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Budget 02+ ABS conversion
- Thread starter syndicate
- Start date
so, just to double check, at its current state, on a stock 92 nsx this will cause the tcs to error and light up the dash light?
Correct, but if you want to experiment with a different pump from a car with TCS, let me know. Someone said the later year s2000 has tcs. If so I can make something up and we can try it
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the AP1 S2000 ABS pump has the pins in the locations of the NSX ABS TCS outputs, but of course the S2000 connector doesn't have the extra 4 pins required.
so i've added 4 pins from a HRV abs connector
i shall be testing to see if the 4 stabilised ABS signals are on the 4 pins when i do my conversion... i know someone did a quick test, and the one channel that has been checked gives a corresponding output.
if not i shall use the original abs computer as a signal conditioner for the TCS!
so i've added 4 pins from a HRV abs connector
i shall be testing to see if the 4 stabilised ABS signals are on the 4 pins when i do my conversion... i know someone did a quick test, and the one channel that has been checked gives a corresponding output.
if not i shall use the original abs computer as a signal conditioner for the TCS!
Last edited:
Im surprised the program flashed to the s2000 abs doesn't have those outputs disabled. I'm interested to see what you find.
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Based on what I saw on other ABS modulators, NA2 NSX-R (no TCS from the factory) and the brief test carried out for another owner using AP1 ABS, unless AP1 ABS software is disabling the w/speed signal output above certain car speed, TCS should work and no TCS light.
I only checked one corner at very low speed but the w/speed signal output was available from AP1 modulator
There are several owners who installed the NA2 NSX-R ABS on their standard NSX and so far, no TCS light being triggered.
As you know, NSX-R didn’t have TCS from the factory but the 4 x w/speed signal for the TCS seemed to be enabled on the ABS modulator.
However, most of the above owners had their TCS disabled in the past and thus, no more TCS light even the IG key in P2 so their feedback could be not 100% correct.
By now, I was hoping one UK owner to have already installed the AP1 ABS modulator with the modified T3TEC loom for AP1 usage on his NSX but it won’t happen until later this winter so looking forward to the feedback from britlude in the future.
For the clarification, T3TEC loom is not cheap so won't be cost saving, I have no interest in selling the loom and I have no intention to interfering this nice project by Syndicate.
As mentioned in my previous post, it doesn’t have to be AP1 but you can use any modulators as long as you know the required spec and what you are doing.
Some extra information for those interested.
If you are happy to spend about US$50, I recommend the use of NSX specific holder bracket for the modulator than modifying the bracket that may come with the non-NSX modulator.
Both modulators in the above photo are of AP1. Just the bracket difference.
Left one with the NSX specific holder bracket and the Right one with the AP1 bracket.
Even with the reduced weight compared to the classic ABS, it’s still fairly heavy and you really want secure fixing for the modulator considering the inertia under sudden impact.
The use of proper bracket will also allow the use of proper NSX brake pipes without bending them and in the future, if you decide switching to NSX modulator, it will be a quick swap.
Obviously, the point of this thread is cost saving so please make your own decision.
Please select the appropriate relay for driving the ABS warning light circuit if using AP1 modulator.
The I/F on AP1 modulator only draws tiny current so you will need the high switching sensitivity type and since it will be continuously ON unless the modulator detects ABS failure, you must select the contact spec suitable for this kind of application.
This is probably due to S2000 using the digital gauge assy that the designers wanted to minimise the noise introduction by the use of ordinary mechanical relay that requires higher coil current and generates noise when switching On and Off.
Personally, I would stay with the SSR mentioned in the original post based on its characteristic under cabin temperature that could reach well over 60degC under direct sun light and the target circuit design that is different based on the year models.
For your reference, depending on the year model, the ABS warning light circuit is different and thus, the power consumption is different.
There is additional mechanical power relay in the loop on the later model so the logic is revered and while the updated post of using the Omron relay is nice and another cost saving, not sure of the long term usage under high cabin temperature with continuously On status.
By the way, you don’t compare ABS on dry, straight line.
As others mentioned, under that kind of condition, the main factor is the friction coefficient and thus, your tyre/road surface and load on each tyre play the biggest part.
You probably had better tyre than your friend and I don't know the spec of your brake but probably with the earlier smaller OEM brake caliper (brake balance massively towards the front) with aftermarket wheel or different rake between F and R rideheight compared to OEM.
