Whats it like owning a high mile nsx street/track car

Cayman S. Newer, great car, won't need as much work up front.

I love the E46 M3, have a 36 & 90, but the E46 overheats, BMW rubber falls apart and you'll need to replace all the bushings sooner than later, and the engine has rod bearing issues. While I love tracking properly built ones, it would be far more $ to get it to be reliable and as fun as an nsx or cayman s.

I (obviously) love the NSX, but it too will need some work. You can get ~260-280whp relatively easily with headers, intake and exhaust, but you'll probably need coilovers and I really dislike the US gear ratios and the stock LSD. Going with a trans rebuild, OS Giken LSD, and JDM gear ratios isn't cheap bit completely transforms the car.

Which leaves me to the Cayman S choice. Reliable, great handling, its a Porsche, put coilovers, tires, and brake pads and you're good to go.

stuntman said:

Going with a trans rebuild, OS Giken LSD, and JDM gear ratios isn't cheap bit completely transforms the car.

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+1 LarryB did my trans rebuild with the JDM gears and NSX-R diff and it transformed the car both on the street and track. With the JDM gear stack and 4.06 diff, my NSX was in the right gear for every corner at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock and High Plains Raceway.

Thanks again guys for taking the time to help me decide! I did a track day at NJMP yesterday in my fathers lotus elise (great car but not my style, wheelbase is too short and understeers like crazy and doesnt have enough grunt). I went down and did a trackday to mix it up with some advanced drivers and hopefully get some ideas on what I want to get and i'm still having trouble deciding. The e46 is out of the running now... too ordinary and everyone has them. Easily the most popular car there. The cayman is up there with the NSX but something makes me really want the NSX more.... I cant describe the feeling but the porsche just looks soft to me. The other two cars I'm considering is a 05-07 997 C2's or a gen 2 viper GTS. I know youre going to think im crazy because neither is like the nsx. My last car was close to 500whp v8 Rx7 and raw power is enjoyable and i've always wanted a 911. So there you have it. i'm down to three

NSX
997 C2s
viper GTS ....

I'm losing my mind! my problem is i've had tons of track and race experience and in some ways that makes the choice harder. Another thing that makes me like the NSX is that Billy Johnson Drives a pretty stock NSX on the street and track. A guy that races at that level should have a good idea of what is a good chassis to be in. Its also good to hear how much weight can be removed without sacrificing daily drivability !

Honcho said:

+1 LarryB did my trans rebuild with the JDM gears and NSX-R diff and it transformed the car both on the street and track. With the JDM gear stack and 4.06 diff, my NSX was in the right gear for every corner at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock and High Plains Raceway.

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Stock final drive is 4.06 while NSX-R is 4.23

For an NA car I would go 4.23 or 4.40 but since I'm going turbo and want a 190mph top speed, I kept the 4.06 final drive.


Hotlapkyle - Elise/Exiges are very well balanced and neutral cars with proper driving technique. If you give them (or an nsx) the inputs to understeer, they will understeer, or if you trailbrake and give them the inputs to rotate and oversteer, they will oversteer. Their neutrality make them such responsive and good cars.

Are you thinking a 997 Carrera 2 "S"?

I think I'd still pick a Cayman S over a C2 and maybe over a C2S.

To make your choice harder, I have an NSX, just bought a Gen 2 GTS, and recommend the Cayman S.

Tell us more about your track. Background, previous cars, do you have a DD? Is this going to be a DD that will be tracked or a track car or weekend toy or ocassional track and occasional street while you have another DD?

What are you looking for in a cars characteristics, handling, refinement, etc...?

stuntman said:

Stock final drive is 4.06 while NSX-R is 4.23

For an NA car I would go 4.23 or 4.40 but since I'm going turbo and want a 190mph top speed, I kept the 4.06 final drive.


Hotlapkyle - Elise/Exiges are very well balanced and neutral cars with proper driving technique. If you give them (or an nsx) the inputs to understeer, they will understeer, or if you trailbrake and give them the inputs to rotate and oversteer, they will oversteer. Their neutrality make them such responsive and good cars.

Are you thinking a 997 Carrera 2 "S"?

I think I'd still pick a Cayman S over a C2 and maybe over a C2S.

