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Turbo kits for dummies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gel5TY_ZQw4

This is how much real performance a roots type blower adds to a NSX compared to average street tuner NA cars
(CTSC without inter-cooler is overall system as Group-M SC) both roots blowers and known to have similar performance

watch this unbiased video and make your own assumptions of the real gain, and then decide if it's what you want
notice how the K&N supercharged car sways (because its top heavy) and how the minimal increased acceleration was not even enough to pass the others.

I don't know how some people justify talking about about "performance" while discrediting track results. which is how performance is measured/proven.
"performance" is not measured on a Dyno.
 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gel5TY_ZQw4

This is how much real performance a roots type blower adds to a NSX compared to average street tuner NA cars
(CTSC without inter-cooler is overall system as Group-M SC) both roots blowers and known to have similar performance

watch this unbiased video and make your own assumptions of the real gain, and then decide if it's what you want
notice how the K&N supercharged car sways (because its top heavy) and how the minimal increased acceleration was not even enough to pass the others.

I don't know how some people justify talking about about "performance" while discrediting track results. which is how performance is measured/proven
"performance" is not measured on a Dyno.
Pardon me asking, but I thought this was a turbo kit question in California thread? I understand you are all about weight reduction and how superchargers are a waste of money, however this is coreening way off topic more and more. The original poster lives in California. Therefore, a super tuned na engine or turbo engine are in direct violation of state laws and deemed for immediate impoundment or a hefty fine. Lastly, my twin screw blower would mop the floor with my non tuned na engine. There is just no comparison. I have taken modified Harley's from a dig...But I guess if you pull up a video from the early 90's which I have seen years ago with Japanese language and older tuned kits, I can see your argument. Just food for thought though, superchargers have in fact been upgraded since then. All in all, I agree there are way better options out there. But,,,, in California there are zero options. That being said, I lost sleep about spending 10k on a ctsc. Then I drove it.... Best mod I have ever done bar none. Don't care if it doesn't drive a loop faster. It's more fun then ever. Just my 2 cents Patricio. California is plagued by laws and it is unfortunate that we do not have more options. But the ctsc does not disappoint. It only disappoints when you remove it and sell it.
 
Those are not super tuned engines at all... they are basic amature modded cars, the engine internals are likey not modded

My engine internals are not modded it would take me a few hours to revert to pass smog.

Maybe you are not familiar with the group M SC. http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...upM-supercharger?p=34157&viewfull=1#post34157.. no Superchargers have evolved since the 90's. (Except rotrex). The CTSC is also the same is it was in the 90's... your right that is the problem, BTW that group M is actually known to put down more power than the basic CTSC. Used a more advanced ecu, and had a few more advantages also being less subjective to heat soak because its not directly bolted to the engine.

Any improvmwnts to the CTSC also means no longer meeting CA smog legally so there goes that.
 
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Those are not super tuned engines at all... they are basic amature modded cars, the engine internals are likey not modded

My engine internals are not modded it would take me a few hours to revert to pass smog..

Maybe you are not familiar with the group M... no Superchargers have evolved since the 90's. (Except rotrex). The CTSC is also the same is it was in the 90's... your right that is the problem, BTW that group M is actually known to put down more power than the basic CTSC. And also is less subjective to heat soak because its not directly bolted to the engine. And also improving the CTSC also means no longer meeting CA smog legally so there goes that.
Actually, I just bought my ctsc kit last March 2015. It added 90 hp to the wheels. Plus it just passed smog last month even when the tech said, omg I love this car, I am going to fail you so you will sell it to me... It's cool man, we have different views. I do not post here to undermine you and make you look silly. I only agree with you and try to advise you that In California we have less options. You can walk down the street chiefing on the highest potency marijuana here while saying hello to a policeman on patrol. But you also cannot pollute. It's a two way street. I grew up in South Florida and I am planning on moving back to Fort Lauderdale next year as my home has just added 300k in value over a 12 month period. Even then, I think I will stay ctsc. Only have Shad install a after cooler and high boost it prior to moving. Maybe we can have a beer after I move back down?
 
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Sounds good.

Gotta love real estate. I know I do. :)
I live just south of FT Lauderdale It's beautiful.. I lived in Malibu for a year.. I choose florida for the tropical clear blue warm water and year round beach & boating capital of the world, short flights and cruises to the islands are a benifit also. Europe and NY are shorter flights from here also which helped sway my prefrence.
 
