Drove a Tesla P85 awhile ago...

And I have to say, I'm spoiled. I feel that every gas engined car that I now drive sucks. The lack of low-end power/torque, the thrashing of mechanical parts, the drivetrain slop, the noise, the seemingly needless transmission shifting (be it manual or automatic) and so on.

I used to enjoy driving these cars but now I compare everything to the Tesla P85 and they all come up way short. And I'm not only talking about my current Subaru BRZ but also my NSX and the cars of friends and family (many of which are high-end performance cars).

I didn't expect this to happen. The endless torque, acceleration, the turbine-like whine... it's as if they beamed back a car from the next century that had some kind of gravity drive unit that just pulls you down the road.

The prior owner of my NSX only sold me the car because he bought the tesla roadster. Took me for a ride and it was pretty interesting, so I know what you're dealing with. I'll starting looking into these more in another 5 years or so myself.

I love that car, but I wish the range was better. But for a car just to drive around the city it would be hard to beat.

NetViper said:

I love that car, but I wish the range was better. But for a car just to drive around the city it would be hard to beat.

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Oh go ahead Dave, there are now 6 Superchargers in Florida. One is right there in St. Augustine. What are you waiting for?:biggrin:

simplife said:

Oh go ahead Dave, there are now 6 Superchargers in Florida. One is right there in St. Augustine. What are you waiting for?:biggrin:

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I'd be sunk going to Orlando and back. I will wait in the next gen. Though I would love to see tesla have something like a volt with a 1.5 l engine as backup.

Jimbo said:

And I have to say, I'm spoiled. I feel that every gas engined car that I now drive sucks. The lack of low-end power/torque, the thrashing of mechanical parts, the drivetrain slop, the noise, the seemingly needless transmission shifting (be it manual or automatic) and so on.

I used to enjoy driving these cars but now I compare everything to the Tesla P85 and they all come up way short. And I'm not only talking about my current Subaru BRZ but also my NSX and the cars of friends and family (many of which are high-end performance cars).

I didn't expect this to happen. The endless torque, acceleration, the turbine-like whine... it's as if they beamed back a car from the next century that had some kind of gravity drive unit that just pulls you down the road.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how I felt after driving my brothers Tesla p85 for a day. There is no point in improving gas engine cars any more. Nothing can bring a gas car close to Tesla's effortless acceleration and driving capabilities. There's just no point in even trying.

I felt improvements to gas engine cars are in the wrong direction. Waste of time really... What car manufacturers have been trying to achieve for a 100 years Tesla already achieved, and surpassed.

Exactly!!

And to think they nailed it so convincingly with their first real effort completely from scratch is so amazing. The continued expansion of the Supercharger network and the battery improvements have made this a done deal. All these trend curves are going to intersect real soon. Range increasing, Battery Cost dropping, Battery Power Density increasing, Increasing numbers of Superchargers, etc. 5-8 years that's all.

What I really notice, now more than ever is the constant lugging feel of upshifting (auto trans). Of course, its for emissions, and it is somewhat better in sport mode - but god that luggy feel sucks. It's really freakin annoying. And introducing 8, 9, 10 speed automatics is just silly when you consider all the parts and complexity.

It's so hard to describe to someone too. Reminds of that movie where modern day fighter jets went back in time to face Japanese WW2 fighters about to attack Pearl Harbor - Final Countdown I think. Technology from another time in the future.

BTW: There's a guy out there who has done a rigorous financial NPV analysis and it's pretty interesting. Turns out over an 8 year period the Tesla MS is on part with a Honda Odyssey.

http://www.teslacost.com/

Until they come up with a way to recharge and get back on the road in 5 or 10 minutes, it's a niche car.

I got a little curious after I first drove the Tesla, so I did a little research. Apparently back before gas cars were mass produced there were working prototypes of electrical cars that operated very well and were very reliable.

Companies in Europe were spending a lot of effort in that area which seemed like the way to make automobiles. gas engines just didn't make sense, people could not imagine a pump on every corner, it sounded ridiculous.

Then came along mr Ford and he decided to cut a deal with the newly prospered oil companies in Texas, so that both the oil industry and automobile industry can benefit. The first mass production assembly line was built, despite the fact that the technology did not make sense, but he was able to make them cheap enough for the masses.

... And history took a wrong turn.

We have all been paying for it ever since. car manufacturers have struggled to improve gas engines, transmissions, fuel infections, clutches, etc etc. To the point of ridiculous complexities. Where all you really need is a motor and a battery.