You may find that under certain speed and condition, continuously fully locking the tyre will stop at shorter distance than letting the ABS to do the work.
Next time if you have the opportunity, please try these.
Ideally on the controlled wet proving ground, layout the traffic cones with mid-large radius (R) corner that you are comfortable to enter at about 50mph.
Approach the corner with steering wheel straight at 50mph, brake hard and almost immediately at the same time, turn the wheel to trace the corner R.
Measure the total stopping distance as well as the gap between the car and the nearest traffic cone.
Next, do exactly the same but on this occasion, turn the steering wheel first on entering the corner before immediately braking hard.
In ideal world, both tests should show similar result but you may find very interesting and quite big difference especially on some of the modern production cars with stability control equipped.
On our NSX, fortunately or unfortunately, there is no interaction between the ABS and TCS in the form of stability control.
The result difference between NSX and non-NSX ABS modulator would be very interesting.
You must have access to the SCS terminal on the ABS modulator from outside without disconnecting the big BLK/ORG connector.
Otherwise, you will have big time resetting the error code.
You never know what kind of error code already stored in the used ABS modulator and you can’t erase it by removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery.
You must follow the specific procedure and timing involving the IG key, Brake pedal and the SCS terminal in order to reset it.
Further info here including the comment section;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?1791-Meanwhile
Kaz
I only checked one corner at very low speed but the w/speed signal output was available from AP1 modulator
There are several owners who installed the NA2 NSX-R ABS on their standard NSX and so far, no TCS light being triggered.
As you know, NSX-R didn’t have TCS from the factory but the 4 x w/speed signal for the TCS seemed to be enabled on the ABS modulator.
However, most of the above owners had their TCS disabled in the past and thus, no more TCS light even the IG key in P2 so their feedback could be not 100% correct.
By now, I was hoping one UK owner to have already installed the AP1 ABS modulator with the modified T3TEC loom for AP1 usage on his NSX but it won’t happen until later this winter so looking forward to the feedback from britlude in the future.
For the clarification, T3TEC loom is not cheap so won't be cost saving, I have no interest in selling the loom and I have no intention to interfering this nice project by Syndicate.
As mentioned in my previous post, it doesn’t have to be AP1 but you can use any modulators as long as you know the required spec and what you are doing.
Some extra information for those interested.
If you are happy to spend about US$50, I recommend the use of NSX specific holder bracket for the modulator than modifying the bracket that may come with the non-NSX modulator.
Both modulators in the above photo are of AP1. Just the bracket difference.
Left one with the NSX specific holder bracket and the Right one with the AP1 bracket.
Even with the reduced weight compared to the classic ABS, it’s still fairly heavy and you really want secure fixing for the modulator considering the inertia under sudden impact.
The use of proper bracket will also allow the use of proper NSX brake pipes without bending them and in the future, if you decide switching to NSX modulator, it will be a quick swap.
Obviously, the point of this thread is cost saving so please make your own decision.
Please select the appropriate relay for driving the ABS warning light circuit if using AP1 modulator.
The I/F on AP1 modulator only draws tiny current so you will need the high switching sensitivity type and since it will be continuously ON unless the modulator detects ABS failure, you must select the contact spec suitable for this kind of application.
This is probably due to S2000 using the digital gauge assy that the designers wanted to minimise the noise introduction by the use of ordinary mechanical relay that requires higher coil current and generates noise when switching On and Off.
Personally, I would stay with the SSR mentioned in the original post based on its characteristic under cabin temperature that could reach well over 60degC under direct sun light and the target circuit design that is different based on the year models.
For your reference, depending on the year model, the ABS warning light circuit is different and thus, the power consumption is different.
There is additional mechanical power relay in the loop on the later model so the logic is revered and while the updated post of using the Omron relay is nice and another cost saving, not sure of the long term usage under high cabin temperature with continuously On status.
By the way, you don’t compare ABS on dry, straight line.
As others mentioned, under that kind of condition, the main factor is the friction coefficient and thus, your tyre/road surface and load on each tyre play the biggest part.
You probably had better tyre than your friend and I don't know the spec of your brake but probably with the earlier smaller OEM brake caliper (brake balance massively towards the front) with aftermarket wheel or different rake between F and R rideheight compared to OEM.