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Sounds good.

Gotta love real estate. I know I do. :)
I live just south of FT Lauderdale on the beach in hallandale. It's beautiful.. I lived in Malibu for a few years.. I choose florida for the tropical clear blue warm water and year round beach & boat weather But I still prefer florida life more. Both had their pros and cons.
Ahh yes.... The east coast. Where you can get a REAL damn pizza!!! Out here we get a tortilla with spahghetti sauce and queso. East coaster born and raised here. So is wifey. She went to Northeastern university for law school. We own an island in tenants harbor, Maine which has been passed down through 3 generations and is over 100 years old.Worth about 2.5 million last we checked. But we are going to pass it down to the family. That is what life is about, family.
Anyways, way off topic, maybe see you in a few years at a local Nsx meet.
 
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Well, I know I'm somewhat necro-bumping here, but man, heated debate aside, I'm enjoying this thread.

Coming from an Eaton MP62 supercharged Civic Si, the comments regarding placement of added weight are something I never really thought too much about.

While that car was fun, and undoubtedly quicker, and more confidence inspiring than my NA2, it took far too much $$$ (mostly in suspension) to achieve than any normal person should invest into a Civic.

At this point, though I never thought I'd truly consider it, the idea of initial investment into higher HP may actually begin with more displacement, rather than immediately opting for f/i.
 
It is funny re-reading this thread. It's good to look back on things and think, damn... How did it de-rail so much?
But in a very good way coming from both sides...
 
Subbing to this thread I have to read tonight...

Good idea for myself as well.

-------

Anyone know the details on why NA tuners/drivers for the NSX prefer the Supercharger route vs Turbocharger? I noticed when I returned to NA in mid 2000s, that it seemed more followed the supercharger route vs turbo.

I blame the CTSC's false expectations, for how far behind N/A development is on the NSX in the US, in japan all people run is NA or turbo..

To echo what Patricio had already stated... the tuners/drivers in Japan all stay NA, or go Turbo. Never saw a supercharged NSX there (Kanagawa prefecture).
 
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Good idea for myself as well.

-------

Anyone know the details on why NA tuners/drivers for the NSX prefer the Supercharger route vs Turbocharger? I noticed when I returned to NA in mid 2000s, that it seemed more followed the supercharger route vs turbo.



To echo what Patricio had already stated... the tuners/drivers in Japan all stay NA, or go Turbo. Never saw a supercharged NSX there (Kanagawa prefecture).


My guess is the linearity of the power curve for a given engine, which tends to be closer to the shape of the curve for the same given engine when NA (when compared to the curve of a turbo application.) Therefore, "drive-ability" should be similar. Of course, there's that bit about "heat-soak lessening power in real-world situations" with the supercharger that has been mentioned here in this thread.

Example: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ary-Registry?p=1051260&viewfull=1#post1051260

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This is a much more complex issue than it seems. There is no easy way to add a lot more power to the NSX and do it on the cheap. Everything has a limitation and nothing is as good as OEM for reliability. Then there is the whole question of devaluing what is basically a rare car with this. As of today, I have $140-150,000 into my NSX, and my engine is stock short of headers and exhaust. I have a lot of personal opinions on this, but can say for sure no one thing is superior and something will always be better for a particular application. To me, what needs to be worked on, is an option to drop in a V8 Chevrolet block. Now many may poo-poo this idea, because it may not be Honda, but the LS/LT engines are small so they can fit, they make real power and torque, have more aftermarket support than anything in history, and are NA and incredibly reliable. They also sound fantastic. All of this comes at a very reasonable cost, for less than the cost of a CTSC system you can get a brand new GM crate engine, and take your C series and store it some place safely. Weight remains pretty much the same.

Another major thing rarely ever discussed is the fact that you can make all the power you want, it doesn't mean the NSX transaxle has to like your idea and not just decide to give up. Axles, gears, transmissions, will all start breaking much north of 450 HP. So realistically, you have a natural limit there. Cody had come up with the idea to rotate the engine, lower the CG, drop in a dry sump, improve the handling, run an LS, and use a Porsche transaxle that could hold 700+ lb/ft of torque if need be. ShaylorD here went with an SOS twin turbo, car makes more than 800 on E-85, and now his transmission is having issues. The other thing is the clutch, high HP clutches seem to me very stiff and take away from the driving experience. Trying to make an NSX's small clutch handle torque requires compromises you don't have with a more modern gearbox/clutch/trans.

