Sears Point/Sonoma Raceway March 7/8

I'm registered in Saturday's A group and would love to see a good turnout of Primers. It's a Trackmasters event so they always get a great turnout of well prepped track tools. Garages should be available so sign up and come on out for some good times at the best NSX road course in the west. Hope to see you all there.

I'm really looking forward to this event. Last September I had an epic battle out there with several very quick GT3's before my day was cut short by a blown head gasket. Can't wait for round 2

http://trackmasters-racing.com

It was fun to get out there and see what's what. Nice meeting you guys there. I am glad I took your advice and did not bring my car. I was already looking at helmets in the store wishing I did bring the car. It looked like fun. Maybe some light auto cross, suspension tuning, and getting a feel for the added power and Then I will bring it out on the track.
Although, I am really not a competitor by nature. I could care less about proving I can drive better or faster then someone else. I would just like to do it for the joy of motoring. Good luck on your next race Rob.
A.J.

Sears Point Raceway 03/07/2015 Report

I was out at Sears Point Raceway this past weekend (03/07/2015) for a TrackMasters HPDE. The last time I was out there was last September when I blew a head gasket in the afternoon session so I had some unfinished business. It was a sold out event with all the usual suspects including two beautifully prepared Ferrari 458's, one Challenge Car and a Speciale. As usual, a huge contingent of Porsches, including four GT3"s (2 RS's) and several very nice air-cooled 911 race cars along with a couple of 914/6 GTU race cars.

NSX's were well represented by Don's (nsxnut) sweet S/C NA1, Armando's twin turbo Driving Ambition prepped NSX race car (500+RWHP/2200lbs) and myself. We had a good turnout of NSX Primers in attendance as well, with Roman (Solidol), Harry (SFNSXguy), AJ (JINKS), and Jorge (quicksilver55). It was so great to have a nice representation of NSX's. Thanks for coming out guys and supporting the cause.

My goal for this event was the same as always; Drive to the Track, Kill'm All, Drive Home.

Here in Northern California, the Porsche 911 GT3RS is by far and away the weapon of choice for HPDE track days. These are amazing cars, packed with 50yrs of factory racing development including; traction control, launch control, stability control, 4-wheel steering, center nock-offs with huge tires and wheels, massive Brembo carbon ceramic brakes etc etc.

Targeting these cars is no easy task. They have a definite horsepower / brakes / tire advantage over my 2800lbs, 400rwhp NA1. Weights are roughly the same, depending on set-up. Patients is the name of the game when stalking these alpha-cars and their alpha owners. The typical GT3RS driver is at the top of the food chain in the Porsche pecking order. They pit together and keep to themselves to the most part. On track, they don't use their mirrors much and the last thing they are expecting is a vintage ricer to be keeping pace with them. Passing GT3/RS must be done very carefully as they rarely give away a position on track without a fight. Having a HP disadvantage to them only makes getting past them that much more challenging. My usual method is to stalk them for a couple laps before applying just enough pressure to either force a mistake from them or hopefully get a point by. The video below is a typical encounter with a GT3 driver. I had been stalking him for several laps and he was clearly holding me up but he refused to yield the position. He was clearly over-driving the car and his tires were going off when he finally points me by only nail the throttle at the same time. A typical #porscheprickmove. After that my fangs came out and I went in for the kill and finally got past him by late braking him into T4.

The fun just began when I finally got past him and on the next lap Armando's 2200lb. 500+HP twin turbo NSX racecar blew by me entering T11 then got real loose exiting T11. Later, on the next lap, he attempts to pass a couple of backmarkers between T5 & T6, drops a wheel off and does a full 360 spin! Just when I thought things might calm down a little, a real yahoo in a 240SX packing a smallblock V8 squeezes inside of me entering the T6 carousel, then exiting T7 he over-steers and goes careening off track! Pretty much sums up the weekend.

