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Better 15/16 or 17/18 for R-Comps ?

R-Comps

  • 15/16 work!

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • 17/18 much better than stockies!

    Votes: 6 46.2%
  • 16/17 Ideal setup

    Votes: 4 30.8%

  • Total voters
    13

HDA

Experienced Member
Joined
11 May 2011
Messages
369
Location
Houston, TX
Or are they equivalent?

I have a NA with basic bolts on (suspension, exhaust, headers, etc) and I am debating whether to get R-compounds for the stock 15/16 or for the 17/18.

I can't hide that I am also moved by the cost, there is quite a difference in price between the 2 setups.

Is the 225/ OK for a basic NSX? It seems like a small surface for me but I also like the idea of running on wheels that were "engineered" for the NSX...
 
The way I look at it is stick to 15/16 until you make mods that overpower traction level tires provide. That's cost aside which is 2x times. And is significant if you attend a lot of events. If you go 17/18 make sure to get super light rims to minimize weight gain. I enjoyed hooning around with 15/16 wrapped in 200 wear rate tires ;)
 
There are various factors that come into play in choosing your rim size. Keep in mind that the size of the contact patch of the tires will be the same, since that depends only on the pressure in the tires and the weight on the rims. As mentioned by HDA, there's a significant price difference between the two sizes. There's also a huge difference in tire availability; you can find 8-10 different R comps in 205/50-15 and 225/50-16, whereas I think the Kumho Ecsta V700 may be the only R comp available in 215/40-17 fronts. Of course you can go to the wider 235/40-17, but then you have to deal with rubbing in the wheel wells - not a big deal on the track, but could be a problem getting there if you're not trailering your car. Which raises another advantage of the 15"/16" stock sizes - you can fit the set of R comps inside the NSX (as demonstrated here) and drive to and from the track on your street tires.

For all these reasons, I was always quite content using R comps in the stock '91-93 sizes on 15"/16" wheels. But I'm not competing, not looking for every last hundredth of a second in lap time, and I'm not as fast as some other guys are. If I really cared about every last bit of speed, then I'd probably be getting the oversized 17"/18" fitment, but only if I were trailering my car to the track.

HTH
 
I also intend to use the car just for fun trackdays and I somewhat believe that the 275 is a bit overkill in the rear.

I just installed some Koni + Eibach and test drove the car at the track this past saturday. Setup was 17/18. I noticed that I would bottom the shock in a few breaking points (!!!) and the wheels would rub during some "countersteer action". First I need to find out why was I bottoming a new koni but now I even more convinced about going with the 15/16 setup.
 
I've been very happy with 17/235 front and 17/275 rear R comps. No, I did not need to remove the fender liners. It has enough steering angle that my wife can still drive the car and turn it fine in tight parking lots etc. It's ideal for me.
 
275s are not overkill for the rear. However, 225s (and even 245s) are IMO too small for a rear tire. There's nothing wrong with the stock 15/16 wheels, but the track width is pretty narrow and wheel spacers will help give you a little grip by pushing the tires out a little. If you're decently quick, the 15/16 tires have less rubber volume and will wear out and overheat sooner than larger 17/18 setups.

The most common 17/18 setup is 235/40-17 and 265 (or 275) 35-18.

How low is your car to have it bottom the shock out under braking? If you bottom it out in braking, then most likely you'll have a horrible time entering a corner or from bumps during a corner.
 
I also intend to use the car just for fun trackdays and I somewhat believe that the 275 is a bit overkill in the rear.

I just installed some Koni + Eibach and test drove the car at the track this past saturday. Setup was 17/18. I noticed that I would bottom the shock in a few breaking points (!!!) and the wheels would rub during some "countersteer action". First I need to find out why was I bottoming a new koni but now I even more convinced about going with the 15/16 setup.

I have two sets of wheels for my current track setup, but in the beginning I ran on the 15/16 91-93 stockers with Kuhmo VictorRacers R-Comps. The 15/16 setup will yield a rather large sidewall in comparison to a 17/18 setup and with the larger sidewall comes more tire flex and a little less feel for what the tire is doing at the limits. These cars are setup very soft on stock springs and shocks so adding another layer of flex and softness in a taller sidewall can add to the disconnected feeling some may feel. It has been years since I have ran on the 15/16 setup mainly because the wheel and sizes really dates the cars appearance, and since I was buying new wheels and needed multiple sets staying with the 15/16 made little since to me.