... In an ironic way, the Tesla may seem like a car from the future, but it's really the car from the past. The past that should have happened. That's why driving it feels so natural.

We're only trying to go back a 100 years and allow history to make the right decision this time.

^^ Disagree. Batteries in 2014 are only just now beginning to be capable of storing the kind of energy needed to make an electric car practical, and even today they have significant limitations. Gasoline made sense because it stores a lot of energy in a very transportable form. Lead-acid batteries of 100 years ago would have been woefully inadequate to build a country-sized transportation infrastructure.

Lead acid battery was invented in 1859 in France. The first practical battery operated car was built by Thomas Parker in England in 1867.



The first production electriccar was built in 1890s in England , it was called the "dog cart". The cities were small back then relative to today and the range of the batteries would suffice for trips around the core areas of cities.
The first German electric car was manufactured in 1888:




Americans built their first battery operated car in 1890. By then electric battery-powered taxis were common in London, they were called "Hummingbirds" due to the humming noise they made.
In US there were electric cab companies popping up, one of them had 62 cabs operating until 1898 in Chicago.

This is a Detroit advertisement for the electric "city-car":




It was only in early 20th century that the electric car market declined. They started building more roads and higher ranges were required from the batteries. Before the car companies could address the new demands, Ford struck a deal with the new Petroleum companies and mass produced the gas car. The rest is history...

Now imagine, since 1912, instead of pouring all the massive human energy into building internal combustion engines, transmission units, fuel injectors, clutches, spark plugs, fuel pumps, oxygen sensors, etc, etc. ... if all this effort could be directed into just one thing: the battery ranges, since 1910 when all cosmopolitan areas already had electric car market established, where would we be now and how sophisticated would the battery powered cars be?

I think they answer is obvious...

I think they answer is obvious...

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Me, too. I don't think we'd be appreciably farther along than we are now. Battery tech advancements haven't been hampered by the lack of electric cars, there are plenty of other things that better batteries are needed for. Battery tech has had to wait for advances in other technologies. Could we have developed and built lithium-ion batteries in 1940? I don't think so.

It's one thing to have electric taxis in cities, it's another thing entirely to move people and freight across a country the size of the USA. Even today, with all the battery advances we've seen, internal combustion is in no way threatened by electric vehicles. It's taken 100 years for batteries to become good enough for a car like the Tesla S to exist and it's still only a curiosity for the vast majority of people, unaffordable and impractical.

I reiterate. The only way a pure EV will be widely practical as anything other than a city runabout kind of car is if they can drop the battery pack out and put a new, freshly charged, pack in its place in 10 minutes and get people back on the road. There's no way most people are going to invest 1st car money in a vehicle that can't make an ordinary day trip without pre-planning for down time to recharge.

Yes, I agree with you that for EV cars to replace gas cars the batteries need to improve a lot and charging needs to be made much more convenient. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

However, you are missing my point (and the OP's point). The significance of what Tesla has done is to show that in just a few years of work on batteries and motors a single company was able to achieve (and surpass) what countless car manufacturers still struggle with gas cars after 100 years of monstrous human and research effort, and environment resources. Tesla is really pointing out the obvious:... all we need is a battery and a motor; forget about all this crazy mechanical thrashing devices, superchargers and turbos and other insanity that we're used to for 100 years. ... It should have been much simpler than that.

Anyways, no need to duel on the past. But the point is once you drive a Tesla you'll feel that this is the direction to go. Not saying everyone stop buying gas cars, that's crazy. But there is really no point in killing ourselves trying to improve gas cars anymore; They will never reach what Tesla has already done.

... "Tesla-like" cars will be the future... and the past that should have been. :smile:

Moisted said:

The significance of what Tesla has done in just a few years of work on batteries and motors.....

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As much as I love the screaming V8-V12 IC engines, I am glad we have guys like Elon Musk around. To me, he is the new Steve Jobs.

Oil companies killed mass transportation and use of alternative fuels for transportation in the US.

Tesla didn't create any breakthroughs I'm aware of in motor or battery technology.
Electric motors are a mature technology and have been used in electric trains
and buses for decades. Motors can be around 90% efficient and have not
been the obstacle to making practical electric cars.

Tesla uses commodity batteries. They made some packaging changes
but they are using battery chemistry that was developed in response to
demand from other industry sectors.