By the end of the day I had accomplished my goal of passing every Porsche, GT3RS or otherwise on track. Obsessed? Maybe a little :wink: but its good to have a plan and a goal. The car ran fantastic all day long with absolutely no issues what so ever. Just like Honda intended. The 6th and final session, with was my quickest, mostly due to that the moving chicanes had called it a day leaving me with a nice empty track to play with. Good times!

Video Link: Here

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Photo's provided by Solidol

I am still laughing at the point by drag race from the GT3 Driver. You need a new Avatar......Might I suggest.

Or rear bumper sticker

solidol said:

Or rear bumper sticker

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sticker"S" one for each kill, you could fill up the bumper in a weekend.

What tire are you on, they do not look like NT-01s are they RR's? If so give me your thoughts on the two tires if you have run the NT01s.

Dave

DDozier said:

sticker"S" one for each kill, you could fill up the bumper in a weekend. Dave

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How about an iron cross for each 'kill' like in WW2. If I ever find the time I'd like to put a video together just of me passing Porsche set to Wagnor's Flight of the Valkeries

DDozier said:

What tire are you on, they do not look like NT-01s are they RR's? If so give me your thoughts on the two tires if you have run the NT01s.

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For this event, I was on BFG R1's. I've used Hoosier R6's, Yokohama A048's Toyo R888's, Nitto NT01's on this car. Of these, I'm really liking the BFG's. IMO, they wear better than Hoosiers and don't heat cycle as fast while only giving up a little speed to the Hoosiers. I guesstimate that they are approx. 1 sec. per lap faster than NT01's and maybe .5 sec. slower than the Hoosiers. BFG also makes a R1-S which I hear is on par with the Hoosier R7. I might try those next...

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DDozier said:

I am still laughing at the point by drag race from the GT3 Driver. You need a new Avatar......Might I suggest.

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That's awesome Dave. I used to own a track prepped Honda RC51 and blazoned across my race fairing I had big sticker on both sides that said: 'One Liter Duc Eater'.

1K2GO said:

For this event, I was on BFG R1's. I've used Hoosier R6's, Yokohama A048's Toyo R888's, Nitto NT01's on this car. Of these, I'm really liking the BFG's. IMO, they wear better than Hoosiers and don't heat cycle as fast while only giving up a little speed to the Hoosiers. I guesstimate that they are approx. 1 sec. per lap faster than NT01's and maybe .5 sec. slower than the Hoosiers. BFG also makes a R1-S which I hear is on par with the Hoosier R7. I might try those next...

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The R1-S in the 275/35/18s are on sale at TireRack for $100.00 off at $300 a tire. A couple of the guys I run with tried the R7 at COTA, weather issues we had aside the R7 is a better tire than the R6, we just need to see if it last longer and is more consistent over its life. I tried the R1 a few years back and my memory of the tire was it took a long time to come in at least a lap longer to get up to temp and would get greasy on hot days after about 6 laps. I can not find my notes but if I remember correctly they lasted about 16 heat cycles before the drop off was noticeable.

I am thinking about trying a set of the Toyo RR to see how they do. I really do enjoy the consistency of the NT-01, and I have 4 years of lap times on the same tire so it is hard to make a change.

Dave

Love the video Rob.
But I am kind of confused now. I thought this was not a race but a driving instruction course? I mean no offense, I am just trying to figure this out as a newcomer. I met the owner of that brand new gt3 which he just bought. He is unfimiliar with his power obviously as was the owner of the AMG gul wing Mercedes. That guy pulled into the track, ran inside, bought a helmet and hit the track. Which is what I probably would have done if I brought my own car. Which gives me an uneasy feeling of experienced track people such as yourself up against people who can read horsepower brochures and car/driver brochures, or have the ability to supercharge a nsx, such as myself. How does one go about tracking a car without buffoons risking your investments?

Thanks AJ, the GT3 driver was an ASS-HAT and had no business running in the A group and niether did his buddy in the 240SX or for that matter the NSX race car. Just because you're able to write a big check doesn't automatically give the skills necessary to keep you and the rest of us from a very unhappy ending.

