harsh Bilsteins?

I have the Bilsteins installed in my car, using the lower spring perch, and the handling seems notably sharper than the same year NSX I've driven with the stock suspension. A tech at my local high-end tuner (Excelerate Performance), who is a former Acura shop foreman, thinks the ride is too hard and wants to install either coil-overs and return the stock shocks. There does seem to be some impact harshness, but I wouldn't call the ride excessively hard. Does anyone have a similar experience with Bilsteins? Perhaps we could just set them at their higher perch point, returning the factory ride height - at the expense of handling, I imagine.

Tell him to buy a Lincon Town car if he prefers. It's your car and if you like the look and feel then stay with it. I had Bilsteins, H&R springs, and Comptech sway bars and my NSX handled great. Was it stiff, he'll yeah. However, it wasn't a daily driver and for a weekend toy it was exactly how I wanted.

I have the Bilstein shocks on my 92 (lower perch) with the OEM springs and they are not harsh at all.
Very much like the OEM shocks in my mind.

I see you are in CT, we should meet up sometime and see if yours are different than mine.

Ha! Just a guess, somehow i don't think "Lincoln Town Car" would resonate at Excelerate Performance. We have to change the right front shock, so I'll be interested to see if that changes anything.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, RJD1022 - that comparison would be very useful. The tech at Excelerate Performance tells me several NSXs come there for service, including one that's tracked and lowered more than our cars, but he didn't say anything about ride quality. I do recall - my test drive in the other '03 - was in April - that it seemed to have a more compliant ride than this car, but, as I said, did not have the sharper handling of my car. At the moment, I'm addressing issues at the right front caused by a town-created pot hole.

Bilstein shocks are amazing! Have them as well on my 92 with stock springs. I have never ever driven a sportscar that rides as well as this. Can't believe how anyone can say they feel harsh. Even my mom loves the ride quality!

Bernhard

I'm assuming you're on your stock springs... The Bilsteins is sold under their "HD" line up. This line up is known to be very harsh on some cars and simply just firm in other cars. Their damper tuning for the NSX falls somewhere in between but closer to firm. Everyone's opinions here, including myself, are very much subjective. It's the age old suspension damper debate - everyone's butt dyno is calibrated differently.

Several things affect "Harshness".
* tire pressure
* remaining tire tread
* sidewall aspect ratio
* sidewall stiffness
* springs (obviously)

When I had the Bilsteins on stock springs and later on Tein springs they felt very firm. Too firm for most socal city roads but felt great in the highway and backroads but far too much body roll for the track. This was on both 18/19 tires and 17/18 tires. They might have been fine on the stock 15/16 or 16/17 though, not so sure on the stock 17/17. They tuned these dampers to try to get the best bang for the buck under most conditions but with a non-adjustable damper you can only do so much.

BTW.. Tein has come out with their entry level "sport" oriented NSX coilovers. I would personally give those a try. I believe intro price is $900 or so.

My $0.02. They are the best performance oriented factory replacement dampers available out there but to really understand how good an NSX can feel like I would encourage you to visit a local NSX car meet (if there is one) and do a few ride alongs. It took me the good part of 10yrs, as a NSX enthusiast, amateur driver, and garage mechanic to understand how good an NSX can be with great dampers. Ignorance is bliss but, my god, a good set of well tuned dampers is worth their weight in unicorn blood.

Thanks very much for those insights - very useful information. I am curious that the Bilsteins would be harsh on some cars and not others, but I imagine tires certainly would play a major role; I can feel a difference after the tires warm up. I think the car feels fine on decent roads, but the tech has a lot of experience with NSXs - and also drove it when the tires were cold.

creeker said:

I am curious that the Bilsteins would be harsh on some cars and not others...

Click to expand...

They tune each damper model specific to the car. I believe Bilstein America does this over in East San Diego area. I've had 5 cars with Bilstein dampers.

Mitsubishi Montero - Bilstein HD - This was harsh. I hated them. The dampers were just too firm.
Isuzu Trooper - Bilstein HD - Was better in damping and really controlled the body roll and nose dive upon hard braking. Was firm but ok (not amazing).
NSX - Bilstein HD - You know already..
Toyota Tacoma - Bilstein 5100 - Amazing dampers for the price. Better than some 5x more expensive. Great street and off-road damper. After 4yrs i'm considering sending them back for a rebuild. Please note.. these are not the HDs
Subaru BRZ - Bilstein PSS - Firm. They were ok. A bit harsh in the rear but that's no fault of the damper. The stroke in the back is just too short and is an inherent problem with the 86 platform. It feels like they had to compensate on the rear damping to make it more firm than compliant due to the short stroke.. I don't know.

As you can see... There's a lot more to it.

If you subscribe to the... You-Only-Live-Once mentality spend some money on a great set of dampers like the JRZs. They have been unbelievably good for me.

Very interesting that you have such widely varying experiences with Bilsteins on different vehicles. I always have been very fond of Bilsteins, and used them on a number of my cars - BMWs, mostly, I think - with excellent results.

I think I'm totally subscribed to the do it now before you die school of thought, having bought my dream NSX for more money than I've ever spent on a car - that said, I'll look up the JRZs, as I've not heard of them.

Thanks again.

I started with Bilsteins on lower perch and OEM springs. The ride was stiffer than with the stock dampers. but not unbearable. Then, I wanted to improve my cars handling on the track. So I installed Dali Street/Track front sway bars, Zanardi rear sway bar and the NSX-R upper and lower chassie braces. My car's ride harshness appeared to remained the same, but the car was much stiffer. Then I installed Zanardi springs. This addition definitely made my car's ride harsher, but I did not mind due to my car's better handling on the track. Because I made suspension modifications incrementally, each change in harshness was noticeable, but acceptable. However, if I had made all the modifications at one time, I might have disliked the resulting harshness at first.