Transmission is a problem, Fuel becomes octane often becomes a limiting factor (hence E85 and Methanol, both of which have drawbacks of their own), hacking up the car becomes a problem.

Here are just some of my quick thoughts:

NA- best response, transmission life, general reliability, high cost gains and limited power.

CTSC- Most simple of all FI systems and legal. Compromised fueling system. Never 100% accurate fuel delivery. Extremely high resale value. Easy install and removal done in a day. Loss of power under sustained use because of heat.

SOS supercharger- CTSC made complex and costly. More powerful, better fueling, not a good return on investment IMO once you add in intercooler, engine managment, etc. I am personally not fond of AEM.

Angus- I don't know enough about this to comment.

Lovefab- Cody is a friend. He is a real no bullshit guy. Cody cares less about nuance and refinement than about actual results. What he makes works. Be it a turbo kit or an aero system or a chassis bar. If you really just want raw power and results in anything, he is your guy.

Shad/driving ambition- I can never get a hold of this guy. He is quite knowledgeable and if you are in the vicinity and can get him to actually work on your car, go for it. He knows his stuff. He makes a nice intercooler that is far superior to what SOS used to make and can make a CTSC low boost or high boost, run perfect. If you are far away and need to deal by phone, good luck.

SOS twin turbo system- well designed and powerful system, but expensive. A lot of potential that can justify the cost, only your OEM engine and trans will limit you to the low/mid 400 range and well... you've spent a lot.

Dave Dozier's: This has long been a favorite of mine. Dave has a lot of attention to detail. IMO this is the most well-designed system out there. I don't love the AEM he tunes with but some of this is personal. I can tell you that Cody dropped AEM and decided to switch to Haltech. Having looked deeply into engine management I like Emtron of Australia. They are related to Motec. Back on subject.... The turbos dave uses are self contained. No oil or coolant lines. This simplifies things, allows more locations for the turbo, and reduces points of failure. The way the whole package bolts into and out of the car is ingenious. The response for variable vane twins is second to none. There is no waiting. The intercooler design is near perfect. Dual pass and inside the intake. The pressure loss is so little. The results speak for the efficiency. Boost is resistance. You want the highest CFM with the lowest PSI. Keeping things cool means more power with less stress. Don't forget engines are less than 50% in terms of thermal efficiency. Half the energy in gasoline is making heat. It is better to be more efficient than to just make more power because the first comes with less stress on all components and more longevity. Dave's numbers show... the system is efficient. What I am not sold on are the reliability of the turbos themselves, he is fine with it, and probably knows well, but certainly as far as name goes, aerocharger is not Garrett. This system isn't cheap either, like the SOS twins, but I personally like this a bit better. It's just less complex, more OEM. Still really considering this for myself at a cost and level way beyond my old CTSC.

J-swap: This is an option that needs to be considered by more people IMO. For the cost of forced induction you can swap to an engine with dirt cheap parts and support (an entire engine can be had for $300-500). If you turbo it, it makes TORQUE. Cody stopped developing parts for the C and moved to J support. Run more boost. Blow it up. No worries... your cost of a repair or replacement are minimal. Thousands lay in junkyards. Dimer Van Santen who races his NSX went this route. we are talking 10K for a new J installed in your car while the rare and expensive C stays safe. A J makes significantly more torque than a C at the same boost levels because of displacement. You are starting off at 3.5L in many cases. That's a stroker C for $500.

Now these are all my opinions, and I did not write this to offend or upset anyone. Being at the track, I realized I still have a long way to go before I can say "OK the engine is holding me back". The weak link is still me, although I have been on the track 5-6 years now. I went back to NA by CTSC removal and for sure lost power... but the engine seems more sprightly... it likes to rev more, reacts to throttle better, sounds better to my ear, and when working on the engine, everything is a nicer OEM fit instead of stuff crammed into the passenger side. I also no longer leak a drop of oil, and Vtec is back. I missed it.

Midnight Raven and I are good local friends, we work on our NSX's all the time. His 1991 coupe is under 2700 pounds. My 05 with a tank of gas is probably 2950 or so. We both have a 6 speed. He has upgraded. He just has a 3.0 with 100K miles, and I have a 3.2 with 28K miles. My car out-pulls his despite the weight, despite the identical transmissions. You can feel it from behind the wheel. I feel many just dismiss the 3.2 as "only 20 more HP" but they feel different because of torque and the power curve. I know this will cause a lot of arguments now but I am going to stay out of those. Again, my OPINION is just having a 3.2 is of useful and noticeable benefit.
 