What Tesla deserves credit for is the vision and determination to pioneer a new
market segment. They built their first cars on a Lotus chassis -- if Lotus (or any
of various other car companies) had really wanted to, they could have brought
an electric car to market themselves. But they didn't, and Tesla did.

Along the way, Tesla had to do all the work necessary not just to design a car
but also to build a new car company. I don't underestimate all the details
involved and work that took, and for that I give them credit. But Tesla Motors
didn't rewrite the book on either batteries or electric motors, at least not yet.

I also give Tesla credit for fighting the dopey laws in Texas and other states
that keep car manufacturers from selling directly. A number of such laws still
stand but Tesla has put a spotlight on them which I hope will change things.

Tom239 said:

Tesla didn't create any breakthroughs I'm aware of in motor or battery technology.
Electric motors are a mature technology and have been used in electric trains
and buses for decades. Motors can be around 90% efficient and have not
been the obstacle to making practical electric cars.

Tesla uses commodity batteries. They made some packaging changes
but they are using battery chemistry that was developed in response to
demand from other industry sectors.

What Tesla deserves credit for is the vision and determination to pioneer a new
market segment. They built their first cars on a Lotus chassis -- if Lotus (or any
of various other car companies) had really wanted to, they could have brought
an electric car to market themselves. But they didn't, and Tesla did.

Along the way, Tesla had to do all the work necessary not just to design a car
but also to build a new car company. I don't underestimate all the details
involved and work that took, and for that I give them credit. But Tesla Motors
didn't rewrite the book on either batteries or electric motors, at least not yet.

I also give Tesla credit for fighting the dopey laws in Texas and other states
that keep car manufacturers from selling directly. A number of such laws still
stand but Tesla has put a spotlight on them which I hope will change things.

Click to expand...

Tesla used a commodity battery size - but made significant updates and advancements to chemistry, electrodes, electrolytes, cooling systems, etc. These are NOT commodity batteries at all. Even the casing and the way the unit is sealed is a new design. They also didn't buy off the shelf motors they designed and optimized their own motors with pretty advanced features. They actually did rewrite the book on electric vehicles and were awarded numerous patents for their efforts.

- - - Updated - - -

Well Tesla just announced the P85D. 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds. Dual motors. Increased range. More efficient. Insane acceleration. Also announced driver assist features. Full digital controls. The car will self-park or actually drive under it's own power and come to meet you (private property only). Amazing stuff.

11.8 seconds in the 1/4 mile!

http://youtu.be/7quu551ehc0

Jimbo said:

Tesla used a commodity battery size - but made significant updates and advancements to chemistry, electrodes, electrolytes, cooling systems, etc. These are NOT commodity batteries at all. Even the casing and the way the unit is sealed is a new design. They also didn't buy off the shelf motors they designed and optimized their own motors with pretty advanced features. They actually did rewrite the book on electric vehicles and were awarded numerous patents for their efforts.

Click to expand...

Do you have any references?
What's different about the chemistry?

http://articles.sae.org/11923/

...We use a nickel-cobalt-aluminum (LiNiCoAlO2) lithium-ion chemistry for our battery cathode material. We don’t use a titanate, which has about half the energy density but is generally good at high charge rates. Some start-ups are using metal oxides; we fall broadly in that category. At this point we really have heavily customized that cell. We’ve totally custom-engineered that cell working jointly with Panasonic to create. It’s an automotive cell, tested to automotive standards. It doesn’t go into laptops anywhere. What keeps us in that general shape and size is the production and cost efficiency. We’re seeing price points that none of the larger-format cells are able to meet....

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Just look at what they did with the Roadster. Originally the pack delivered about 250 miles - the new pack with the next gen batteries provide 400 miles. Same number and size of batteries.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/08/06/tesla-roadster-400-miles-range-battery-pack-upgrade/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSox7mLbyE

I also have read most of the Tesla patents.

http://stks.freshpatents.com/Tesla-Motors-Inc-nm1.php

If you really want to get into the guts of the batteries this is an excellent video as well. Long and technical but explains why Tesla's chemistry choices of Lithium Cobalt Oxide is so much better than the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs

Tesla needed government money to get started. Henry Ford did it the old fashion way, he took the risk and worked his craft to make it. He probably did work the oil companies, but so what? That what make products cheaper.. low cost. Just because in today's missed guided greenie heads mind that oil must go, history will prove them wrong for one simple reason, building any wrong will never make it right. I will concede this, Tesla has targeted the famed 1% to sell his cars. Good for him. If you want to see hybrids be successful, just look at this years F1 and Le Man cars. Finally, I haven't seen any EV/Hybrid cars claim they as safe as a F1 / Le Man car. I bet Jules Bianchi won't be alive if he had to race a production EV/Hybrid.