This car has CompTech/Dali bars on it. Perhaps going back to the OEM bars would address impact sharpness? At least, as perceived by the tech.

How low is your car?

Bilsteins out of the box are ok but I always wondered if they would gone with that valving if they had to tune them 20 years later. I think they valved them for stock 15/16 rims. With larger wheels people use nowadays I think they would have valved them differently. So I'm NOT surprised some people with 17/18 of even 18/19 have the impression of them being a little bit too stiff but not as stiff as Konis which are a little bit outdated.

My revalved set should arrive soon and I've asked them to customize a revalving beginning a little bit later (lower damping forces at 131 mm/s, less harshness, more friendly to my back).

Bilstein has a good reputation esp. on German cars, Porsche, BMW and so on. But sometimes it seems that they lack some experience with (rare) Japanese cars.

It's what I understand to be the typical drop with Bilsteins on on the lower spring perch, about 3/4". I wasn't aware that Bilstein would valve the shocks to your specs. My car has the stock 17" rims, so changing wheel diameters is not a factor. There's a very interesting companion thread about using sway bars to address ride (as well a roll stiffness), rather than using stiffer springs.

creeker said:

My car has the stock 17" rims, so changing wheel diameters is not a factor.

Click to expand...

I guess it is. I can't proof it but think that Bilstein didn't re-engineer them when the tire size changed on the NSX.

Sway bars won't change much in ride comfort.

creeker, thanks so much for starting this thread. My /94 is still on its stock shocks/struts and I've been thinking that it may be time to renew these (however I don't perceive any degradation in handling -- no bounce or anything like that -- but then again, you get used to something if you drive it all the time). I thought I might go Bilstein but given what I'm reading above I am rethinking that. I'm up here in MI with horrible roads so don't want to do anything that makes ride any firmer. I'll be watching this thread with interest. Possible I will just bite the bullet and do some OEM shocks/struts (assuming they are still available -- I know certain years springs are no longer available).


Best,
Jeff

I have the Bilsteins in my current car and have had in my previous. I felt no harshness change in my 05. I did feel an improvement in handling slightly but definitely nothing harsh. i would have removed them the same day if i did.

BAVARIA said:

...I'm up here in MI with horrible roads so don't want to do anything that makes ride any firmer....

Click to expand...

You'll loose ride comfort with any shock other than OEM (or KW V3).

goldNSX thanks for the input. I'm thinking that if the OEM parts are still available new I should probably buy those soon before they are no longer available! Now, if someone here in MI is running a car with the KW V3s I'd be interested in getting a ride in that car.

Best,
Jeff

From the companion suspension thread: "A stiff front bar helps to limit the suspension travel at the heavily loaded side and provides some of the benefits of having stiffer springs without the constant harshness of using stiffer springs." I would assume therefore a stiffer bar also would affect ride quality. Since we have to replace the right front shock, thanks to my unfortunate experience with an unmarked town pot hole, my tuner got a price of slightly more than $300 for an OEM shock - $330, I think? So I guess they're available. I have the original set for my car, and we talked about going back to them, but the car does handle better with the current setup.

The 'heavy loaded side' is the only scenario where a swaybar would help. In all other (not so extreme) cases a swaybar reduces the L/R wheels to move independently (if you imagine a go-kart with no suspension at all). To a certain degree that's desired but just adding a stiffer swaybar can do more worse than good if you don't tune the whole suspension. Given the rest of your suspension a swaybar will do nothing to the ride comfort. It may even worse things a little bit as you induce a stiffer spring between the wheels in normal driving scenarios. A stiffer swaybar asks for more rebound of the shock.

Yes, that was my point - maybe it isn't such a big factor but it might influence things. Just speculation on my ignorant part.

RJD1022 said:

I have the Bilstein shocks on my 92 (lower perch) with the OEM springs and they are not harsh at all.
Very much like the OEM shocks in my mind.

Click to expand...

That's been my experience with the Bilsteins on my '91.

If someone thinks the Bilsteins are substantially harsher/firmer than the stock shocks, I wonder if the comparison is being made between relatively new Bilsteins, and stock shocks that are old and worn out. Old shocks can seem softer, but if they do, it's probably time to replace them. Make the comparison with relatively new stock shocks and there shouldn't be a huge difference in ride comfort.

nsxtasy said:

That's been my experience with the Bilsteins on my '91.

If someone thinks the Bilsteins are substantially harsher/firmer than the stock shocks, I wonder if the comparison is being made between relatively new Bilsteins, and stock shocks that are old and worn out. Old shocks can seem softer, but if they do, it's probably time to replace them. Make the comparison with relatively new stock shocks and there shouldn't be a huge difference in ride comfort.

Click to expand...

I came here to post this ^^^^^

The Bilsteins (even with the stock springs on the lower perch- like we have on our red car) are in the same comfort / performance range as the stock parts.
We know this because we replaced the stock parts with new Bilsteins BEFORE the OEM units were worn out.
IMHO, anyone reporting that the Bilsteins ride harder than fully functional stock units are not properly calibrated..........

If you want the best of both worlds, spend the money on the KWV3's (like we have on our purple car), otherwise the Bilsteins with the stock springs (even on what passes for ROADS in MI) is the best bang-for-the-buck solution out there.


Brian

Since I have to replace one Bilstein, I think I will stay with them, but revert to the stock ride height.

creeker said:

Since I have to replace one Bilstein, I think I will stay with them, but revert to the stock ride height.

Click to expand...

Bilstein shocks come with a lifetime warranty for the original buyer. As long as you still have your receipt, contact Bilstein about any Bilstein shock that has failed.