the customer. Ultra-low-production seven figure halo cars have always been more of the former than the latter. Tesla Roadster aside, the NSX is the first six figure hybrid sports car (well, I suppose the i8 belongs in there). It remains to be seen where on the spectrum those two land and whether they are able to make the system make sense for buyers.
 
The Tesla isn't a hybrid. But it is a nice show of technology and I think Elon Musk is awesome. As a side note: I spend my life litigating patents and I also think he is awesome for giving away Tesla's patent portfolio.

I also think the i8 seems awesome, but obviously isn't the full sports car that the NSX appears to be. I would love to daily the BMW.
 
Ferrari just took a different approach. I don't see anything wrong with that. Plus they have by far the lightest of the 3 cars and some innovative tech like the drivers seating. Yes the hybrid allows for a higher revving car and using the electric motor to boost low end response. With the goal of performance and using hybrid technology to augment the performance of a car to a point thats not possible by traditional means is cool and I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if its faster than the other two.
 
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There's nothing wrong with the Ferrari. Heck, it might even be the best out of the 3 (debatable?). I'm one step after your typical "early adopter" so what I think is cool might be different than some of you folks here. I commented on ferraris technology because I thought it was commonly accepted knowledge. Again, as long as they can continue to build badass cars providing badass driving experiences then the issue is moot. Me personally, when I'm in the market for say, an nsx 2.0, I would LOVE a practical electric only mode.

racing pushes technology. Some of which eventually make it to your street car. I think we're in a time when hybrid tech has matured and has frankly surpassed my expectations. I had never thought they could be successfully raced while yielding so much HP and efficiency.

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The Tesla isn't a hybrid. But it is a nice show of technology and I think Elon Musk is awesome. As a side note: I spend my life litigating patents and I also think he is awesome for giving away Tesla's patent portfolio.

I also think the i8 seems awesome, but obviously isn't the full sports car that the NSX appears to be. I would love to daily the BMW.
On a sidenote note.. I agree. Elon is brilliant. I'm typing one handed otherwise i'd have a novel to write about this. This might seem like a selfless decision to advance the Open Source movement )it is) but it's also a brilliantly hidden business profit and market share opportunity if it works. He's a calculated gambling man. I like it.

i8 vs NSX will be interesting.
 
I don't think the 918 or the P1 goes much further than 20 miles or so on full electric mode, so not sure how 'practical' that is. At the end of the day, all 3 of those cars show that hybrid technology can improve the performance of cars to levels not really achievable through normal gas engines only. I'm sure as battery technology improves, these supercar-hybrids will be able to have 100+ mile electric ranges and be more practical from that standpoint.

The I8 is cool and another paving the way in this hybrid direction and while it has some impressive acceleration numbers, the I-3 engine does not make much power and it's not quite a Tier-2 Super Hybrid (Tier-1 being a P1, 918, LaFerrari) in my eyes. I sure hope the NSX 2.0 will have more performance than that especially from its gas engine.
 
I think wishing for your road car to have anything in common with tier-0 race cars is unfortunately a thing of the past... just like the rich are multiplicatively richer than a generation ago while the middle class remains flat, the race car has expanded multiplicatively in complexity in a way that simply isn't relevant or applicable to the cars you, Joe Average, and I can afford to purchase, maintain, and take to the track.
Curious why you would think this? perhaps i'm ignorant but it seems the proven technologies always trickles down eventually. It may not happen next year but it seems to occur faster now.
 
Hybrid is the reason this car is interesting. Its 2014 and in the big scheme of history, the automobile hasn't progressed very much. Sure, many improvements have been made over time to optimize dynamics and efficiency but its always been the same ICE, 4 wheels and a steering wheel. Its time to get the ball rolling on some TRULY new innovative ideas for personal transportation. Perhaps I'm the type of guy that doesn't mind taking risks and trying new ways to solve the same problem. I would never in a million years consider the new NSX had it been traditional ICE set up. I appreciate the desire for advancement and the acknowledgement that we need to start doing things differently around here.
 
I have given the new NSX a lot of thoughts and my mind have changed big time.

I was watching MT TV on YouTube today and they have shown multiple Nissan GTRs that is capable of achieving 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. So the answer to the question is absolutely not!!! You don't need a hybrid system to go fast and I personally believe the system is being used to please the current popular culture.

I don't believe the extra weight from the hybrid system will make the car slower or make it faster, but it is totally unnecessary. Again, look at GTR, 458, 911, etc, none of those are hybrid and every one of them is more than capable. In fact I think Honda made a huge mistake for going hybrid, or not offering a none hybrid option. The car will not have a legendary classic status like the origin X nor will be a great collector car, as the hybrid system will only depreciate the car faster. I can only imagine 25 years down the road Honda stop supporting the car and we will have a bunch of pissed off owners crying about the repair costs!