To make your choice harder, I have an NSX, just bought a Gen 2 GTS, and recommend the Cayman S.

Tell us more about your track. Background, previous cars, do you have a DD? Is this going to be a DD that will be tracked or a track car or weekend toy or ocassional track and occasional street while you have another DD?

What are you looking for in a cars characteristics, handling, refinement, etc...?

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hah i was talking about you and didnt even realized you posted on my thread. Thanks for the insight.

Lotus: I agree its very well balanced. Its an 05 and i was on all season tires yesterday and it doesnt have an LSD... so it was neutral in and pushed mid corner and doesnt have enough power to rotate when needed. probably has something to do with my inputs too.

Porsche: I love the 997 C2 "s" but I'm worried that any upgrades will break my bank. I'll probably never make that a full blown race car. just a fun car.

gen 2 GTS: Is my first choice with the NSX. Its unique, many people dont realize how capable that car actually is. Guys that start doing track days in those cars will learn the hard way and put it in the wall... great TQ with awesome rotation on turn-in stock. The GTS is great for people that can handle it but horrible for new drivers. You need a few items to be really fast in one. Everyone swaps motors to be able to de-tune cars to fill the HP TQ curve and meet a HP level for classes. THe viper has all that under curve fill you could want from the factory and makes huge power for very little money.

I started doing time trials with an Evo 8 and then built the car into super unlimited https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhD9ozlf9Xk&list=UUkizfReUjUq9pQAhNarBD3Q

Then I wanted a v8 and RWD so I threw an LS3 into an FD RX7. 487whp and 2700lbs (I regret selling that car) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvvvdulf2kQ&list=UUkizfReUjUq9pQAhNarBD3Q

Then I raced bikes for a while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4EihCYIIEE&list=UUkizfReUjUq9pQAhNarBD3Q

Oh and I have a DD car and a truck and car trailer ready to go. This car will be fun only.

Power-on understeer due to an open diff is my biggest complaint on the Elise/Exige as well, but with trailbraking and proper technique, you can reduce this problem, however you will not get the fun power-on oversteer that the car really lacks. An NSX with an old, tired diff will have the same frustrations, so you will need to spend a few grand for an OS Giken LSD, trans rebuild, and JDM ratios to make an NSX work properly to where you would want it to be.

The NSX, C2S, Cayman S, & GTS are all great and very neutral cars. However the C2S has the typical 911 driving dynamics of entry-rotation and on-throttle understeer. It will have the lest amount of throttle-on oversteer of the bunch, but like the Cayman S, will need the least amount of modifications to be a fun track toy.

You really need to consider not just the price of the car, but what you need to spend to have fun with it, and keep in mind the power. These are just off the top of my head, but do your HW for the actual prices. IMO these are the mods each car needs to be a fun track toy:

NSX : 3.0L 270bhp (headers, intake, exhaust can get you to just over 300bhp - 270whp)

-OS Giken LSD - $2,500
-JDM Gears - $1,000
-Rebuild - ?
-Coilovers (KW V3) - $2,000
-17x8 & 18x9.5 wheels
-235/40-17 275/35-18 Tires
-Brake Pads
-SS brake lines
-Water Pump and Timing Belt - $2,000
- NSX-R Wing - $1,500

Viper Gen 2 GTS: 8.0L 475bhp (smooth tube intakes, and high flow cats can get you just over 500hp - 430whp)
-If you get a 96/97 with the cast wheels, you will need aftermarket wheels
-18x10 & 19x13 wheels
-Tires
-SS lines
-Brake Pads
-Tom's 40mm Rear Caliper - $1,000
-Coilovers (KW V3) - $4,000
-Spark Plug Wires & Plugs - $250
-High flow cats (A MUST) - $400
-Exhaust (A good idea) - $1,100-2,200
-Billet Power Steering pulley and bracket - $300

Cayman S: 3.4L 290bhp
-Quaife LSD - $1,500
-Tires
-Brake pads
-Coilovers (KW V3) - not necessary but nice - $3,000

Carrera 2 S: 3.8L 355bhp (376bhp with X51 package)
-Tires
-Brake Pads
-Coilovers (KW V3) - not necessary but nice - $3,800


I love the FD RX7 with an LS motor in it. All of the above options will have less power than what you had in that car. It really depends on what you're looking for, but I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. S2000 or C5/6 Z06s are good options too.