The problem with this particular event was that it was a combined moto/auto HPDE. This reduced the Auto run groups from 4 down to 2. By doing this there will inevitably be drivers moving up to the 'A' group that have no business running with us. The majority of cars and drivers in the A group should have been in the 'M' or mixed group. If this were a cars only HPDE, the track officials would have sorted out the novices and dropped them down to a lower run group. You will never see me in a combined auto/moto event again. Normally, at Trackmasters events, the 'A' group is occupied by well experienced track rats that have a clue. This was just plain nuts and I'm very relieved to have come away unscathed.

I would recommend a NASA HPDE for you and anyone else just starting out. They are extremely hands-on with instructors, drivers meeting between each session and a well structured upgrade system based on verified on-track experience. Not my cup of tea but great for noobs. :biggrin:

Thanks for the input. I wanted to tear ass down that track so bad in my x but given your previous recommendations, I held off. Which is what I see no one else did in the videos. Please note, I listen and keep an open mind to everything and everyone in our tight knit NSX community and I never mean any offense to you and your accomplishments. I only, "want to learn" and bypass all bullshit.
Thanks again.
A.J.

DDozier said:

The R1-S in the 275/35/18s are on sale at TireRack for $100.00 off at $300 a tire. A couple of the guys I run with tried the R7 at COTA, weather issues we had aside the R7 is a better tire than the R6, we just need to see if it last longer and is more consistent over its life. I tried the R1 a few years back and my memory of the tire was it took a long time to come in at least a lap longer to get up to temp and would get greasy on hot days after about 6 laps. I can not find my notes but if I remember correctly they lasted about 16 heat cycles before the drop off was noticeable.

I am thinking about trying a set of the Toyo RR to see how they do. I really do enjoy the consistency of the NT-01, and I have 4 years of lap times on the same tire so it is hard to make a change.

Dave

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Agreed, the NT01 is hard to beat in terms of cost, consistency and durability. It's best advantage is that you can drive them to the track. Where it falls short is all out pace.

I'm pretty sure that BFG has been tweaking and developing the compounds on the R1 & R1-S. I was pleasantly surprised with how consistent and predictable they were compared with the Hoosier R6. I've been told that the R7 was developed to address the short heat cycle issues of the R6 and are marginally quicker than the BFG R1-S. I am willing to sacrifice a second per lap for predictability and increased durability (heat cycling) so likely my next set will be R1-S.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of fastest lap time achieved on each tire I've used at Sears Point Raceway.

Toyo R888, Yokohama A048, Nitto NT01: 1:52:xx

BFG R1: 151:xx

Hoosier R6: 150:xx

At Sears Point, the limiting factor is not horsepower, its adhesion. I have yet to try a non DOT race tire on this car but I am very tempted to in order to crack the 1:50 barrier. I think with the right race tire, my car is a 1:48 car out there with me in it. Put the ghost of Senna in my car and its probably already there with DOT R compounds.

1K2GO said:

I have yet to try a non DOT race tire on this car but I am very tempted to in order to crack the 1:50 barrier. I think with the right race tire, my car is a 1:48 car out there with me in it. Put the ghost of Senna in my car and its probably already there with DOT R compounds.

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Oh just take another hit off the CFCP and order some slicks, pick your weekend wisely as that is all you will get out of a brand new set.

Have the R1 been able to surpass the R6 as far as heat cycles go. Do you think they will not fall off until after say 16-18 cycles? Have the R1-S been getting any where near 16 heat cycles. For us the R6 does not usually make it past 12-14 heat cycles before they are done. They always have lots of tread left even with the heavy Vipers and Vetts. We usually then take them to Putnam Park and run them off till they cord. Putnam has an incredible mechanical grip level in the type of asphalt used but it is know as the cheese grader by all the locals and is the place R6's go to dye. A brand new set of R6 will be corded within 4 session and a proper slick will not likely make it 2 sessions. NT-01s can be run off in a three day weekend.