What I have now is a set of Integrals (my first set of track only wheels) 17/17 with a fresh set of NT-01s as a wet and backup setup (205/40/17 & 275/40/17), and a set of TSW Interlagos 17/18 running NT-01s for my main dry setup (235/40/17 & 275/35/18). The front 235 will rub in the front inner fender liner but in 4 years of running them I have not had them get ripped out like others have. Ride height and proper wheel fitment play a huge roll in the ability to run 235s in the front. The rear 275 size in my mind is perfect for the car once some other small bolt on mods and alignment is setup properly as well. Stock and mild power increases can take full advantage of the 275 tire size, and as these cars age and the diff starts to wear the 275 offers more corner exit grip to the one tire that may be getting more Tq from the weakening diff.

If you are a faster driver it is not hard to exceed the braking limits of any of these tire sizes but the 205, 215, or 225 will be the limiting factor and since the 235 is the largest tire you can get under the stock fenders that is what I run. If I could run a larger front tire I would. The next limiting factor is spring rates, the OEM spring rates are great for street and spirited street driving but on the track with R-Comps the car will roll far too much, this roll will cause a lot of weight to transfer onto the outside tires. This can be a good thing if you are only utilizing about 80% of the tires available grip but as soon as you start to push harder and use more the weight needs to be more evenly distributed and the car needs to corner flatter. The use of higher rate sway bars can prolong the inevitable need for higher spring rates but you will need them as your abilities increase. You are using the Eibach spring and it is a progressive spring, it starts out softer than the OEM rate then as it is loaded progresses into a slightly stiffer than OEM spring rate. The Eibachs also do something that I have never really understood why a spring maker would want to do, they start off with a front spring rate higher than the rear and when loaded end with the rear spring rate higher than the front. This seems like a strange variable to have in play on a track setup. The Eibach have been out of production for a while so yours may be aged as well. Keep in mind a street car used for track use will always be a compromise on the track. You can find a happy medium but again it will be a compromise.

I run the Tanabe Spring (similar to the OEM Zanardi or TypeS spring rate and marginally stiffer then stock coupe rates) on the Bilstein shock with 1" sway bars in the front and a 7/8" bar in the rear, I feel I have taken this type of setup as far as I can and I am at the point where a coilover and more aggressive spring rates are needed to improve the cars ultimate corner grip. I am not sure I want to make the change as of yet, but the limit for me has been danced around if not already met. It sounds to me like your springs may have lost some of their spring if you are bottoming out the suspension during braking. Sway bars will not solve this issue and the only real fix is either replacement springs or complete coilover setup. You may also want to check your alignment and see were your front caster settings are at, these car like caster as much as you can get in there, if you are not running enough this could contribute to your spring compressing more. This is not a common thing to have happen so it is more likely you have weak aged springs that are sagging and as a result can not deal with the weight transfer under braking.

Best of luck

Dave
 
Dave yours is a great reply. Thank you.

About the car bottoming out, I am blaming the springs since i bought them used with unknown miles (konis are new).
In my old s2000 i lived the ground controls i had and i was hoping to replicate the combo without buying GC: wrong.

this is a video of sat at the track, gets sideways towards the end :). I was on A/S rears so you can imagine...just waiting to wear out.

The track is bumpy and on t1 coming down from the straight into the corner i would feel the front left bottoming out. I also feel a cluncking noise, the sway bar seemed to have moved by looking at the bushings marks - next upgrade will be a swaybar with endlinks

You made a great point about sidewalls, as the 15/16 are pretty chubby. Eventually an rcomp may stiffen things up but the road feel is undoubtedly lower compared to the 17/18.

http://youtu.be/zwcLH-xCyzE
 
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^I agree with everything Dave said about the tires, however he is a bit incorrect with his weight transfer and swaybar comments.

Body roll does NOT = weight transfer.

Increasing the swaybar size/stiffness reduces roll BY INCREASING weight transfer and loading the outside tire more. This resistance to roll puts more load into the outer tire. Increasing the roll center height and (separately) lowering the ride height or center of gravity reduces weight transfer AND body roll. This is the compromise of a swaybar: reducing roll and increasing weight transfer which typically reduces grip on that end of the car (Unless the there is a lack of camber to begin with and reducing the roll keeps the outer tire flatter which can result in a net grip increase).