Just so you know, if you think NSX parts might be expensive wait till you price out some go fast goodies for a Viper, I have several friends that own Gen2 and Gen3 Vipers and have tracked both, most of the hardcore track guys have moved on to Gen3 cars, I have two close friends that have ACR-X's and track them at least 12-15 weekends a year. I do most of the track prep for these guys and all I can say is there is a Viper Tax, it may be similar to a Porsche Tax but if you think it should cost $100 add the "Viper Tax" and it will cost you $160.00. The other issue is there are fewer and fewer places to get aftermarket parts for the Vipers, and some of the old parts vendors have some of the specialty parts locked up and are really sticking it to the guys that need them.

The Vipers have their issues as well, mainly transmissions, rear ends, and half shafts. Drive them at 80% of what the car can do and they are bullet proof, push them harder and the drivetrain will have issues. You can get a TransZilla and that should be one less think you have to worry about, but the 2008 Gen3 has had at least two trans, two rear ends and I forget how many half shafts. The car makes 610whp NA and he runs R6's and A6's so that may have something to do with it but non the less it has had its share of parts thrown at it.

The 2010 is an ACR-X sealed motor but is on the 2nd trans. These two guys stopped tracking their Gen2s because the Gen3 was more reliable.

They are great cars on track and in the right hands are extremely fast, If you have some time to kill and want to see a bunch of guys running their Vipers on track head over to my buddy's YouTube channel and check out the videos.
https://www.youtube.com/user/tooblueracing

Dave

Damn! you guys are helping me so much but now i'm even more flooded with good info thats making my decision harder lol. I know I cant afford the buy in of a gen 3 coupe.

Dave: I cant seem to find any prices on the tranzilla or son of tranzilla, do you know offhand what they cost? If I did the trans would a gen 2 be a good choice?

The smart choice would be the Cayman S and the C6z06 is probably the best speed/reliability per $$$ but I just dont get excited about them.

Billy, what was your thought process behind getting the Gen 2 viper? Have you tracked yours yet? any video? Its VERYYYY hard to find incar video of a well driven Gen 2 on youtube. I'm patiently waiting for yours.

I know I could be happy running a stockish HP nsx as long as I could beat on it worry free. The car is so good I would build it to run in a TT class and have fun. I'm still stuck between the NSX/cayman S/gen2 Viper and a new idea i've been playing with. I've been talking to Brunton Cars about their new Stalker XL v8. 1,600lbs with a 530hp LS3. looks like crap but you cant buy more speed for 40 grand ready to race. Oh and one more thing on my mind. The guys at Renegade hybrids are just about to release their cayman S V8 swap kit! This is a huge factor because I would always have the option to throw an LSX in one of the best cars ever!

DDozer - I don't think there's a significant "Viper Tax", not anymore than there is an "NSX Tax". Other than coiloves being a little bit more, its really not that bad. Plus the Viper Spec Son of Tranzilla is ~$3K and anything American, like the T56 trans, is cheap when compared to anything Porsche or even for the NSX.

I have not really heard of many transmission issues with the Viper. For the most part they are pretty bulletproof cars. Some things to keep in mind:

Gen 2 GTS: Can get a good one in the 30's.
-450 (actually 475bhp)
-96&97 17" cast wheels crack, do not track them.
-97 17" forged wheels are good, but the 18" wheels are better.
-Any gen Viper wheel will fit any gen Viper. 18/18, 18/19, etc...
-96-00 cars do not have ABS and they have a lotus elise rear caliper that is useless. Need $1K rear caliper upgrade.
-96-00 have Forged Pistons
-96-99 have a lopier 708 cam that sounds more like a hot rod at idle.
-01-02 have Cast Pistons "Creampuff motors"
-01-02 cars have ABS and a much larger rear brake caliper piston and a good brake bias.
-They all can run warm at low speeds (traffic) but are typically good once moving.
-ACRs are desirable.
-998 Chassis recall is a free recall to add triangulated braces in key areas of the chassis.
-You can put Gen 3 heads and intake manifolds on Gen 2s.

