Article on why manual shifting transmissions are being phased out

I just recently bought an R8......I test drove cars with the r-tronic and the six speed back to back.....bought the manual.

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Drove a GTR as well. The GTR shifting was a bit more refined than the R-tronic....but both were boring. If I was using as a daily driver, or competively.......than hands down Auto/DCT wins hands down. It does take the fun factor out for me, personally.

are you going to mod the r8?

You can't compare an R-tronic R8 with a proper twin clutch. the R-tronic is just shocking - I mean abysmal.

greenberet said:

It's market and legislation driven.

It would be interesting to see the demographics of who still orders a manual transmission. It may well be old(er) men while young people who never learned to drive stick are happy with a PlayStation-like DCT.

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You may be right about that! lol With younger drivers not having manuals around to enjoy because of the ugly situation that the elderly market created, it's a catch 22. Hopefully there will still be hold outs like Porsche and Chevy since the new NSX is going to be terrible anyway.

Adamantium said:

You can't compare an R-tronic R8 with a proper twin clutch. the R-tronic is just shocking - I mean abysmal.

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I wasn't.......I was comparing it to a GTR, which also has a single clutch and to a six speed in another R8.

Doc, I promised myself I would leave it alone, as the cost to mod anything on it is pretty stupid in terms of payout to reward. But, having said that, I just ordered an exhaust that I got a good deal on, and am toying with the idea of a twin turbo. I got a price of $15k, and the S/C kits are all north of $20k. The turbo setup kinda depends on how much snow we see this winter to be honest. If it's a really good snow season, I may just get a V10 and call it a day.

Which GT-R are you talking about because the R35 Nissan GT-R is a twin clutch like the s-tronic, pdk, dct etc.

The dealer told me it had a single clutch......but now after reading your statement and looking it up it appears as if I have been mis-informed. So let me now say that the clutch in the GTR felt no different than the R-Tronic of the Audi.

jwmelvin said:

One correction: the F430 F1 transmission is not a dual clutch. I've driven one and found it pretty clunky at low speeds. I don't know about the Gallardo.

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the Gallardo and Aventador have a single clutch, the new Huracan has a dual clutch transmission.

the GTR also has a dual clutch transmission, the previous Audi R8 did not.

NA1MT said:

The dealer told me it had a single clutch......but now after reading your statement and looking it up it appears as if I have been mis-informed. So let me now say that the clutch in the GTR felt no different than the R-Tronic of the Audi.

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that's quite amusing that the dealer doesn't know the specifics of the car they're trying to sell.

the R-Tronic of the R8 wasn't a very good transmission. painfully slow to upshift, and would downshift by itself, even when you wanted to hold a higher gear and drive out on the torque curve of the mighty V10, annoying. but the new DCT in the R8 makes it a very different car. it makes a massive difference, simply massive...

Elistan said:

By the way, that jerkiness you feel coming off the gas in a dual-clutch car...? That's an example of the driver having the same mechanical connection to the drivetrain as in a manual.

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No, I think you misunderstand. The mechanical connection I speak of is having the ability to decouple the engine from the transmission in a variety of situations, like the one I gave, by pressing in with your left foot. That connection/point-of-control is lost

I've driven a few r tonic r8s, v10 and v8, I've owned 4 gtrs. The gtr twin clutch is an excellent gearbox. Incredibly fast, incredibly smooth, incredibly reliable. Don't be fooled by the horror stories of reliability until you understand why some fall and the level of permission dealers have to fix them instead of replace them. The gearbox was easily one of the best bits of the gtr.

Jaguar F-Type just announced a Manual gear box for next year. They seem to be listening to customers...
http://www.jaguarusa.com/news-and-events/news/2016-f-type-gains-awd-and-manual-transmission.html

latzke said:

No, I think you misunderstand. The mechanical connection I speak of is having the ability to decouple the engine from the transmission in a variety of situations, like the one I gave, by pressing in with your left foot. That connection/point-of-control is lost

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Ah, I see what you mean now. (I would have phrased it as "Losing mechanical disconnection to drivetrain.") Indeed, it's more difficult to put a dual clutch gearbox into neutral. Although that's an ability I've never missed when driving with a paddle shifter, and rarely use with a manual - when coming to a stop I'll use neutral, but when slowing down for a turn I usually heel-toe downshift - so for me it's not a point in favor of the manual. Actually, I just now thought of one situation where I've used neutral in a manual a lot - spins during autocrosses and track days. Never having spun a paddle shift car yet, I can't say how they handle that situation.