HDA - increasing the front swaybar size will make the car track flatter in a corner, be more predictable, and reduce front grip to make the car more stable and easier to drive. The NSX has very low front roll centers and increasing the front roll resistance with bars is a very common practice for tracked NSXs. There's a reason the NSX-R has a big front bar...

I too don't really like progressive off the shelf lowering springs that much and would prefer a good linear spring rate on a decent aftermarket coilover.

0.02
 
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I feel I have taken this type of setup as far as I can and I am at the point where a coilover and more aggressive spring rates are needed to improve the cars ultimate corner grip. I am not sure I want to make the change as of yet, but the limit for me has been danced around if not already met. It sounds to me like your springs may have lost some of their spring.... Sway bars will not solve this issue and the only real fix is either replacement springs or complete coilover setup.

Body roll does NOT = weight transfer. 0.02

Can't agree more with what Dave said about tires. I have been looking/waiting for AM 15/16 wheels(like CE28N, PFC type) for a long time but they are just not avail. AND 15/16 tire combo is just as difficult to find if not impossible cuz the contact patch and the side wall flex matters a lot. With 235/40/17 NT-05 in the front, it had so much more grip than the 215 even on the street and the understeer is gone. good thing they don't wear as fast as the rear so its worth it to try it as it will instantly change the behavior of your car. I am sure with NT-01, it will have more grip.

Few of us had pushed/still pushing the envelope of what this great chassis/suspension can deliver. Some are forever happy with Yellow Bilstein/Eibach springs and Dali/CT bars as "best bang for the buck" sus. mod and the cost = $$$. Some have splurged for big Dali, KW/Koni/JDM coilover and found happiness there and the cost = $$$$. And there are a handful of us on Moton/JRZ/Penske 2/3/4, bladed ARB and the cost = $$$$x(2+) which means the tire selection must/should match up to the capability of your entire sus. set up is able to deliver and this cost is much much higher.

..."springs may have lost some of their spring" although this is true but its hard to quantify. spring/metal fatigue is difficult to model and "typically" if its 10^5-10^6 cycle, its usually not a concern. but using springs to control roll is not ideal although many are doing it does not make it right and none of us are racing for money. I used to think using stiff springs to control roll but why there are countless top road racing cars use blade to control roll w/ aero or w/o aero? I sheepishly asked Trevor Lee Harris(Google) for some "free suspension tips:rolleyes:" during a lunch break, he said "use the biggest roll bar you can get away with and use the softest but not soft springs to retain grip." Its ok to agree or to disagree with him. In order to have this condition(after thought about it for a few hours:redface:), you will need a big damper to control the shaft speed very very quickly at a given spring rate. Maybe this is one reason why Ryan set his frt bar on full soft:eek: but has Penskes and he is mucho rapido. He has skills I don't have.

Ditto on what Stuntman said about roll. "....reducing roll and increasing weight transfer which typically reduces grip on that end of the car", thus you need grippy tires and the ideal spring rate to work as one. Everyone has different set up and driving skills. What works for Ryan may not work for me but the tire technology has advanced quite a bit since 1991 and is worth it to try a pair nice new shoes.:wink:
 
..."springs may have lost some of their spring" although this is true but its hard to quantify. spring/metal fatigue is difficult to model and "typically" if its 10^5-10^6 cycle, its usually not a concern. but using springs to control roll is not ideal although many are doing it does not make it right and none of us are racing for money. I used to think using stiff springs to control roll but why there are countless top road racing cars use blade to control roll w/ aero or w/o aero? I sheepishly asked Trevor Lee Harris(Google) for some "free suspension tips:rolleyes:" during a lunch break, he said "use the biggest roll bar you can get away with and use the softest but not soft springs to retain grip." Its ok to agree or to disagree with him. In order to have this condition(after thought about it for a few hours:redface:), you will need a big damper to control the shaft speed very very quickly at a given spring rate. Maybe this is one reason why Ryan set his frt bar on full soft:eek: but has Penskes and he is mucho rapido. He has skills I don't have.

HE also has one of the best setup guys dialing in his shocks and the rest of his setup.