You may find that under certain speed and condition, continuously fully locking the tyre will stop at shorter distance than letting the ABS to do the work.
Next time if you have the opportunity, please try these.
Ideally on the controlled wet proving ground, layout the traffic cones with mid-large radius (R) corner that you are comfortable to enter at about 50mph.
Approach the corner with steering wheel straight at 50mph, brake hard and almost immediately at the same time, turn the wheel to trace the corner R.
Measure the total stopping distance as well as the gap between the car and the nearest traffic cone.
Next, do exactly the same but on this occasion, turn the steering wheel first on entering the corner before immediately braking hard.
In ideal world, both tests should show similar result but you may find very interesting and quite big difference especially on some of the modern production cars with stability control equipped.
On our NSX, fortunately or unfortunately, there is no interaction between the ABS and TCS in the form of stability control.
The result difference between NSX and non-NSX ABS modulator would be very interesting.
You must have access to the SCS terminal on the ABS modulator from outside without disconnecting the big BLK/ORG connector.
Otherwise, you will have big time resetting the error code.
You never know what kind of error code already stored in the used ABS modulator and you can’t erase it by removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery.
You must follow the specific procedure and timing involving the IG key, Brake pedal and the SCS terminal in order to reset it.
Further info here including the comment section;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?1791-Meanwhile
Kaz
Last edited:
done some checking....
i can only see signals for FLP and FRP, nothing for the rear pulse outputs (outputs are floating) so that screws the TCS functionality with a S2000 pump as far as i can tell....
i can only see signals for FLP and FRP, nothing for the rear pulse outputs (outputs are floating) so that screws the TCS functionality with a S2000 pump as far as i can tell....
Any updates on this?
I still have not had a local with a factory ecu interested in the kit yet. I have done a few with aftermarket ecus.
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Actually, I'm not sure how I missed Kaz's last post. Great info in there! I wish you lived near me! We could make some cool stuff. I haven't spent much time with this project. One day I will make a proper installation video and maybe even try some of your track tests. Thanks again for your contributions!
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There is at least one owner in Japan who looked into AP1 ABS conversion long-long time ago and driving his NSX with it.
Another owner in Japan converted ABS from later model Step Wagon (official name Step Wgn) into his NSX.
So, as you can see, it doesn’t have to be AP1 modulator as long as the required sensor input and trigger teeth conditions are met.
Here in UK, there is one owner driving his NSX with AP1 modulator as his original 1st gen classic ABS failed so he then switched to 2nd gen but still got tired of frequently triggering ABS pump noise and now converted to AP1.
He has disabled the TCS by disconnecting the connectors from the TCS unit.
His NSX is non-DBW.
Thank you to member 'britlude' for testing AP1 modulator on his NSX and even opening one of his AP1 circuit board.
In the above post #132 , he stated that AP1 modulator doesn't provide rear w/speed signal required for the TCS controller.
He wrote it so simple as if it was an easy task but in reality, he spent lots and lots of time on this especially around the time of last Christmas.
This is his photo posted on NSXCB site and included in the following link below.
You can feel how much effort went into his project;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?14147-collecting-parts-for-winter-project
As he wanted to keep TCS, he has now moved on from AP1 modulator to proper NSX ABS.
There is another owner in Europe who has just completed the AP1 conversion.
His NSX is so much modified that there was no point in using expensive NSX modulator as his weight distribution, brake setup, brake balance, etc are completely different from factory spec NSX.
He used AP1 conversion for R&D purpose before deciding what to do in the future.
Hope he can spend some time testing it but probably we need to wait a bit as he seemed to be triggering one of the w/speed sensor failure.
So, in summary, if using AP1 modulator, you will trigger TCS warning light unless you keep classic ABS controller and back feed the rear side w/speed signal into TCS controller without affecting the signal going into the AP1 ABS or use other signal I/F circuit to filter and level convert the rear w/speed signal for TCS.
Alternatively, you need to find one body ABS modulator that meets the requirements for ABS and TCS on NSX.
It’s not the end of the world because on non-DBW model, TCS control is very vague and almost like On/Off control that you can disable it, if you want.
You can disable it by simply disconnecting the connectors from the TCS controller.
You will no longer see the TCS light even during the bulb check mode when you turn the IG key into P2 On position.