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Why wouldn't you have VTEC with a SC? And leaking oil? Yikes.

But that was a great summary of thoughts on a number of options. Thank you.

My CTSC always had some small leak some place. The autorotors (which IMO were the best ones) also had a breather on the snout that always leaked some oil. That then would get picked up and sprayed into a fine mist on the glass and elsewhere on the engine. I mean..... It's not OEM. If anyone is under the illusion that you can FI an OEM engine and wind up with OEM-like results, they need to reevaluate. It's all a matter of compromise, and how much compromise you can deal with is personal. The biggest drawback of a supercharger for me is how the extra weight slows throttle response. Blip the throttle and it is just less willing to rev up as fast. There is drag on the motor. This is nuance though, most people probably wouldn't even notice this stuff. When you heel and toe, its just that extra second to get to where you want to be. Same with Vtec.... I really enjoy the shift itself. The snarl that comes from the shift over to the higher profile. You won't hear that any longer with a blower. It is just fully masked. You have more power, but it feels less "racey". The NSX just isn't that fast any more. Meaning for what it will cost you to get really fast, a whole host of other cars can outdo it for less money and more reliably. I am just not one to care about that all that much. Nothing can touch the NSX experience. Even sitting in a Cayman, one of my favorite cars, the hood is high, the fenders are high, you sit low, it is not the same view out as an NSX which no car can have any more because of regulations. I enjoy the "feel" of the NSX which many more powerful and faster cars just don't have. I've never sat in a car short of a McLaren F1 with a better driving position. It is also a real driver's car that is rewarding on the track. Many owners probably lose much of the feel and refinement on their quest for more power. Sure.... they become fast... but something unique gets a little lost. That unique quality is way more apparent on the track than on the street. Most of the guys looking for FI are simply bored, looking for that next level, because on the street the car is challenged. You are not. On the track that flips. You are challenged way more than the car. It all becomes fun again. Suddenly the 270/290 HP car becomes quick again, because it is more than an average driver can handle. If some of the people considering FI would get themselves to a track, they would probably save themselves some money. As you progress there, then you may seek out FI again, but there is a huge gap of time there. Years. My last thought is sound. I have never found the C engine to be sonorous. Of course I drive a Maserati regularly that has an F430 engine, and I also track with the exotics often. The NSX is the worst sounding car there. The NSX's best sound comes via intake, not exhaust, that is why the OEM growl is almost purely induction noise, why the OEM box has a resonator, why the OEM exhaust is so quiet. It is a very pleasing sound. ITB's amplify that x10. Listen to the Kakimoto NSX it is unreal. One of the reasons I am keen on a GM crate motor swap is that you will have the roar that comes from a C6 vette on full boil. It's quite a beautiful soundtrack that would really add to the NSX's already pleasing qualities like driver position, steering response (when without that heavy, terrible OEM steering wheel), balance, shifter, etc. A true naturally aspirated V8 NSX would be quite a machine.
 
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Now these are all my opinions, and I did not write this to offend or upset anyone.

Good summary Dave.

Pretty much any significant power-adder will come at a cost... besides the obvious monetary cost. You loose some of the "feel" from the car, and you also loose reliability.

Of the FI setups available for the NSX, I personally think Dave Doziers turbo setup is the best-engineered out there. I was also hesitant on the Aerocharger reliability, but that seems to be a thing of the past.
 
Amazing write-up, can you talk more about the Turbocharged J-Swap where people are making 600whp and 600wtq? My understanding is there is up to 3.7L of displacement. Easy to run low compression. The engine does not rev as high etc. What engine management are people using? Some fabricated parts but pretty plug and play...

This is a much more complex issue than it seems. There is no easy way to add a lot more power to the NSX and do it on the cheap. Everything has a limitation and nothing is as good as OEM for reliability. Then there is the whole question of devaluing what is basically a rare car with this. As of today, I have $140-150,000 into my NSX, and my engine is stock short of headers and exhaust. I have a lot of personal opinions on this, but can say for sure no one thing is superior and something will always be better for a particular application. To me, what needs to be worked on, is an option to drop in a V8 Chevrolet block. Now many may poo-poo this idea, because it may not be Honda, but the LS/LT engines are small so they can fit, they make real power and torque, have more aftermarket support than anything in history, and are NA and incredibly reliable. They also sound fantastic. All of this comes at a very reasonable cost, for less than the cost of a CTSC system you can get a brand new GM crate engine, and take your C series and store it some place safely. Weight remains pretty much the same.