Have any of you guys tried tire warmers to prevent the complete heat cycle from hot to cold between sessions from happening. The tire warmer makers claim that if you can keep the tire temp in the 135*f range between sessions that the tire does not take the shock of a typical heat cycle and therefore will last longer before seeing the effects of a normal heat cycle. I do not know if this works but it sort of makes since to me. When we were sitting in the garages at COTA waiting for the rain to pass by and the ambient air temps to get above 32*f we were thinking the warmers would have really helped our out laps, but beyond that if you could extend an R6 or R7 to 18-20 sessions before they hit the fall off point you might actually be able to use the tire up instead of heat cycling it out. The warmers are cheap enough that if you could add 4 sessions to set of R6/R7 the warmers would pay for themselves in less than a season, plus they would have made a nice space heater in the cold garages that weekend.

Dave

I was thinking about suggesting tire warmers to minimize temp drop between sessions. Bikes use it all the time. Granted it's easier to put on the bike.

Now this would help to make things right

Yeah, it wouldn't take much to push me over to the dark side of race tires... It's not a real imperative as the car is working great on DOT's and I am able to chase down anything with a license plate on them. With my current set-up I haven't been able to crack 1:49.xx at Sears though but I've come ever so close. Just not quite enough power, grip and of course talent.

I get 10-12 cycles out of the Hoosier R6 before they fall off. I've got 12 cycles on my current set of BFG R1's and they still look great and I ran my FTD on the 12th cycle.

Love me some tire warmers. If they can really add 4 cycles, then why not.

Speaking of cheese grader/meat grinder tracks. If they use Chuckwalla Valley Raceway for this years NSXPO track event. Be prepared to go thru a lot of rubber. That surface is a belt sander.

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solidol said:

I was thinking about suggesting tire warmers to minimize temp drop between sessions. Bikes use it all the time. Granted it's easier to put on the bike.

Now this would help to make things right

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Good enough for that 458 Challenge car, but will come with a weight penalty.

liftnot said:

track temp is highly likely be 100F+ out there. I'll bring my JDM scooter instead.

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and then there's that of course... Last time a ran there I got heat stroke... in March.

DDozier said:

I am still laughing at the point by drag race from the GT3 Driver. You need a new Avatar......Might I suggest.

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How'a this? 2 more makes me an ace. :biggrin:

Finally got around to watching the video of that 991GT3, glad that there were no major incidents at the track.

I am sure that you could have dive bombed the GT3 at many points at the track but from the video it was clear that the GT3 driver was a bit over his head and seemed more interested in his own driving rather than been worried about people behind him .

Trying to pass people like that is a pain since you don't know if the driver has any awareness of where you are relative to his car. His lines were all messed up, hitting the brakes so many times going into the T8-T9 complex seemed unreal.

I suggest for you to print out a logo of moving chicanes since what you killed was a poorly driven GT3, perhaps hand them out at the track as reminders for people to be courteous to others when sharing the track.

Knowing they had little to no situational awareness, I was treading very lightly, not wanting to trade paint. This was the end of the session and the pressure was clearly taking its tole on him and his tires. That was the last 6min. of a 20min. session. There were 2 GT3's following him that I had to get through prior to this. The trailing GT3 was the only one that gave me a legit point-by and lifted. I had to wait patiantly for this guy and his buddy to make a mistake before I squeezed thru. None of them had any business running in the A group. Frankly, I don't know why they install mirrors on those cars cuz they clearly weren't using them.