Please note that by doing this, you will always store #36 (but WITHOUT triggering the CEL on the dash) in the ECU.
This is because there is no longer the communication link between ECU and TCS but in order to trigger the CEL on the dash, ECU must detect communication failure twice before IG Reset (IG key from P2 On to P1 ACC) and that’s impossible because it can only detect the missing link once when there is no TCS controller connected.
I have never disabled the TCS on DBW model so not sure of the effect or the end result.
By the way, if diabling TCS (or ABS), please make sure to check your local regulation especially in Japan and UK (and very likely to be the same in Europe).
There is new MOT regulation in place starting from this year regarding the dash warning light.
The MOT operator will now check the presence of ABS, TCS lights using bulb check mode, the presence of TCS On/Off switch and their operation by starting the engine, etc.
Therefore, if you disable the TCS (and/or ABS), depending on the local regulation, it will become the reason for MOT failure.
There is separate conditions for completely deleting ABS and/or TCS but I’ll leave them out of this discussion.
Any way, from the feedback I got so far, it sounds like this AP1 conversion is far better than the sick classic ABS especially if you keep triggering the ABS/ALB warning light or had to disable the ABS because of it.
Best wishes for the future projects.
Kaz
Another owner in Japan converted ABS from later model Step Wagon (official name Step Wgn) into his NSX.
So, as you can see, it doesn’t have to be AP1 modulator as long as the required sensor input and trigger teeth conditions are met.
Here in UK, there is one owner driving his NSX with AP1 modulator as his original 1st gen classic ABS failed so he then switched to 2nd gen but still got tired of frequently triggering ABS pump noise and now converted to AP1.
He has disabled the TCS by disconnecting the connectors from the TCS unit.
His NSX is non-DBW.
Thank you to member 'britlude' for testing AP1 modulator on his NSX and even opening one of his AP1 circuit board.
In the above post #132 , he stated that AP1 modulator doesn't provide rear w/speed signal required for the TCS controller.
He wrote it so simple as if it was an easy task but in reality, he spent lots and lots of time on this especially around the time of last Christmas.
This is his photo posted on NSXCB site and included in the following link below.
You can feel how much effort went into his project;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?14147-collecting-parts-for-winter-project
As he wanted to keep TCS, he has now moved on from AP1 modulator to proper NSX ABS.
There is another owner in Europe who has just completed the AP1 conversion.
His NSX is so much modified that there was no point in using expensive NSX modulator as his weight distribution, brake setup, brake balance, etc are completely different from factory spec NSX.
He used AP1 conversion for R&D purpose before deciding what to do in the future.
Hope he can spend some time testing it but probably we need to wait a bit as he seemed to be triggering one of the w/speed sensor failure.
So, in summary, if using AP1 modulator, you will trigger TCS warning light unless you keep classic ABS controller and back feed the rear side w/speed signal into TCS controller without affecting the signal going into the AP1 ABS or use other signal I/F circuit to filter and level convert the rear w/speed signal for TCS.
Alternatively, you need to find one body ABS modulator that meets the requirements for ABS and TCS on NSX.
It’s not the end of the world because on non-DBW model, TCS control is very vague and almost like On/Off control that you can disable it, if you want.
You can disable it by simply disconnecting the connectors from the TCS controller.
You will no longer see the TCS light even during the bulb check mode when you turn the IG key into P2 On position.
Please note that by doing this, you will always store #36 (but WITHOUT triggering the CEL on the dash) in the ECU.
This is because there is no longer the communication link between ECU and TCS but in order to trigger the CEL on the dash, ECU must detect communication failure twice before IG Reset (IG key from P2 On to P1 ACC) and that’s impossible because it can only detect the missing link once when there is no TCS controller connected.
I have never disabled the TCS on DBW model so not sure of the effect or the end result.
By the way, if diabling TCS (or ABS), please make sure to check your local regulation especially in Japan and UK (and very likely to be the same in Europe).
There is new MOT regulation in place starting from this year regarding the dash warning light.
The MOT operator will now check the presence of ABS, TCS lights using bulb check mode, the presence of TCS On/Off switch and their operation by starting the engine, etc.
Therefore, if you disable the TCS (and/or ABS), depending on the local regulation, it will become the reason for MOT failure.
There is separate conditions for completely deleting ABS and/or TCS but I’ll leave them out of this discussion.