Another major thing rarely ever discussed is the fact that you can make all the power you want, it doesn't mean the NSX transaxle has to like your idea and not just decide to give up. Axles, gears, transmissions, will all start breaking much north of 450 HP. So realistically, you have a natural limit there. Cody had come up with the idea to rotate the engine, lower the CG, drop in a dry sump, improve the handling, run an LS, and use a Porsche transaxle that could hold 700+ lb/ft of torque if need be. ShaylorD here went with an SOS twin turbo, car makes more than 800 on E-85, and now his transmission is having issues. The other thing is the clutch, high HP clutches seem to me very stiff and take away from the driving experience. Trying to make an NSX's small clutch handle torque requires compromises you don't have with a more modern gearbox/clutch/trans.

Transmission is a problem, Fuel becomes octane often becomes a limiting factor (hence E85 and Methanol, both of which have drawbacks of their own), hacking up the car becomes a problem.

Here are just some of my quick thoughts:

NA- best response, transmission life, general reliability, high cost gains and limited power.

CTSC- Most simple of all FI systems and legal. Compromised fueling system. Never 100% accurate fuel delivery. Extremely high resale value. Easy install and removal done in a day. Loss of power under sustained use because of heat.

SOS supercharger- CTSC made complex and costly. More powerful, better fueling, not a good return on investment IMO once you add in intercooler, engine managment, etc. I am personally not fond of AEM.

Angus- I don't know enough about this to comment.

Lovefab- Cody is a friend. He is a real no bullshit guy. Cody cares less about nuance and refinement than about actual results. What he makes works. Be it a turbo kit or an aero system or a chassis bar. If you really just want raw power and results in anything, he is your guy.

Shad/driving ambition- I can never get a hold of this guy. He is quite knowledgeable and if you are in the vicinity and can get him to actually work on your car, go for it. He knows his stuff. He makes a nice intercooler that is far superior to what SOS used to make and can make a CTSC low boost or high boost, run perfect. If you are far away and need to deal by phone, good luck.

SOS twin turbo system- well designed and powerful system, but expensive. A lot of potential that can justify the cost, only your OEM engine and trans will limit you to the low/mid 400 range and well... you've spent a lot.

Dave Dozier's: This has long been a favorite of mine. Dave has a lot of attention to detail. IMO this is the most well-designed system out there. I don't love the AEM he tunes with but some of this is personal. I can tell you that Cody dropped AEM and decided to switch to Haltech. Having looked deeply into engine management I like Emtron of Australia. They are related to Motec. Back on subject.... The turbos dave uses are self contained. No oil or coolant lines. This simplifies things, allows more locations for the turbo, and reduces points of failure. The way the whole package bolts into and out of the car is ingenious. The response for variable vane twins is second to none. There is no waiting. The intercooler design is near perfect. Dual pass and inside the intake. The pressure loss is so little. The results speak for the efficiency. Boost is resistance. You want the highest CFM with the lowest PSI. Keeping things cool means more power with less stress. Don't forget engines are less than 50% in terms of thermal efficiency. Half the energy in gasoline is making heat. It is better to be more efficient than to just make more power because the first comes with less stress on all components and more longevity. Dave's numbers show... the system is efficient. What I am not sold on are the reliability of the turbos themselves, he is fine with it, and probably knows well, but certainly as far as name goes, aerocharger is not Garrett. This system isn't cheap either, like the SOS twins, but I personally like this a bit better. It's just less complex, more OEM. Still really considering this for myself at a cost and level way beyond my old CTSC.

J-swap: This is an option that needs to be considered by more people IMO. For the cost of forced induction you can swap to an engine with dirt cheap parts and support (an entire engine can be had for $300-500). If you turbo it, it makes TORQUE. Cody stopped developing parts for the C and moved to J support. Run more boost. Blow it up. No worries... your cost of a repair or replacement are minimal. Thousands lay in junkyards. Dimer Van Santen who races his NSX went this route. we are talking 10K for a new J installed in your car while the rare and expensive C stays safe. A J makes significantly more torque than a C at the same boost levels because of displacement. You are starting off at 3.5L in many cases. That's a stroker C for $500.

