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Budget 02+ ABS conversion

Ooh... I thought you were referring to the engine ECU. I should have realized that you are referring to the ABS ECU. What aftermarket ECU should I consider, and where would I buy it? Sorry for the noob questions.

Not a problem...
What are you eventual goals for the car? E85? Turbo or Supercharged? Stroker build? People have their preferences for what ecus they like to run depending on the application. I run an AEM EMS series 2 because I am supercharged on E85. Pretty much any stand alone ecu will work because you will loose the OEM traction control with it. A good tuner can also wake up the NSX motor without any major mods. Any shop can get you an ecu. Or you can order it yourself online. Just remember to think of your long term goals and verify that the ecu you are about to purchase will satisfy the requirements to obtain those goals. Hope that helps.
 
As other's have said. thanks for sharing an option for us 91 owner's who also mod-budget conscious.
I was checking for newer ap2(05+) abs pumps and noticed that the hard lines are in different locations. The Ap1 (2002) one's look just like your pics posted in the 1st page. the new ones have 4 connectors on the top part and 2 on the side?
Do you think the placement is part of the tcs being added ?
hopefully my statement and question makes sense.
 
I haven't done any research on AP2 pumps but the TCS difference should only be realized in the wiring connector. It should have 4 extra wires than the AP1. Otherwise I have no idea.
If the two hardlines on the side are the lines from the master cylinder, you could try to bend the lines to reach or make you own.
 
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I posted the same info several years ago on NSXCB as there was almost exactly the same mods mentioned.

From ABS modulator and TCS controller point of view, as long as you have the same wheel speed trigger teeth ratio between F & R and using the same sensor spec, ABS controller from any models will ‘electronically’ function fine and it won’t cause warning lights.

On the drive shaft, there are 50 trigger teeth on our NSX. S2000 is the same.
I haven’t counted the front side but since 'syndicate' didn’t get the ABS warning light, it would be the same/similar between NSX and S2000.

The wheel speed sensor at each wheel is MPU and the raw signal first enters the ABS.
Inside there, the signal is filtered and level converted before being passed over to the TCS controller.
You will get TCS light if the TCS controller doesn’t get these 4 signals.
However, as mentioned later, if you have non-DBW model and if you decide to disable the TCS, then you won't get the TCS warning light.

On the ABS modulator, the big cyl like metal cover is where the motor sits.
It’s by Jideco (merged into Mitsuba) and the setting/controller board/software are by Nissin.

Among the different car models, the biggest difference is the software or the slip rate target mapping.
ABS is not that simple by just preventing the lockup.

There are many different algorithm used inside the software.

Each models are mapped differently so this is where it gets bit tricky because 99% of the time, ABS will be used under panic braking condition or not on purposely.

Although the ABS modulator from another model will ‘electronically’ operate fine, it may result in longer stopping distance under panic braking.

Good example is the standard NSX ABS modulator compared to the NSX-R one.
NSX-R has sharp brake pressure slope due to huge vacuum booster assist compared to the standard model and due to the weight distribution/tyre/chassis setup/etc, the setting is quite different from the standard model.

However, with standard NSX and NSX-R ABS modulators on similar chassis setup NSXs, comparing the two on the same road/track for a few weeks, I couldn’t tell the difference with my driving skill when using the ABS on purposely while braking into the turn. This was not under the panic braking mode.

However, the professional drivers (I’m talking about the FIA license holders) who attended the same session could tell the difference and told me that while there is massive difference in braking feedback (probably because of the much sharp brake pressure control on NSX-R) before the ABS kicks in, the NSX-R ABS won’t kick in until the very last moment and also not so frequently compared to the standard ABS.

Basically, with NSX-R ABS, the car lets the driver to take more control during hard braking before the ABS kicks in.

This is good if you are on purposely using ABS on the approach to T1, or certain sector (for example, T2 - T4) and if you have the skill.
We call them the human ABS.


On the other hand, under panic braking or simply just continuously keeping your foot on the brake pedal like when carrying out the stopping distance test, there is a chance that the NSX-R ABS modulator may end up with longer stopping distance than the standard one because of the above mapping/logic characteristic.

One friend told me that long time ago, a certain car magazine carried out side by side test between the two modulators to check the stopping distance and on all attempts, the one with the NSX-R modulator took longer distance to stop.
I have never seen the actual video footage or never carried out the side by side stopping distance test so I can’t confirm this from my own experience but won’t be surprised if that is true.


I normally recommend other owners to use standard ABS modulator and not the NSX-R one for the above reason.