Gen 3 SRT10: are starting to become cheaper than a Gen 2 GTS. Mid-30s. Coupes for High 40s.
-500hp from slightly bigger bore and stroke. Common piston & rod to Gen 3 Hemi. Better flowing, lighter intake manifold with shorter runners for higher RPM power. Better flowing head.
-Bigger grille and radiator
-Better A/C
-Exhaust crosses over behind driver and its hotter than Gen 2 (aftermarket exhaust w/o crossover much better and louder)
-Brake calipers are much larger (4 pot front and rear) BUT the bias is HORRIBLE. The ABS takes care of it but piston wise is not good.
-Slightly better and more refined than GTS.

At the end of the day, all of the chassis are very similar and the handling dynamics aren't very different. I chose a 97 Gen 2 because I think it's the best looking car (Gen 5 is a close 2nd) and I drooled over a B&W Gen 2 and an NSX when I was a kid. I have tracked many Gen 3's when instructing at Skip Barber. I've tracked many Gen 3-4s and ACR-Xs and they are all fundamentally still a viper. Very little inherent differences, like how you can make a regular NSX into handling like an NSX-R, vs a Carrera S will not handle like a GT3 with coilovers. I have not tracked mine yet but i've had plenty of fun with it. It all depends on what you're looking for in the car.

There are not too many good HPDE viper guys. They either are turned into full blown track cars (many of them are still not that great) or they just put around the track on an HPDE day. This guy has the most videos i've been able to find and he's not that bad:

RT/10:

for perspective from someone who's been in the track nsx scene for 18 years ......the vast majority of nsx trackers are first and foremost nsx lovers/owners ....not the other way around...

So much great advice here, this post should be made sticky.

I really cannot add anything else beside what it has been already mentioned.

Hotlapkyle said:

Dave: I cant seem to find any prices on the tranzilla or son of tranzilla, do you know offhand what they cost? If I did the trans would a gen 2 be a good choice?

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I can get you in touch with the two friends I have that have tracked both Gen2 and Gen3 cars and you can get many of your questions answered. If you do go the Viper route I would suggest you get the car in the hands of Erik Messley to do the chassis setup and he would also make a great instructor for some one on one in the car. Erik is the Viper Guru and I always defer to him in all things Viper. Let me know if you need more info in a PM and I will get you to the guys I know and if you buy a Viper I can get you involved with Erik as needed. I am not trying to sway your decision just give you another data point in your equation for finding the right car. If you plan on putting in a bunch of track time, Viper size tires are another thing to consider, you will need a much higher tire budget and some of the better R-Comp tires are not available large enough to fit the Viper. The cars I have worked on have actually been fairly good for tire wear but these guys run Conti and R6's and get about 12-14 heat cycles before the tire gives up and in Viper sizes that is about $1800.00 in tires for a two or three day weekend at the track. That is way outside my tire budget, I run NT-01s and get about 12-15 events out of a set and can run them to the cords if need be before the tire goes off completely, in NSX sizes the NT-01 setup is under a grand and last me almost the entire season. We do have tires sizes in the R6 as well I just choose not to run them due to cost.

stuntman said:

DDozer - I don't think there's a significant "Viper Tax", not anymore than there is an "NSX Tax". Other than coiloves being a little bit more, its really not that bad. Plus the Viper Spec Son of Tranzilla is ~$3K and anything American, like the T56 trans, is cheap when compared to anything Porsche or even for the NSX.

I have not really heard of many transmission issues with the Viper. For the most part they are pretty bulletproof cars. Some things to keep in mind:

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Agreed when looking at Viper, Porsche and some things NSX there is a "TAX" especially when compared to anything for a C5 or C6, but thats life. My only comment about higher priced Viper bits when compared to the NSX is that the NSX as long as you keep the car in the 400whp or stock power levels things do not really seam to brake and therefore you can avoid the TAX. The Viper and I am not sure about the Cayman, has issues that will require more than just routine maintenance to keep it on the track. Again this is all relative to the driver and how any car is driven. Drive anything beyond its limits and it will brake. The only other thing I can say is the Viper is lets say "Simple" as not to offend anyone. Think machete and not scalpel. They are however just as easy to work on and once the belly pan is off everything is easy to get to.