jtrikakis said:

Tesla needed government money to get started. Henry Ford did it the old fashion way, he took the risk and worked his craft to make it. He probably did work the oil companies, but so what? That what make products cheaper.. low cost. Just because in today's missed guided greenie heads mind that oil must go, history will prove them wrong for one simple reason, building any wrong will never make it right. I will concede this, Tesla has targeted the famed 1% to sell his cars. Good for him. If you want to see hybrids be successful, just look at this years F1 and Le Man cars. Finally, I haven't seen any EV/Hybrid cars claim they as safe as a F1 / Le Man car. I bet Jules Bianchi won't be alive if he had to race a production EV/Hybrid.

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Tesla did not need government money to get started. Startup capital was all private. They incorporated in July 2003. It wasn't until 6 years later that Tesla took advantage of government low interest loans. And it was Tesla that fully repaid the government whereas Ford, did not.

And I'm far from being a "missed guided greenie head". I just like the performance aspect and not having to pay for gas.

Jimbo said:

http://articles.sae.org/11923/

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He says the cells are customized "at this point".
I see that Tesla has worked on the chemistry and my statement that
they use commodity batteries is out-of-date. My error; sorry about that.

Is it a fair statement to say that the original Roadster showed
how much was possible even with commodity batteries?
It was a better electric car than many people thought
was practical at the time.

Just look at what they did with the Roadster. Originally the pack delivered about 250 miles - the new pack with the next gen batteries provide 400 miles. Same number and size of batteries.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/08/06/tesla-roadster-400-miles-range-battery-pack-upgrade/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSox7mLbyE

I also have read most of the Tesla patents.

http://stks.freshpatents.com/Tesla-Motors-Inc-nm1.php

Click to expand...

I see patents in there on how to use batteries effectively -- how to package them,
charge them, and so on -- the kind of detail work I gave Tesla credit for.

I may have missed it, but I don't see any battery chemistry patents in that list.
That may mean Tesla is treating chemistry as a trade secret rather than
something to patent. But it does make it hard to know just how much they
have tweaked the chemistry (for those of us who are curious).

If you really want to get into the guts of the batteries this is an excellent video as well. Long and technical but explains why Tesla's chemistry choices of Lithium Cobalt Oxide is so much better than the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs

Click to expand...

I made it through most of that. I found interesting to see what
kind of equipment and methods they used to test batteries.

Yes, I think the chemistry stuff is trade secret "formula" kind of stuff. I mentioned the patents only as an indicator of how much Tesla has contributed to EVs. And as you know, Tesla then opened up all their patents as well.

I just drove the Tesla yesterday after reading this thread. Wow! What a car. The closest sedan i can compare it to is a CTS-V only faster. The instant tq is unreal. It is just so fast.

I felt the interior quality was good, but could certainly be better. The lack of the transmission hump in the middle seemed strange. I felt like they could have made it look a little nicer than putting a hole with grippy plastic. Trunk space is fantastic.

Overall though, I was very impressed. The price is really high, but I guess that is the cost of technology. If it was priced similar to a sedan in its size, it would be a no brainer to get a tesla over anything else. For double the price of my GS F-Sport, it is hard to justify the price. But if you have the money, go for it.

NetViper said:

I just drove the Tesla yesterday after reading this thread. Wow! What a car. The closest sedan i can compare it to is a CTS-V only faster. The instant tq is unreal. It is just so fast.

I felt the interior quality was good, but could certainly be better. The lack of the transmission hump in the middle seemed strange. I felt like they could have made it look a little nicer than putting a hole with grippy plastic. Trunk space is fantastic.

Overall though, I was very impressed. The price is really high, but I guess that is the cost of technology. If it was priced similar to a sedan in its size, it would be a no brainer to get a tesla over anything else. For double the price of my GS F-Sport, it is hard to justify the price. But if you have the money, go for it.

Click to expand...

The price is high. But the cost may be lower than expected.

Here's a Net Present Value spreadsheet that looks at total cost over 8 years.

http://www.teslacost.com/

I agree the interior could use a little work. It is Spartan.

Once you drive it...it's hard to go back. Can you imagine what the 690 HP P85D will be like?!