NSX-R doesn’t have TCS from the factory.
There are some owners who installed the NSX-R ABS modulator on their NSX but as it’s not that popular to do so, I don’t know whether they got TCS warning light or not.
In Japan, T3TEC installed NSX-R modulator on very limited number of NSX and they told me that they didn't notice the TCS light. However, many owners have already disabled the TCS so that could be the reason.
Or, Nissin just used the same hardware as the standard NSX modulator for the wheel speed I/F and didn’t disable the filtered/level converted output signal to the TCS controller even on the NSX-R modulator.

Speaking of TCS, if you have non-DBW model (91 – 94), personally, I would disable the TCS.
On non-DBW model, the TCS is done through the stepping motor with mechanical linkage to the TH butterfly and the control is not great that it’s more like On/Off sudden change in engine power.
I just disconnected the connectors from the TCS controller and disabled it long time ago.
You may get CEL for the first time for communication error but because it looks for the 2 failure status at each power cycle, you won’t get CEL next time.


This thread is an interesting solution if one’s classic ABS is dead or failing.


I don’t know why the ABS modulator price went up like a few $1,000 overnight several years ago in US.
In Japan, while the parts price goes up twice a year every year, it’s still nowhere near the $3,000 mark.
You can buy NSX ABS modulator from Japan using the English spoken service through several vendors.
I think some of the vendors in US and Europe are buying the ABS modulator through their contacts in Japan to offer the ABS upgrade kit at better price than buying the modulator through Acura.


The 25pin big black/orange connector is from AMP (now part of tyco electronics).
It’s their .060/.187 Slide Cam connectors series.
The 25pin one is no longer used regularly by the automotive manufactures so long time ago, they stopped the regular production but can be ordered as a set of several 100s or you can find the remaining stock on the market and order in small numbers.

Good luck.

Kaz
 
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Great bit of info as always ^^


I now have all the part numbers for terminals, seals, and connector, but the 060 seals and terminals are not available anywhere.
 
could you use the ksp harness for this?
There are some pinout differences between 99/00+ NSX and AP1 S2000 ABS modulators but the big black/orange connector is the same so you just need to make small modifications on the aftermarket ABS upgrade loom by opening the connector and re-assigning the terminals into the correct positions. So, to answer your question, yes you can with some modifications.

For LHD model application, you may want to make other modifications anyway on the upgrade loom as the GND cable length may not be long enough and I also make several changes at the same time for the future usage :smile:.


Kaz
 
My system will work on any setup, OEM or aftermarket, but you might have a TCS light, CEL or you could have a limp mode condition. The NSX TCS ecu is looking for signals from the factory abs ecu, which you will remove. I would imagine that not seeing those signals will trip the TCS light or could put the car in limp mode. You can test it by unplugging the factory abs ecu (behind the glovebox with 2 orange plugs) and take a spin. See how the car reacts. The lights should go away when you plug it back in. I wish I had a car to experiment with that still has the oem stuff on it. I have been wanting to try this with [MENTION=22168]LoveNSXs[/MENTION].


What do you need to test? You forget mine is all OEM [MENTION=24013]syndicate[/MENTION]?
 
What do you need to test? You forget mine is all OEM [MENTION=24013]syndicate[/MENTION]?

I was looking to try the newer s2000 abs with traction control in the NSX to see if the NSX TCS computer will play nice. If you were interested in this swap and you wanted to try to keep the oem traction control, you would need to purchase the newer s2k pump and let me try to integrate the two.
 
I believe the NSX NA2 has an external proportionning valve while the S2000 has this valve built into the ABS modulator?
What's the purpose of this proportionning valve and how will the S2000 modulator work in the NSX in this case?
 
The proportioning valve is separate just like the NSX. The valve is used to bias the brake pressure towards the front brakes by not allowing the full brake pressure to reach the backs.
I understand.
Thanks
 
I am very interested in doing thing conversion myself on my 92 but not knowledgeable enough to tackle this project.

In brief, please correct me if I am wrong:

- S2000 modulator works same as 02+ NSX modulator
- The 02+ NSX proportioning valve is what makes the brake bias
- Part 12-20 OEM steel brake lines can be installed in relatively easy access
- Wire harness plug can be purchase used from other Hondas
- Wire harness needs to be wired and splice according to diagram you provided.
- S2000 modulator has a built in computer so the NA1 ABS computer can be thrown out the window
- S2000 bracket bolt pattern fits NSX intended original location so all brake pipe lines up
- My 1992 old modulator is not need nor any parts from it (I threw mine away, concurrently running no ABS)

Thanks,
 
Do you have an ETA on when this will be available for sale?

I just blew my '91 system. Now I can't pick up hookers without feeling embarrassed.
 
I am very interested in doing thing conversion myself on my 92 but not knowledgeable enough to tackle this project.