Dave

DDozier said:

I can get you in touch with the two friends I have that have tracked both Gen2 and Gen3 cars and you can get many of your questions answered. If you do go the Viper route I would suggest you get the car in the hands of Erik Messley to do the chassis setup and he would also make a great instructor for some one on one in the car. Erik is the Viper Guru and I always defer to him in all things Viper. Let me know if you need more info in a PM and I will get you to the guys I know and if you buy a Viper I can get you involved with Erik as needed. I am not trying to sway your decision just give you another data point in your equation for finding the right car. If you plan on putting in a bunch of track time, Viper size tires are another thing to consider, you will need a much higher tire budget and some of the better R-Comp tires are not available large enough to fit the Viper. The cars I have worked on have actually been fairly good for tire wear but these guys run Conti and R6's and get about 12-14 heat cycles before the tire gives up and in Viper sizes that is about $1800.00 in tires for a two or three day weekend at the track. That is way outside my tire budget, I run NT-01s and get about 12-15 events out of a set and can run them to the cords if need be before the tire goes off completely, in NSX sizes the NT-01 setup is under a grand and last me almost the entire season. We do have tires sizes in the R6 as well I just choose not to run them due to cost.



Agreed when looking at Viper, Porsche and some things NSX there is a "TAX" especially when compared to anything for a C5 or C6, but thats life. My only comment about higher priced Viper bits when compared to the NSX is that the NSX as long as you keep the car in the 400whp or stock power levels things do not really seam to brake and therefore you can avoid the TAX. The Viper and I am not sure about the Cayman, has issues that will require more than just routine maintenance to keep it on the track. Again this is all relative to the driver and how any car is driven. Drive anything beyond its limits and it will brake. The only other thing I can say is the Viper is lets say "Simple" as not to offend anyone. Think machete and not scalpel. They are however just as easy to work on and once the belly pan is off everything is easy to get to.

Dave

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Dave,

I PM'd you, could you please reply me back whenever earliest possible.

Thanks,
Rahul

docjohn said:

Good advice from above.......Personally if I was not already an nsx owner/ lover who wanted a track/street car with a mid-engine design I would not be looking at 20 y/o cars.....2012 Cayman and be done.

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docjohn said:

for perspective from someone who's been in the track nsx scene for 18 years ......the vast majority of nsx trackers are first and foremost nsx lovers/owners ....not the other way around...

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Boy this guy with the funny looking NSX typed exactly what I was thinking. He should be a doctor he's so smart! :tongue:

Kidding aside, the NSX is not a good bang for the buck car. When you buy one today some of the money is going towards nostalgia and rarity. Neither of those things will help you on the track. For the same money you can get a C6 Z06 which is neither nostalgic nor rare so it is price accordingly. For the same money you get twice the HP and 1/3 the age.

My point is, the NSX is an old car that is becoming "collectable" to a degree. If you goal is for a track car I would personally spend my money on something better suited, dollar for dollar.

I still feel the driving dynamics and behavior of the car was ahead of its time and in some ways better than the Z06 and many modern sports cars, even if the Z06 creates more cornering Gs.

The NSX is very reliable and has a very stiff chassis. The Viper is also built like a tank but the chassis is no where near as stiff, needs the 998 recall, and greatly benefits from various chassis braces to prevent alignment changes on track. But once done, the car is a pretty reliable tank.

S2000, Z06, a Caymans make financially more sense, but that might not be what he's going for. Mod for Mod, and S2000 is faster than an NSX (with OEM 5spd trans) but I enjoy driving an NSX more.

I can't just buy a car because it would make a good track car. I also have to like it and it has to speak to me. Intellectually I know a Z06 is a very capable track car but I just don't feel a connection to it or interest in owning it beyond that.

I recently tracked my NSX a few times, then (for reasons detailed elsewhere) went and test-drove all the usual track car suspects - S2000, Cayman, etc etc etc - and it was the E46 M3 that ended up touching my soul. It's different for everyone.