I still struggle with the entire roll, weight shift thing, I know they are all connected and all impact each other. I guess I need to better understand how to determine the correct spring rate, shock rates, bar rates, and how they work together to provide the best contact patch for a given tire grip level. It would seem that as tire grip increases the rest of the components would have to be changed to make better use of the increase. Without changing anything else the increase in tire grip would afford some benefit, but matching the suspension to the new tires ability would maximize the benifit. As far as springs go, It was described to me that you need enough spring to hold the car up and everything else is used to keep the tire on the road, but that is seemingly over simplified. If you add in Aero conditions the spring becomes an even bigger part of the entire system. Increase the tires ability to grip the surface and the amount of spring rate needed to counteract the increased cornering force is increased as well. My understanding is that is what the roll bars help to do. They borrow spring rate from the unloaded tire and transfer some but not all of the force back to the outboard spring and effectively raise its spring rate. Is this a correct statement? I'm starting to ramble.

Lets say a fast driver on NT-01s would benefit from a given spring rate, bar rate and shock setting, the same driver using a R6 would need to make changes to the suspension to take full advantage of the higher grip level. What changes would be needed to maximize the new tire choice?

Dave

- - - Updated - - -

this is a video of sat at the track, gets sideways towards the end :). I was on A/S rears so you can imagine...just waiting to wear out.

The track is bumpy and on t1 coming down from the straight into the corner i would feel the front left bottoming out. I also feel a cluncking noise, the sway bar seemed to have moved by looking at the bushings marks - next upgrade will be a swaybar with endlinks
http://youtu.be/zwcLH-xCyzE

You are definitely experiencing some major yaw rate on corner exit. That looked like a hand full towards the end. My car was exactly the same as that before I made the basic bolt on changes to the suspension, springs, shocks, non-compliant, sway bars, 235/275 tires, and alignment. I have been from where you are now to a slight push on entry with power on understeer and now I think I have my car as neutral as ever in the last 5 years of tracking it. All minor changes in ride height, rake, and alignment. I have a bunch of shock collar rings I can use to adjust ride height on the Bilsteins and also set the rake. All would be much easier with coil overs. The car is very responsive to alignment changes, a little change goes a long way. Once you get the wheel and tire on there that you plan on running for a while see how the cars acts then start working on your alignment settings, keep good notes and make one change at a time so you can see cause and effect.

Have fun and be safe

Dave
 
Erik indeed es de best. When you learn from the best, you don;t need to worry about the rest:wink:. This is where value does not = to price and few are willing to pay. I'm saving up as I'm waiting in line cuz I now have the bladed ARB 2.0.

Dave, I don't want to type my fingers to the bone and risk hijacking & turn into a mega thread as there are lots of expert opinions on this subject and such. Talking in person es best. you already have a good understanding of how the suspension works more than most. Its all physics and the secret is......there are no secrets. Its the combination of parts and how much you are able to extract the most from each. its very possible with what you have, (equip. & skills) you already max-ed out its potential which is great. I am sure you are familiar with all the Carroll Smith books. If you are looking for more, there is the Michael Milliken book. If you need more than that, you might need therapy. As you know, that last 1/10th will cost you mucho more than the 1st 1/10th.
http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html

I would say to the OP to buy the best/latest/sticky tires(15/16 - 17/18) that fits your budget/driving condition/weather/skills and see how the car respond and go from there. The tire technology has advanced a lot, it will make you feel like you are on rails.

".....The car is very responsive to alignment changes, a little change goes a long way." this comment is a testament of how stiff this chassis is, therefore, every non-rice mod you do counts. This is not the same as "other production" sports cars as some of us know and experienced only more hp can make it fast.

on another topic....this makes me feel really old:frown: .....R we beating a dead horse as many have moved on to later model cars? maybe its time to save up for a MP12 so it will drive for me and do it very fast.
http://jalopnik.com/porsche-engineer-explains-mysterious-third-pedal-in-cay-1690309167
 
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Can't agree more with what Dave said about tires. I have been looking/waiting for AM 15/16 wheels(like CE28N, PFC type) for a long time but they are just not avail. AND 15/16 tire combo is just as difficult to find if not impossible cuz the contact patch and the side wall flex matters a lot. With 235/40/17 NT-05 in the front, it had so much more grip than the 215 even on the street and the understeer is gone. good thing they don't wear as fast as the rear so its worth it to try it as it will instantly change the behavior of your car. I am sure with NT-01, it will have more grip.