Now these are all my opinions, and I did not write this to offend or upset anyone. Being at the track, I realized I still have a long way to go before I can say "OK the engine is holding me back". The weak link is still me, although I have been on the track 5-6 years now. I went back to NA by CTSC removal and for sure lost power... but the engine seems more sprightly... it likes to rev more, reacts to throttle better, sounds better to my ear, and when working on the engine, everything is a nicer OEM fit instead of stuff crammed into the passenger side. I also no longer leak a drop of oil, and Vtec is back. I missed it.

Midnight Raven and I are good local friends, we work on our NSX's all the time. His 1991 coupe is under 2700 pounds. My 05 with a tank of gas is probably 2950 or so. We both have a 6 speed. He has upgraded. He just has a 3.0 with 100K miles, and I have a 3.2 with 28K miles. My car out-pulls his despite the weight, despite the identical transmissions. You can feel it from behind the wheel. I feel many just dismiss the 3.2 as "only 20 more HP" but they feel different because of torque and the power curve. I know this will cause a lot of arguments now but I am going to stay out of those. Again, my OPINION is just having a 3.2 is of useful and noticeable benefit.
 
Amazing write-up, can you talk more about the Turbocharged J-Swap where people are making 600whp and 600wtq? My understanding is there is up to 3.7L of displacement. Easy to run low compression. The engine does not rev as high etc. What engine management are people using? Some fabricated parts but pretty plug and play...

A lot of J parts are swappable. Heads from this and a crank from that, a manifold from this and valve springs from that. You can cherry pick the best of parts for dirt cheap. No they don't like to rev to 8K like a C as is, they can with modified heads. That is an extra cost though. Also don't foget a C stroked to 3.5L also shouldn't be rev'ed that high. You exchange ultra high RPM power for a ton of torque. Still a J is good to around 7500, depending on which. The heads are just more restrictive than C heads. Again, you can make all the power and torque you want, it doesn't mean the transmission is going to take it. I remember looking at the torque figures with Cody and at the same HP level a J was making something like 100 pounds more torque. 600 wheel torque will destroy the trans. I assure you. Once you have reached the limits of the transaxle, if you want to be quicker, you have to be lighter. You have to be more efficient. You have to put that power down to the ground better with a superior differential. You have to have a better power CURVE. These are the days of numbers and dyno queens. So many of these cars with big #'s aren't actually fast. You want USABLE power. The benefit of E-85 and methanol is that they run cooler. The engine makes more power with less boost pressure, under less heat. You want the max power with the least boost. You can hedge things with a J because its practically a dispoable engine. For engine management, I think everyone likes something different.
 
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My head hurts... :wink:
 
Dave Dozier's: This has long been a favorite of mine. Dave has a lot of attention to detail. IMO this is the most well-designed system out there. I don't love the AEM he tunes with but some of this is personal. I can tell you that Cody dropped AEM and decided to switch to Haltech. Having looked deeply into engine management I like Emtron of Australia. They are related to Motec. Back on subject.... The turbos dave uses are self contained. No oil or coolant lines. This simplifies things, allows more locations for the turbo, and reduces points of failure. The way the whole package bolts into and out of the car is ingenious. The response for variable vane twins is second to none. There is no waiting. The intercooler design is near perfect. Dual pass and inside the intake. The pressure loss is so little. The results speak for the efficiency. Boost is resistance. You want the highest CFM with the lowest PSI. Keeping things cool means more power with less stress. Don't forget engines are less than 50% in terms of thermal efficiency. Half the energy in gasoline is making heat. It is better to be more efficient than to just make more power because the first comes with less stress on all components and more longevity. Dave's numbers show... the system is efficient. What I am not sold on are the reliability of the turbos themselves, he is fine with it, and probably knows well, but certainly as far as name goes, aerocharger is not Garrett. This system isn't cheap either, like the SOS twins, but I personally like this a bit better. It's just less complex, more OEM. Still really considering this for myself at a cost and level way beyond my old CTSC.

You can't really buy this, though, can you? It's kind of a one off?
 
You can't really buy this, though, can you? It's kind of a one off?

It's sort of but not quite. I run a system very similar to Dave's with the same turbos, just the smaller version. My system was one of the original Corky Bell systems but I have since refabricated the hot and cold side plumbing and added Dave's ingenious intercooler in the intake manifold. I am running AEM S2 and E85. My system has been reliable, repeatable and does not heat soak. The torque and powerband curves mimic OEM, just more of both. Will it pass California SMOG? No. Do I love it? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes.