Any way, from the feedback I got so far, it sounds like this AP1 conversion is far better than the sick classic ABS especially if you keep triggering the ABS/ALB warning light or had to disable the ABS because of it.
Best wishes for the future projects.
Kaz
Last edited:
I wanted to add a picture of the pump I am using. This way if you want to get a pump from eBay or whatever, you will know what I bought.
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[MENTION=25737]Kaz-kzukNA1[/MENTION]
Kaz,
Can you tell me the best way to de-pin the large orange abs pump plug wires? Pictured here:
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Kaz,
Can you tell me the best way to de-pin the large orange abs pump plug wires? Pictured here:
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Hi, syndicate.
Pretty much the same as other WPC.
There will be a single lock mechanism restricting the movement of all of the individual retainers at each terminals.
Assuming you are holding the connector as per your photo above;
1. First, please slide the white big plastic lock mechanism towards the bottom of the photo. You can see the white lock mechanism sandwiched between the 4 largest terminals in the photo.
This will allow you to release/lift the retainer at each terminals in next step.
2. Release/lift the retainer at the specific terminal that you want to de-pin.
3. Once done, please remember to slide the white lock mechanism back in place towards the top of the photo.
Even if you forgot to do so, same action will happen automatically if the connector is still like new condition when the first time you press it against the mating connector.
Kaz
Pretty much the same as other WPC.
There will be a single lock mechanism restricting the movement of all of the individual retainers at each terminals.
Assuming you are holding the connector as per your photo above;
1. First, please slide the white big plastic lock mechanism towards the bottom of the photo. You can see the white lock mechanism sandwiched between the 4 largest terminals in the photo.
This will allow you to release/lift the retainer at each terminals in next step.
2. Release/lift the retainer at the specific terminal that you want to de-pin.
3. Once done, please remember to slide the white lock mechanism back in place towards the top of the photo.
Even if you forgot to do so, same action will happen automatically if the connector is still like new condition when the first time you press it against the mating connector.
Kaz
Thanks. I was hoping you could recommend a tool to release/lift the retainer. I was having trouble getting the retainer to release. In the image above, is the retainer access hole the tiny circular hole on the right of each terminal? Thanks for the help.
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You can check here for connectors, just in case 
http://ca.mouser.com/Connectors/Automotive-Connectors/_/N-1ehb5
Also, EDAC, amphenol are two major connector manufacturers. They also make various removal tools for different types of terminals in harnesses/plugs. Let us know if you find anything suitable! My ABS is still working OK so I haven't removed anything out of the car to check.
http://ca.mouser.com/Connectors/Automotive-Connectors/_/N-1ehb5
Also, EDAC, amphenol are two major connector manufacturers. They also make various removal tools for different types of terminals in harnesses/plugs. Let us know if you find anything suitable! My ABS is still working OK so I haven't removed anything out of the car to check.
FYI if anyone needs this I have most te stuff. Including the abs unit with orange plug. 4 or 5 out of the 6 total orange plugs, and I think two oem parts I ordered also. I went with a straight and delete.
Have a question that i’m hoping sydicate or kaz can ansswer.
Once you use the 2002 oem nsx abs bracket. You can reuse all the brake lines or would you still have to chance out the lines from the 2002 prop valve to the ap1abs unit.
I am trying to get all the parts and planning complete to undergo this project over the winter
thank you in advance for the clearification.
Once you use the 2002 oem nsx abs bracket. You can reuse all the brake lines or would you still have to chance out the lines from the 2002 prop valve to the ap1abs unit.
I am trying to get all the parts and planning complete to undergo this project over the winter
thank you in advance for the clearification.
I am using a 2002 s2000 abs pump with the 91 nsx abs bracket, 02+ nsx abs pump bracket and 91 nsx front abs lines. The rest of the lines are 02+ NSX. I hope that helps.
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Thanks. It does.
Thanks for the mod info. I'm doing wiring as we speak.
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You should mount the pump 90 deg counterclockwise from how it’s currently mounted.
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- Joined
- 26 June 2018
- Messages
- 8
Did you ever sell a kit? My 92 abs pump went bad and I almost crashed. Due to brakes locking up in the rain.. I need this ASAP.. thanks in advance
- Joined
- 26 June 2018
- Messages
- 8
Could I use the SoS harness with the s2000 pump?