Either way, I had a blast seeing Rob's car blaze around the track. Even though there was noobs on the track with high dollar cars and such, everyone there seemed very friendly and willing to talk with inexperienced track folks like me. Rob, you may have a runner up next year;-)

Jinks said:

Either way, I had a blast seeing Rob's car blaze around the track. Even though there was noobs on the track with high dollar cars and such, everyone there seemed very friendly and willing to talk with inexperienced track folks like me. Rob, you may have a runner up next year;-)

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There is a code at the track and you experienced an element of it. There's a strong camaraderie to these events, (most) everyone is open, friendly and willing to help if you have a problem. I usually bring way more tools and spares than I really need just in case someone needs something. I even bring my SAE standard tools for the guys driving domestics (big hammers for Chevy's, bigger hammers & a hacksaw for Fords & a good fire extinguisher for Dodge's). Chivalry is alive and well at the track and a good sense of humor helps too.

I will never forget my first on track experience some 30+ years ago at Riverside International Raceway (RIP), I showed up just to observe and the next thing I knew, a half dozen guys descended on my car installing harnesses, extinguishers an loaned me a helmet. Obviously it left a lasting impression and I conduct myself in the same manner ever since.

If you're interested, my next event is June 6th at Sears Point with Trackmasters & Speedventures. No motorcycles! I am hopeful that this event will have a much higher level of skill in the 'A' group and a much lower 'yahoo' factor. Game on!

I think I might just be up to that Rob. By that time my car should be up to par to compete with some street level cars and I should know it's limits by then. Plus it is right before my b-day. Will this event have lower entry groups for someone who is new?

1K2GO said:

There is a code at the track and you experienced an element of it. There's a strong camaraderie to these events, (most) everyone is open, friendly and willing to help if you have a problem. I usually bring way more tools and spares than I really need just in case someone needs something. I even bring my SAE standard tools for the guys driving domestics (big hammers for Chevy's, bigger hammers & a hacksaw for Fords & a good fire extinguisher for Dodge's). Chivalry is alive and well at the track and a good sense of humor helps too.

I will never forget my first on track experience some 30+ years ago at Riverside International Raceway (RIP), I showed up just to observe and the next thing I knew, a half dozen guys descended on my car installing harnesses, extinguishers an loaned me a helmet. Obviously it left a lasting impression and I conduct myself in the same manner ever since.

If you're interested, my next event is June 6th at Sears Point with Trackmasters & Speedventures. No motorcycles! I am hopeful that this event will have a much higher level of skill in the 'A' group and a much lower 'yahoo' factor. Game on!

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Jinks said:

I think I might just be up to that Rob. By that time my car should be up to par to compete with some street level cars and I should know it's limits by then. Plus it is right before my b-day. Will this event have lower entry groups for someone who is new?

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Not 1K2GO, but I can comment a bit.

Sadly track event organizers are not allowed to have instruction at Sonoma Raceway due to contractual issues with the company that offers driving/racing instruction on site at Sonoma.

Furthermore if this is going to be your first track event, Sonoma is not the best track to learn given that it is one of the most technical tracks on the West Coast. You are probably better off attending a track event at Thunderhill or down south at Buttonwillow or Streets of Willows at WSIR, all 3 tracks have few walls and plenty of runoff areas.

Then again you could be someone who has been go-karting or racing/tracking motorcycles so this might not apply to you.

Thanks for the help. I'm still unsure if I want to track or not as I have a lot invested in the car on a semi blue collar salary.But damn it sure looks fun. I may start off doing the auto crosses at the Oakland coliseum just to get a real feel for the cars limits.

2slow2speed said:

Not 1K2GO, but I can comment a bit.

Sadly track event organizers are not allowed to have instruction at Sonoma Raceway due to contractual issues with the company that offers driving/racing instruction on site at Sonoma.

Furthermore if this is going to be your first track event Sonoma is not the best track to learn given that it is one of the most technical tracks on the West Coast. You are probably better off attending a track event at Thunderhill or down south at Buttonwillow or Streets of Willos at WSIR, both tracks have few walls and plenty of runoff areas.

Then again you could be someone who has been go-karting or racing/tracking motorcycles so this might not apply to you.

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