Are we comparing ipads to ipads? :)

Did you try the NT05 on the 15s and on the 17s and can confirm that on the 17s they "had so much more grip"?
In 17 / 18 I can find a NT05/01 setup which is still not OK in terms of balance, as NT01 are stickier.

I DO NOT want understeer. Nein, no, niet, nada. I will probably buy a set of Sway Bars F/R as only front scares me to make it too "understeering"...
I keep on going back and forth on the tires and I now seem to be ready to pull the trigger on the 15/16 and see how it goes, if I "overdrive" the small setup.

In my video I am just having fun, I have all season rears that I am just waiting to wear out and I knew the 911 behind me has a camera so I wanted to play a bit :) :) Am I the only one who does that?! :D

Thanks for the very insightful comments. I feel old tracking an NSX but when a 997 Carrera S does not catch up on the straight...I kinda feel good :)
 
Did you try the NT05 on the 15s and on the 17s and can confirm that on the 17s they "had so much more grip"?
In 17 / 18 I can find a NT05/01 setup which is still not OK in terms of balance, as NT01 are stickier.
I would not recommend mixing R compound track tires (such as the NT01) with street tires (such as the NT05). Especially not on the track.
 
Did you try the NT05 on the 15s and on the 17s and can confirm that on the 17s they "had so much more grip"?
In 17 / 18 I can find a NT05/01 setup which is still not OK in terms of balance, as NT01 are stickier.

I DO NOT want understeer. Nein, no, niet, nada.

I have yet to try 15/16 set up so I am curious but there is no solutions to be found. I can confirm going from 215 to 235 NT-05 is a nice change of noticeable less understeer even on the street so going NT-01 should be even more so.
 
Are we comparing ipads to ipads? :)

Did you try the NT05 on the 15s and on the 17s and can confirm that on the 17s they "had so much more grip"?
In 17 / 18 I can find a NT05/01 setup which is still not OK in terms of balance, as NT01 are stickier.

I DO NOT want understeer. Nein, no, niet, nada. I will probably buy a set of Sway Bars F/R as only front scares me to make it too "understeering"...
I keep on going back and forth on the tires and I now seem to be ready to pull the trigger on the 15/16 and see how it goes, if I "overdrive" the small setup.

In my video I am just having fun, I have all season rears that I am just waiting to wear out and I knew the 911 behind me has a camera so I wanted to play a bit :) :) Am I the only one who does that?! :D

Thanks for the very insightful comments. I feel old tracking an NSX but when a 997 Carrera S does not catch up on the straight...I kinda feel good :)

IF you run a 235 NT01 up front with a 275 NT01 in the rear the car will be very neutral and the alignment, ride height, rake can be adjusted to make the car either over or understeer. Keep in mind that any car that is setup close to neutral given the proper or improper inputs and the car will under/oversteer. Front camber settings with the NT01 is key to making the front end go from feeling good to completely stuck. The rear end camber and toe settings can be played with to get the tail to move around a little or a lot. Just keep in mind that a lot of movement in the rear of these cars will sneak up and bite you one day. That is another reason I run the 275 rear, just a little extra insurance against the car snapping around should I do something really stupid. Rear tow links and the lower beam bushings are also needed to get control of the rear end tow when the suspension is loaded or unloaded, until you do them run more total tow to help stabilize the rear. Once the non-compliant pieces are in experiment with the rear tow settings until the rear of the car is moving around to your liking. You can make the rear of the car total stuck if that suits your driving style but I am faster with a little movement.

You did look like you were having a bit of fun on the street tires, you will not be able to do that on a set of NT01s. The rear will not brake away with any sort of progressiveness, it is more like stuck, stuck, stuck, gone. I know the larger setup is more money but the life of the NT01s is actually very good, you should see about 45-55 heat cycles out of a set of tires before they finally get worn to the cords. It is a tire you can actually use up. Unlike a lot of other R-Comps that heat cycle out before the tread is worn to the wear indicators. Since the tires last so long whatever decision you make you will have to stick with for a while.

Dave
 
Dave, I did run the NT01 till the cord on my old S2000 and loved the trackdays I was able to get out of them. Loved less the stuck stuck stuck gone feel but you get used to it...

$514 for a shipped set of Kumho XS in 15/16 is almost a no brainer, yet I ask if I should just go for the 17/18 and forget the "micromachines" setup as that's almost what everybody is running. I honestly cannot find a single person tracking the NSX with 15/16.
 