Hothonda said:

I have not heard of a single 2014 - 2015 991 GT3 owner who is unhappy with the PDK. No manual offered in that car & they still can't build enough.
I believe 1000 cars for the USA this cycle and nearly all are spoken for. Starting MSRP of $130K & most ending at $150K.
The percentage who track is slightly higher than the regular 991, but many DD too.

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Sorry had to raise this back from the recent dead for this statement. That's like saying you haven't heard of a single person who switched to Geico being unhappy with the switch. Do people switch to Geico when they find out it doesn't save THEM money? Food for thought...

Nero Tenebre said:

Man up. It feels just fine even with a race clutch.

The only reason they are being phased out is because of softies driving the market.

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Agreed. Adding that newer drivers coming of age don't care about driving like generations of past. Frankly, shifting would just be a further inconvenience to them on top of having to lift their faces out of the phone to drive in the first place.

NA1MT said:

It does take the fun factor out for me, personally.

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Agreed!! It feels like being part of the car when doing the manual shifting.

Why are manual transmissions being phased out?

Because men are becoming soft, lazy, and princess-girl like!


Another consideration:
Manual transmission cars make it MUCH more difficult to text and drive.

Automatics almost encourage texting & driving...they are flat-out dangerous...LOL!


Seriously, manual = better mileage. Automatic = lower emissions.

I care more about my mileage than emissions....

GBL1 said:

Why are manual transmissions being phased out?

Because men are becoming soft, lazy, and princess-girl like!


Another consideration:
Manual transmission cars make it MUCH more difficult to text and drive.

Automatics almost encourage texting & driving...they are flat-out dangerous...LOL!


Seriously, manual = better mileage. Automatic = lower emissions.

I care more about my mileage than emissions....

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I agree with you on all points except that modern autos are getting the same or better MPG compared to their manual counterparts. So really, all that is left is driver involvement and distraction discouragement. I loathe automatics...but just wanted to clear that up

GBL1 said:

Why are manual transmissions being phased out? Because men are becoming soft, lazy, and princess-girl like! Another consideration: Manual transmission cars make it MUCH more difficult to text and drive. Automatics almost encourage texting & driving...they are flat-out dangerous...LOL! Seriously, manual = better mileage. Automatic = lower emissions. I care more about my mileage than emissions....

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Perhaps you are comparing apples to oranges here.

The new DCT transmissions are not automatics in the traditional sense with a torque converter between the engine and gear box.
The DCT's have clutches for a direct coupling between engine and gearbox, the same as a traditional manual.

What is different is the method of changing gears.
Instead of the driver using a floor mounted shifter to select a gear and his foot to operate the clutch, he uses a paddle or some other device to send an electrical signal to a solenoid that operates the clutch and selects a different gear.
The mechanism is faster and safer (two hands on the steering wheel) than the older floor shifter/clutch pedal.
This results in better acceleration, better mileage and lower emissions.

JD Cross said:

Perhaps you are comparing apples to oranges here.

The new DCT transmissions are not automatics in the traditional sense with a torque converter between the engine and gear box.
The DCT's have clutches for a direct coupling between engine and gearbox, the same as a traditional manual.

What is different is the method of changing gears.
Instead of the driver using a floor mounted shifter to select a gear and his foot to operate the clutch, he uses a paddle or some other device to send an electrical signal to a solenoid that operates the clutch and selects a different gear.
The mechanism is faster and safer (two hands on the steering wheel) than the older floor shifter/clutch pedal.
This results in better acceleration, better mileage and lower emissions.

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DCT...auto... it still removes driver involvement. Sure you can flap the paddles, but you don't have a clutch to depress and release. You don't have to time anything. No rev matching on downshifts that you have to coordinate.

Technically, it is faster and less prone to driver error. But if it was art, who would want a computer printing a perfect representation of what we see? Aren't the irregularities and character of the painter what makes the art stir one's emotions?

Accel Junky said:

But if it was art, who would want a computer printing a perfect representation of what we see? Aren't the irregularities and character of the painter what makes the art stir one's emotions?