In brief, please correct me if I am wrong:

- S2000 modulator works same as 02+ NSX modulator
- The 02+ NSX proportioning valve is what makes the brake bias
- Part 12-20 OEM steel brake lines can be installed in relatively easy access
- Wire harness plug can be purchase used from other Hondas
- Wire harness needs to be wired and splice according to diagram you provided.
- S2000 modulator has a built in computer so the NA1 ABS computer can be thrown out the window
- S2000 bracket bolt pattern fits NSX intended original location so all brake pipe lines up
- My 1992 old modulator is not need nor any parts from it (I threw mine away, concurrently running no ABS)

Thanks,

- the s2000 pump I used does not have TCS supportability and works just as good as the 02+ NSX pump as far as I can tell.

-yes, the valve makes the brake bias

-with the right wrenches, the lines install fairly quickly (not changing a fuse quickly, but quickly). You will need:
The 2 lines from the master cylinder to the abs pump, the 2 rear lines from the pump to the proportioning valve, the 2 rear lines from the proportioning valve to the rear brake line junction (it is next to the master cylinder under the hood and also has your clutch line in the junction) and the valve itself. You can purchase the 2 front lines from the pump to each brake, but have fun running them. I just bent my oem fronts into place with little effort

-yes, I used one from a civic (2005)

-yes, you will need to run wires from the NSX abs computer to the new wire harness

-yes, you do not need the abs ecu from the old setup anymore

-no, you will have to modify the s2000 bracket by drilling out the spot welds to separate the 2 pieces. You will only keep the piece that bolts to the pump. I installed all my lines and wired everything up then mounted the s2k bracket to the NSX bracket

- once you remove the old system, you will need to remove the components from the aluminum bracket that bolts to the frame rail. You will reuse this bracket.
 
- the s2000 pump I used does not have TCS supportability and works just as good as the 02+ NSX pump as far as I can tell.

-yes, the valve makes the brake bias

-with the right wrenches, the lines install fairly quickly (not changing a fuse quickly, but quickly). You will need:
The 2 lines from the master cylinder to the abs pump, the 2 rear lines from the pump to the proportioning valve, the 2 rear lines from the proportioning valve to the rear brake line junction (it is next to the master cylinder under the hood and also has your clutch line in the junction) and the valve itself. You can purchase the 2 front lines from the pump to each brake, but have fun running them. I just bent my oem fronts into place with little effort

-yes, I used one from a civic (2005)

-yes, you will need to run wires from the NSX abs computer to the new wire harness

-yes, you do not need the abs ecu from the old setup anymore

-no, you will have to modify the s2000 bracket by drilling out the spot welds to separate the 2 pieces. You will only keep the piece that bolts to the pump. I installed all my lines and wired everything up then mounted the s2k bracket to the NSX bracket

- once you remove the old system, you will need to remove the components from the aluminum bracket that bolts to the frame rail. You will reuse this bracket.

Thanks...

Oh no, I don't have my old system anymore. I might have to source one from Ramon. However, I can just custom something up but just make sure it is secure.

- The rear pipe lights have a junction I can connect to. That's good to know.
- Hopefully my fronts are not so bend out I can reuse them or else I will have to venture to get the front pipe to the front Brakes
- Before you start, you drain out the brake system?
- The project does not sound too hard. Maybe time consuming to get the harness correct and line up the pipes......
- Please let me know if you have any more things that can ease the process even further. Thanks for sharing your DIY.
 
[MENTION=24013]syndicate[/MENTION] Have you had a chance to try out the newer AP2 abs system? It does sound to be more advanced than the AP1 version.

The ABS system has been improved through the use of split-regulation yaw-control logic for improved stability on split-μμ surfaces when the ABS is triggered. Furthermore, though more powerful than before, the system (consisting of the CPU and modulator) has been downsized for both precious space and weight savings.
 
First of all KAZ made a brilliantly detailed post, a real must read.
I'd like to way in to the discussion of using the S2000 abs, we sell the kits, with or without module but always add the following notice towards clients:

Please do note,
Usage of non NSX Modulators gives the following issues:
- Incorrect brake biasing and computer computation (different weight distribution and drivetrain layout)
- Incorrect hydraulic valveing (different caliper piston ratio and different brake disc diameter ratio)

- TCS
can in some cases become inoperable due to communications between ABS and TCS being incompatible. (if had a few calls from customers with this issue)


Basically boils down to the fact that once you activate your ABS the module will control the brakes like a for example a S2000 (if even heard of people using DC5 module)

If you do a hydraulic bias calculation of the S2000 brake system you'll very quickly notice it's very different than a NSX.
Then if you do a disc ratio calculation you'll see there is a second difference.

Add to that factor the proportioning valve and weight distribution difference.

Also the system isn't expecting NSX tire sizes or chassis behavior (keep in mind NSX has a anti-dive system in it's front suspension)
NSX also under G load will differently position it's tire contact surfaces than a S2000
 
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