Will I ever buy one? Yes, because I like to support Honda and only if I can afford it new, but I will not keep it forever like my 2003.
 
Top 3 cars in lemans were all hybrids. I don't think this is because the manufacturers were looking to please popular culture. Yes you can go Really fast without it, but seems that mfgs have figured out ways to go even faster with it.
 
Rob makes a strong point, although, there are deeper questions to be answered as far as whether hybrids are "better" for (overall) performance than a stand alone internal combustion set up. For example, what are the disadvantages when it comes to a street car that relies on the hybrid motor for performance? Are there any?
 
I really don't think so Rob, I believe it's a marketing scheme to sell cars. There is a discontempt right now with F1 and that will eventually spread to other series. The F1 power plant of today is not more powerful than the Powerplant of the 1980's, the drivability is different and it is more fuel efficient. If they drop the ERS system and increase the boost by 1 bar, all is compensated.

It does not make any sense to have a hybrid system in high price consumer cars, it is as simple as it gets. However, it is not up to me to make that judgement, it is up to the consumer to do so. There is a good reason why manufactures such as Posche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc haven't really use the hybrid power plant in their regular line up, probably because an affordable performance hybrid system may not be reliable enough at the consumer level. Heck Porsche is still replace their internal combustion engines under warranty more than they'll like to.
 
This is why NSX 2.0 is taking a long time yes the Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, built amazing cars but at the end of the day can you daily them. This is what Honda has to get add to the formula "reliability". They always say you can only pick 2 out of the 3 (money, power, RELIABILITY) the other manufacturers never have to deal wit the big R.
 
This is why NSX 2.0 is taking a long time yes the Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, built amazing cars but at the end of the day can you daily them. This is what Honda has to get add to the formula "reliability". They always say you can only pick 2 out of the 3 (money, power, RELIABILITY) the other manufacturers never have to deal wit the big R.

You can daily drive all of them. Step into the 21st century ;)
 
You can daily drive all of them. Step into the 21st century ;)

They are comfortable enough and easy enough to drive that it is physically possible to drive them every day without hating yourself.

They still fall apart if you put any serious kind of miles on them (well maybe not Porsche but definitely the other two). Show me a McLaren 12c with 30-40k miles on it that isn't completely beat to shit...
 
I thought the big R in my post stood for RELIABILITY, but I guess some translate it to daily driver and comfort lol. I guess if you have deep pockets then no worries but even then show me a car from one of those big boy brands that has more then 100k in the clock.
 
Hybrid technology allows my wife's Prius Plug-In to get 50-130mpg, which allows me to use more gas even as our household energy usage has decreased. So no, I don't hate the hybrid!

Seriously, hybrid technology not only brings mileage benefits, it also allows engineers to build engines tuned for high-rpm hp, letting the motors supply the low rpm torque.

It's the same old story. Efficiency and capability/power go up, along with complexity and cost. This is progress, and there will always be those who resist it. It's harder to see the benefits over a few years, but go for a ride in a '70s Corvette, or a DC-3,
 
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It will be a nice move if they make a Type R without the hybrid system but with extra boost, make it 2700lbs with 600hp on tap. While at it, drop the AWD crap too.
 
I like what the hybrid technology brings, the mileage, the efficiency, saving the dolphins and the whales etc. I think its pretty cool. I also think most of them are UGLY and does not satisfy the senses the way IC cars do. I miss the sounds, the smell, the exotic noise of a flatplane, or the burn out of a funny car...oh and the watery eyes, the lumpy idle and the Brrrrraaa of the push rod motor....God, how I wish I can experience the G-load of the F1 in the turns b 4 I kick the bucket.

For the most part, the new breed of technology is at the beginning of its life cycle and the IC cars is at the end of its cycle. This means its very costly to mod the hybrid as the AF is yet to develop and what fun is it to plug & play to change batteries or the power module only to find out its very expensive and not made to last cuz we are still climbing the learning curve. IC mods have grown from carburator(spelling?) to fuel injection to ECU to DI in the last 50-60+ yrs. SEMA market is mature and due to the economy of scales, AF parts are affordable for most of us. Just look at your own mod list.

The bottom line, physics don't lie, power to weight ratio still applies to any vehicle. Maximum mount of HP on minimum amount of wheels = most fun. May it be silently, or waking up the neighbors. I am glad NSX 2.0 is coming out but its ugly & heavy. I drove a MP12 the other day, the only place i can experience its capability is on a big track. With all the high tech and creature comfort amenities, At $200k+ I think its 500 lbs over weight.
 
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