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Tracking the NSX at Laguna Seca - Oversteer and Overheating

Outside of driver tips, we have several tips to help reduce this or at least make it predictable (which is fun) but it's slippery slope. This is how the mods begin :)

Regan, all of your tips are going to result in the emptying of my wallet. :tongue:

After riding in Jeff L's car I'm pretty sold on KW V3 and his 215/265 tire setup for a street/track NSX. And don't get me started on the Stoptech BBK. There were a few moments when I thought we were going to fly into a tire wall.
 
my first guess on the loose rear would be your tire pressures may have been too high with a decrease in contact patch coupled with your inability to slow the car sufficiently in a straight line causing you to drag brakes into the corner entry .....you at least didn't try to muscle the steering wheel when lifting....
 
Oh you rode with Jeff? Yeah consider your paychecks gone. I'm copying his setup as closely as I can (I copied Regan's SC build, why recreate the wheel?) and I still need to install the Swift Springs into my KWs and Pole2Flag swaybars.

Do you have the rear beam bushings? Those made a huge difference in controlling the rear end and reduce/eliminate the snap oversteer. Stoptech's are my single favorite change to my car.
 
my first guess on the loose rear would be your tire pressures may have been too high with a decrease in contact patch coupled with your inability to slow the car sufficiently in a straight line causing you to drag brakes into the corner entry .....you at least didn't try to muscle the steering wheel when lifting....

Yep, my rear tire pressures after the first 20 minute session were 45 psi. Reduced it to 37 psi immediately before the 2nd session but both instances of oversteer in my video still happened about 10 minutes into the session.

Oh you rode with Jeff? Yeah consider your paychecks gone. I'm copying his setup as closely as I can (I copied Regan's SC build, why recreate the wheel?) and I still need to install the Swift Springs into my KWs and Pole2Flag swaybars.

Do you have the rear beam bushings? Those made a huge difference in controlling the rear end and reduce/eliminate the snap oversteer. Stoptech's are my single favorite change to my car.

I don't have the rear beam bushings. My car is totally stock at the moment. Once I decide to take the plunge with handling mods I'm going to pick Jeff's brain. His Stoptech BBK was definitely my favorite part of his car as well.

215/40/17 and 265/40/17?

I couldn't find any on tirerack

Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec comes in 215/40/17 and 265/35/18 on Tirerack.
 
Ah right, I forgot your car is completely stock. Based on the FB thread it seems like you've got modifying on the brain (this is Jami btw)? I would definitely recommend the rear beam bushings for the first modification. Jeff is definitely a wealth of knowledge. Hopefully I'll join you guys next time, but I was just at Thill West on Saturday, it was really hot there too.

Oddly enough Jeff's car and my car are pretty similar, the biggest difference is the driver, Jeff is waaaay faster than I am.
 
Ah right, I forgot your car is completely stock. Based on the FB thread it seems like you've got modifying on the brain (this is Jami btw)? I would definitely recommend the rear beam bushings for the first modification. Jeff is definitely a wealth of knowledge. Hopefully I'll join you guys next time, but I was just at Thill West on Saturday, it was really hot there too.

Oddly enough Jeff's car and my car are pretty similar, the biggest difference is the driver, Jeff is waaaay faster than I am.

Haha, Jeff is faster than pretty much everyone. One thing that was immediately evident when riding with him is that he's 100% confident in his ability to stop the car. He brakes so late and stands on the pedal so hard in a way that I would never even consider attempting with just my upgraded pads and fluid.

There are back to back track days with NCRC on Dec 10/11. Still pretty far out but I'm planning to go if I can. Maybe we can round up the NorCal (and SoCal) NSX-ers.
 
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Yeah he's working those brakes. One thing I picked up from him is to always be accelerating or braking. Less coasting.

Dec could work, but I think the norcal Nsx dinner is around then too right?
 
Yeah he's working those brakes. One thing I picked up from him is to always be accelerating or braking. Less coasting.

Dec could work, but I think the norcal Nsx dinner is around then too right?

Ah you're right. Dinner is on the 10th. Maybe we can track on the 11th.
 
In my opinion The Dunlop Direzza ZII are not a very good tire. I was in a pinch and had a set of these. The yoks are much better.

It is likely your tire pressures were still to high. It is best to come into the hot pits and check them immediately not allowing time for them to cool.

I noticed when the car steeped out in Turn 11 it appears that you started to get on the gas before unwinding the wheel. Turn 11 is a sharp turn and goal is to be able to get through it and back on the gas as soon as possible.
It is common folks step out at 11. been there done that... an Os Giken diff will help with the exit of 11.

The car stepped out on entry to the cork screw. You started to mover over to the apex before the turn in point. You would have had to put a little more searing input into the car to compensate. You were also likely going in a little to hot.

Hope this helps
Don
 
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In my opinion The Dunlop Direzza ZII are not a very good tire. I was in a pinch and had a set of these. The yoks are much better.