Turbo2go is a great poster and his ramblings are must read if you really must know everything about a topic. He is obsessed with knowledge and I always his enjoy reading his posts. He is a great service to us all. I do like his comparison of the different systems, with pros and cons. I understand where he is coming from with the N/A feel and sound. But most on this portion of the forum are into performance gains and the first systems they upgrade are headers and exhaust. Once those are added, the sound of the intake is secondary at best. For me, I enjoy the sound of my turbos spooling up at 3k rpm and the little whoosh from my blow off valve is very muffled and not at all obnoxious. And at 400 rwhp, I feel I'm pretty safely below the breaking point for a lot of the things that are well chronicled to break. I love my system.

I believe that Dave Dozier was playing with the idea of building his system for other NSX's inclusive of engine management and tuning. If you have the time and money, I would have to give this a serious look.
 
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I've slowly been preparing my car for such a move. $2500 in gauges and custom installation work... I'm looking at $5k in engine management and tuning (I have a ton of tuning). E-85 capable pump, lines, system. Even my rear diffuser was purchased with this in mind. I've already sold my exhaust system. Talked to someone about making a custom titanium after turbo system. My tuner wants to start with my engine OEM. Build in things like synchro rev match and traction control... Then if I do the turbos retune... He prefers that over one giant leap.

The thing for me is, I really have no need for more power still because I'm still trying to improve as a driver. Here I run a car with carbon ceramic brakes and the racing line of JRZ suspension, but I'm on a stock engine. I'm still improving my pedal setup, working on the seats, still looking at various options for a rollbar without destroying an 05 car. Things that help me drive better. Power isn't at the top of my list. I've got $70K in mods but the engine is still stock and will most likely come last. One unique thing with Dave's system is there is a possibility to electronically control the vanes on these turbos. You're not just controlling boost pressure but the rate of rise... This gives a tuner such unbelievable control over what the engine does. So far it's just been talk as dave is a busy guy but like I said, he is detail oriented and meticulous. And that always works for me.
 
These are the days of numbers and dyno queens. So many of these cars with big #'s aren't actually fast. You want USABLE power.

Great response to this lengthy but interesting discussion. I agree with many of your points and not so much on others mainly due to how I use my car. And, that is, IMO, the main determination in how you would modify your engine or if you'd want to do it at all. At the beginning of this discussion, the OP Stated how he was intending to use his car. Which was similar to how I use mine. Track days at NSXPO, car meets and occasional drives with friends on weekends. Though I also do one or two long trips a year in mine. My setup is based on that criteria. I hang out with a lot of Dyno Queens and you are right. It's almost impossible to keep 600 to 2000 HP in a straight line much less on a curvy road course. These guys compete in the Texas Mile where you have a mile of concrete to get to your car's top speed. (An 1800 HP Ford GT did 259 MPH this year.) A lot of folks seem to look at the NSX and say all or nothing when it comes to adding HP. I'm not into drag racing and the NSX is not the car I would choose if I were.

As for my application, I felt that the NSX was too underpowered by today's standards though it was engineered for more than it was given at the factory. So I wanted to find that sweet spot where the car's balance and feel stayed but performance was closer to todays supercars. Now, I realize that todays supercars start at about 550 HP and the NSX 3.2 engine can not take that without some expensive internal modification. I wanted to keep within the stock drivetrain tolerances where I can keep the reliability close to the same as NA. And, I wanted to keep the stock look of the car so, the installation had to look like Honda/Acura would have done it at the factory. My car is closer to the new NSX without the electric motors, AWD, 9sp auto and price tag. Of course, as you said, it's all personal preference. Some look at their NSX and say it is perfect. While I and others look at it and say it was as close as perfect as a car could get in the 1990s and now the technology is here to bring it up to date and perform to my uses. I feel that I compromised between the two views.

I think at 415 rwhp I've achieved that balance. The car doesn't get squirrely on acceleration, The pull is just as linear as NA only about 200 HP higher. So far the stock clutch with 100K miles on it doesn't slip and the car has been reliable. As I said before, I don't flog the crap out of the car but, she is plenty fast enough to keep up with the crowd. 400 rwhp on an NSX is like 600 hp on most other cars due to its low weight. Yes it was expensive and it remains to be seen how it would affect my car's value but, I have no plans to sell it and I'm not saving it for anyone.
 