Dave, I did run the NT01 till the cord on my old S2000 and loved the trackdays I was able to get out of them. Loved less the stuck stuck stuck gone feel but you get used to it...

$514 for a shipped set of Kumho XS in 15/16 is almost a no brainer, yet I ask if I should just go for the 17/18 and forget the "micromachines" setup as that's almost what everybody is running. I honestly cannot find a single person tracking the NSX with 15/16.

The shortest 17" front tire in the XS is a 215/45/17 and it is taller than the 235/40/17 in the NT01, you will likely rub with the 215. If that is the tire you want to run even the 15/16 sizes are not ideal with a 205/15 and a 225/16. I really do not know what to tell you about the tire as I have never run on it but if you do want to run that tire it looks like a 16/17 is a better fit with a 215/16 and a 275/17.

Dave
 
You did look like you were having a bit of fun on the street tires, you will not be able to do that on a set of NT01s. The rear will not brake away with any sort of progressiveness, it is more like stuck, stuck, stuck, gone.
That tends to be true of most R compounds and is not a function of wheel/tire size.

Dave, I did run the NT01 till the cord on my old S2000 and loved the trackdays I was able to get out of them. Loved less the stuck stuck stuck gone feel but you get used to it...

$514 for a shipped set of Kumho XS in 15/16 is almost a no brainer, yet I ask if I should just go for the 17/18 and forget the "micromachines" setup as that's almost what everybody is running.
The XS is a street tire. And for track use, you'll get way better grip with R compound tires than you will with street tires, regardless of wheel/tire size. Just sayin'.


I honestly cannot find a single person tracking the NSX with 15/16.
wavey.gif


The shortest 17" front tire in the XS is a 215/45/17 and it is taller than the 235/40/17 in the NT01, you will likely rub with the 215. If that is the tire you want to run even the 15/16 sizes are not ideal with a 205/15 and a 225/16. I really do not know what to tell you about the tire as I have never run on it but if you do want to run that tire it looks like a 16/17 is a better fit with a 215/16 and a 275/17.
Again, the XS is a street tire, and if you're really looking for grip on the track, you're better off with R compounds. Regardless, though, 215 and 275 represent a pretty wide stagger, and handling may be less than optimal. If you're going with a 215/45-16 front, I'd recommend going no wider than a 255/40-17 rear. If you want R comps on 16"/17" tires, there aren't a lot of choices that work without rubbing, but the Kumho Ecsta V710 is available in 215/45-16 and 245/40-17. And will give you way more stick than the XS (which is a very sticky street tire, but it's still a street tire).
 
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$514 for a shipped set of Kumho XS in 15/16 is almost a no brainer, yet I ask if I should just go for the 17/18 and forget the "micromachines" setup as that's almost what everybody is running. I honestly cannot find a single person tracking the NSX with 15/16.

You may want to take a look at the Maxxis Victra RC-1, they are only available in the 17/17 or 17/18 setups, but I have heard good things about them if you can get ahold of them, supply seems to be an issue. They are supposed to be NT-01 like grip levels and life expectancy but at a slightly better value.

http://maxxisrc1.com/sizes

235/40/17 $175.00ea.
275/40/17 $200.00ea.
275/35/18 $230.00ea

Not sure if they will do it this year but last year if you bought a set of tires and a track day they would rebate $50.00 back after your track day was completed.

Dave
 
What about using a semislick tire on a 23 years old car?...
I guess they will make the whole differential part of the car much harder. Any action needed to prevent that the excessive mechanical stress of the grippy tires lead to a drivetrain failure?
Yes - I did install baffles on my oilpan, I was thinking more about the CV joints, etc
 
Not much else you can do besides rebuild the CV joints with redline grease.

If you are considering semislicks, then the oil pan baffle may not be enough. Have you considered an Accusump? There is currently one for sale at a great price here :wink:

Dave
 
Update: I purchased the BFGoodrich g-Force Rival ( 200 AA A )
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+Rival
bfg_gforce_rival4r_ci2_l.jpg

Stock OEM sizes for the 15/16, I will put them on this weekend with the next trackday scheduled sometime in April.
They look so small, I am going to be sideways at every corner...I was hoping to go larger than 225 on the rear but no chance.

I will keep you guys posted on the feedback from the track.
 
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