So I guess I'm echoing everyone else in this thread - buy a car you like, then take it to the track. Being the fastest guy out there doesn't matter. Being the happiest (& most satisfied with and fulfilled by your machine) does :smile:

bngl3rt said:

I can't just buy a car because it would make a good track car. I also have to like it and it has to speak to me. Intellectually I know a Z06 is a very capable track car but I just don't feel a connection to it or interest in owning it beyond that.

I recently tracked my NSX a few times, then (for reasons detailed elsewhere) went and test-drove all the usual track car suspects - S2000, Cayman, etc etc etc - and it was the E46 M3 that ended up touching my soul. It's different for everyone.

So I guess I'm echoing everyone else in this thread - buy a car you like, then take it to the track. Being the fastest guy out there doesn't matter. Being the happiest (& most satisfied with and fulfilled by your machine) does :smile:

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You said it perfectly... The NSX and Gen 2 viper do that to me. They were the two cars that blew me away when I was younger. I'm worried about the HP level of the NSX still.

Aaron94T said:

Boy this guy with the funny looking NSX typed exactly what I was thinking. He should be a doctor he's so smart! :tongue:

Kidding aside, the NSX is not a good bang for the buck car. When you buy one today some of the money is going towards nostalgia and rarity. Neither of those things will help you on the track. For the same money you can get a C6 Z06 which is neither nostalgic nor rare so it is price accordingly. For the same money you get twice the HP and 1/3 the age.

My point is, the NSX is an old car that is becoming "collectable" to a degree. If you goal is for a track car I would personally spend my money on something better suited, dollar for dollar.

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lol..I did alot of research when crafting my replies...:biggrin:....The one thing that the nsx brings to the table that i can't find anywhere short of a lotus is the commanding driver position and line of site....no other sports car has been designed with such a low dash,I feel claustrophobic driving anything else :redface:

McLaren F1

...........true...........and we know what car gave inspiration to the designer of that amazing machine.

stuntman said:

DDozer - I don't think there's a significant "Viper Tax", not anymore than there is an "NSX Tax".

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+1 on this. Back in the day the "Viper Tax" was their as compared to a higher volume car like the Corvette. However, they are old now and there are lots of parts readily available. I would definitely say that NSX parts are more expensive due to the lack of volume. For example a SCer for a Viper is $6500 and it adds 200hp versus a $11,000 NSX SCer that adds 100 hp. The same can be said for exhaust systems as NSX exhausts can climb to $3000+ which is insane for what they give versus the Viper which has an exhaust made by all major US brands.

stuntman said:

Gen 2 GTS:
-96-99 have Forged Pistons
00-02 have Cast Pistons "Creampuff motors"

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One quick correction on the years of the forged vs cast piston cars. The 2000 IMO is the least desirable as it has no abs and no forged pistons.

stuntman said:

Stock final drive is 4.06 while NSX-R is 4.23

For an NA car I would go 4.23 or 4.40 but since I'm going turbo and want a 190mph top speed, I kept the 4.06 final drive.

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You're making the assumption that your turbo motor will retain the 8,000 RPM redline. My 3.5L stroker redlines at 7500 RPM and this of course proportionally affects the top speed. Right now Charlotte is RPM limited using the 5sp and 4.06 to just over 173MPH as I confirmed with GPS on my birthday earlier this year. That's why I want to go with the 6 sp which should get me to 202 MPH.

Hotlapkyle said:

Whats it like owning a high mile nsx street/track car

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It's great as long as that car is an NSX. I almost threw up each time I saw someone mention a German car. WTF? Do you really want to be seen in a hideous little Hitlermoble that has an engine behind the rear axle? The Kool-Aid is strong my padawan, resist it you must!

^itll be 8,500rpm

stuntman said:

^itll be 8,500rpm

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And I'm Mary Poppins!

By the way, I live about 20 minutes from you in Palm Beach. I'd like to toss you Charlotte's keys so you can take her for a spin. Peter Cunningham had a go with her at TRC. I'd love for you take her for a spin and share your impressions with me. I'll PM you my email and phone number.

Edit: Gee, what a surprise! Can't PM you because your inbox is too stuffed. Email sent instead.

Billet crank, stock stroke, forged pistons and rods, setup race proven by FXMD should prevent the Poppins. The NSX has one of the best rod ratios of any production car, might as well make use of it and rev it out!

I look forward to your email.