Where was the disagreement? LOL
 
Turbo2go,


what I just read from your post has been a lot of fun knowledge . Like jinks says "my head hurts". Very helpful post. What I would like to know more is what dave dozier do with his set up. You said that dave doziers was your favorite. For some reason I can't find what dave dozier setup is . Please explain more to me or if Dave is reading this please chime in so in the near future I can compare and make my decision easier. When I first post this thread I really wanted to go turbo but with all the reliability that the CTSC comes with (without the smog legal exception). I've come down to Angus turbo kit or prospeeds turbo kit with low boost . Seems like they both have had success since 2009 with very little to no problems running in the stock motor ( please excuse me if I have time and dates incorrect). Option number 3 is having my personal tuner build me a custom turbo kit the way I want with the advise everyone on prime is telling me to do. New pistons new head gasket and new head bolts. Also Michael brat advised an engine refresh with all new hoses, seals, gasket and a new radiator(koyo). So by June I will be starting this build of mine and with this thread it's been very helpful. Please chime in

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Found Dave dozier thread after googling aerochargers. Too bad , he is the only one that can build his kit. And almost impossible to buy. Mind blowing
 
I would dread opening the bottom end of a perfectly good engine. This is where temperatures and tuning matter. Safeguards. Proper instrumentation. I think this is overlooked too often to save costs. I think if you want a good reliable turbo system you need to set aside $15,000-20,000. This is without opening the bottom end. It includes the best engine management and best tuner you can find. There may be multiple good tuners but you need to take charge of what you want them to do. What do you want for safeguards? How many sensors do you have monitoring the engine? Do you have CEL functionality in case one or more sensors fail? I don't believe in $500-1000 tunes. Tuning must be done over time in many conditions, temperatures, altitudes, gasoline types, on the street, on the track, etc. The OEM Honda tune is not a $500 tune by one guy with a laptop done in an afternoon. Yes an engine will run with a basic tune but that to me a risky proposition. You do everything within your power to make sure the engine is not stressed. Temperature is a huge indication of stress. The more heat you are making the more you are stressing everything. Older NSX engines seem to also use an organic head-gasket and that is always a concern, although I am fuzzy on the year or if it was an NA1-2 change.

I have probably $2000 in instruments, and if I didn't care about modding a last year car, I would probably have replaced the entire dash with a digital unit. You must know what is going on and need a lot of data. I have considered some unusual stuff, like AFR monitoring PER cylinder. Per bank is a minimum to me.

To make a long story short, I think there is risk involved in force inducting an NA engine and if you are on a budget, you will sacrifice reliability. You need to have a really good handle on what you are doing before proceeding.
 
Dave for president! Dave, you should write a wiki article based on this. (too bad I don't think many people know it's there)

I've always liked the term, "This is what it should have come with from the factory". If you search on prime, those comments tend to stem from folks who have added perhaps 50-80wHP to their motors. Effectively you can (sort of) achieve the same with gearing. I'm comfortable stating that 50-80wHP is within the reliability thresholds of the stock setup... BARELY. And by barely I mean.. If the engine is tuned correctly, you will simply be eating thru the paper head gasket (in the early 3.0L) sooner. You will eat thru the stock clutch sooner... but otherwise it should be bulletproof. You may eventually wear out the axles sooner but that's like 150k miles or 80k miles.. Though, there have been reports of the 3.2L heads lifting under mild boost and time serts needed, etc. If it was me, and I had an NA2, I would do exactly what Dave did but I would rebuild the 6spd to include an OS Giken LSD in it... too bad I believe the OSG LSD only comes in a 4.4 Final Drive these days... That's not ideal for me but depends how you like to drive your car.

I know people want different things from their cars... Hell, you own it.. do what you want.. but if it was me.. If I wanted a 500wHP NSX i'd just buy a Supra and go to town on the 2JZ-GTE. Same money can be spent to get 800wHP+. The NSX ownership community loves to talk about FI. Why not? it's fun... but what you don't hear about are the engines that goes Kaboom. Owners do not like to talk about that when it happens so a lot of the feedback on FI setups here are one-sided. I can only speak with absolute certainty that my CTSC Autorotor has been bulletproof (with water spray and HKS F-Con) except it cost me a head gasket about 15k miles ago (and the aforementioned clutch). This is on an early 1991 paper head gasket.
 
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