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Removing ignition points, carburetors and column shifters also removed driver involvement. Would you want those back?

Comparing irregularities in a painting is like having a notchy gearbox compared to a smooth shifting gearbox.
Would you want a notchy gearbox and difficult gated shifter?

JD Cross said:

Perhaps you are comparing apples to oranges here.

The new DCT transmissions are not automatics in the traditional sense with a torque converter between the engine and gear box.
The DCT's have clutches for a direct coupling between engine and gearbox, the same as a traditional manual.

What is different is the method of changing gears.
Instead of the driver using a floor mounted shifter to select a gear and his foot to operate the clutch, he uses a paddle or some other device to send an electrical signal to a solenoid that operates the clutch and selects a different gear.
The mechanism is faster and safer (two hands on the steering wheel) than the older floor shifter/clutch pedal.
This results in better acceleration, better mileage and lower emissions.

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The internal workings of how it changes gear don't matter when:

three pedals = manual transmission

two pedals = automatic transmission


Cool accessory for two pedal cars:
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?mai...6&products_id=12&zenid=,ZrMWTij1-QuUZWnanvQa3



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JD Cross said:

Would you want a...difficult gated shifter?

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Gated shifters ARE NOT difficult, plus the sound they make is music!

(how long have you been driving manual?)

GBL1 said:

(how long have you been driving manual?)

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51 years and ready for the DCT in the new NSX.

My comment was really directed at your point that "Seriously, manual = better mileage. Automatic = lower emissions." which is not true so I thought perhaps you didn't understand how DCT's worked.

I also found that a 348 gated shifter was much more difficult than an NSX shifter

JD Cross said:

Removing ignition points, carburetors and column shifters also removed driver involvement. Would you want those back?

Comparing irregularities in a painting is like having a notchy gearbox compared to a smooth shifting gearbox.
Would you want a notchy gearbox and difficult gated shifter?

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Some people do enjoy those things. Hence the muscle and classic car enthusiasts. Me...I like the reliability of fuel injection but I have noticed that every car I get that is newer the engine runs smoother and smoother and I lose that visceral feel.

I have experienced 35+ manual gearboxes that I have personally owned (and many more that I've just driven) and the smoothest shifters weren't necessarily the best to use.

Hopefully enough people will speak up and vote with their wallets to keep the choice alive. I think we can all agree that having a choice in gearbox benefits everyone except the manufacturers' budget.

JD Cross said:

Removing ignition points, carburetors and column shifters also removed driver involvement. Would you want those back?

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drivers never controlled carburettors or ignition points so it's a flawed argument and I don't understand why you mention column shifter

DCT will be faster and likely more efficient, manual will be more involving and that's about it, DCT is not the problem by itself, but having no choice is for some of us...

JD Cross said:

51 years and ready for the DCT in the new NSX.

My comment was really directed at your point that "Seriously, manual = better mileage. Automatic = lower emissions." which is not true so I thought perhaps you didn't understand how DCT's worked.

I also found that a 348 gated shifter was much more difficult than an NSX shifter

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O.K., and your are right that the NSX shifter is superior to a 348 shifter...but I loved shifting my 308 and a weekend loaner 355 Spider. I just don't see gated shifters as being difficult. YMMV...

areout said:

drivers never controlled carburettors or ignition points so it's a flawed argument and I don't understand why you mention column shifter.

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Perhaps you're not an old guy like me so you've not experienced driving in the 60's
Trust me with a carbureted, ignition points, column shifter car in cold weather you were very much involved with the operation of those components.
Trying to start a car in winter involved all kinds of carburetor/choke adjusting, filing ignition points ( we all had a points file in the car) and a sloppy column shifter with a cold transmission was very involving.

Early fuel injection had bugs and many decried the passing of the carburetor etc. etc.
I've you've grown up with fuel injection, electronic ignitions, modern shifters you did not experience the reason why those advancements came about.

Having enjoyed the advancements in cars over many years I can't wait to have a modern DCT transmission.
Braking, downshifting, and trying to control a car with one hand is a lot of activity to get right and I would say I rarely have put all those actions together perfectly.
And sometimes if you get ahead of yourself it can be dangerous.

I think those who demand a manual just need to buy a car with one and not bother complaining about a car that doesn't have a manual.
Of course the manual will be missed but not by me.