It is likely your tire pressures were still to high. It is best to come into the hot pits and check them immediately not allowing time for them to cool.

I noticed when the car steeped out in Turn 11 it appears that you started to get on the gas before unwinding the wheel. Turn 11 is a sharp turn and goal is to be able to get through it and back on the gas as soon as possible.
It is common folks step out at 11. been there done that... an Os Giken diff will help with the exit of 11.

The car stepped out on entry to the cork screw. You started to mover over to the apex before the turn in point. You would have had to put a little more searing input into the car to compensate. You were also likely going in a little to hot.

Hope this helps
Don

ZII's are the only tires I've tried on my NSX. Once they're done I may switch over to the AD08R.

Thanks for the suggestions. You're right, I went into the corkscrew a bit too hot because I knew that was the last lap I could push the car due to heatsoak. Not the smartest idea. :)
 
For the overheating, a vented hood will do a lot to prevent that. In my case i also run a Koyo rad which adds a little bit of cooling capacity, never had any issue on track with that combination.
 
ZII's are the only tires I've tried on my NSX. Once they're done I may switch over to the AD08R.

Thanks for the suggestions. You're right, I went into the corkscrew a bit too hot because I knew that was the last lap I could push the car due to heatsoak. Not the smartest idea. :)

Yes... I like the AD08R. On track I still use Hoosiers. :)
Vented hood and duel pass radiator will help. I have Shads radiator. This works great.
If you get a vented hood make sure to clear coat it or paint it. In a year or two the gel coat will go if you don't clear coat it... Ask me how I know...

You can actually carry a lot of speed into the cork screw. If you use the full width of the track it requires less steering input than one would expect.

Track masters has some events coming up at Laguna... maybe I'll see you out there.
Monday I was at Sears Point... It was Hot! 99


Later,
Don
 
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Yes... I like the AD08R. On track I still use Hoosiers. :)
Vented hood and duel pass radiator will help. I have Shads radiator. This works great.
If you get a vented hood make sure to clear coat it or paint it. In a year or two the gel coat will go if you don't clear coat it... Ask me how I know...

You can actually carry a lot of speed into the cork screw. If you use the full width of the track it requires less steering input than one would expect.

Track masters has some events coming up at Laguna... maybe I'll see you out there.
Monday I was at Sears Point... It was Hot! 99


Later,
Don
I'll have to look up those Laguna dates! I'm itching for a MRLS track day.
 
Cool video. You look to be off to a good start with your driving; especially in what sounds to be a near stock car. Without being in the car with you, you already seem to be confident with simultaneous throttle application and small steering corrections- thats one of the hardest thing to teach. Maybe, again im not in the car next to you, it looks like you can get harder on the brakes. Not saying you need BBK- just saying use what's there. MOSTLY I recommend getting professional instruction before spending anything on big ticket items; you are fast enough now that you're gunna start to cement bad habits.... Take the money you'd spend on the BBK or whatever else and do minor mods that focus on longevity and safety then sign up with a GOOD 'pay for the day' instructor (not just a guy that is getting free track time to sit with strangers that are trying to kill him.)

Its easy to go ape on buying stuff, especially after riding in a car that 'set up' and seeing all that room for improvement on your own.

Remember you want to be a fast DRIVER not just own a fast CAR.
 
For the overheating, a vented hood will do a lot to prevent that. In my case i also run a Koyo rad which adds a little bit of cooling capacity, never had any issue on track with that combination.

I just ordered the MASiV radiator per Regan's recommendation. You're the 3rd person to recommend a vented hood today so I may look into that after I see how the new radiator performs on track.

Yes... I like the AD08R. On track I still use Hoosiers. :)
Vented hood and duel pass radiator will help. I have Shads radiator. This works great.
If you get a vented hood make sure to clear coat it or paint it. In a year or two the gel coat will go if you don't clear coat it... Ask me how I know...

You can actually carry a lot of speed into the cork screw. If you use the full width of the track it requires less steering input than one would expect.

Track masters has some events coming up at Laguna... maybe I'll see you out there.
Monday I was at Sears Point... It was Hot! 99


Later,
Don

And now the 4th person. :)

I checked Trackmasters' site and didn't see any Laguna track days coming up... is the Mazda Friends & Family event an open track day?

Cool video. You look to be off to a good start with your driving; especially in what sounds to be a near stock car. Without being in the car with you, you already seem to be confident with simultaneous throttle application and small steering corrections- thats one of the hardest thing to teach. Maybe, again im not in the car next to you, it looks like you can get harder on the brakes. Not saying you need BBK- just saying use what's there. MOSTLY I recommend getting professional instruction before spending anything on big ticket items; you are fast enough now that you're gunna start to cement bad habits.... Take the money you'd spend on the BBK or whatever else and do minor mods that focus on longevity and safety then sign up with a GOOD 'pay for the day' instructor (not just a guy that is getting free track time to sit with strangers that are trying to kill him.)

Its easy to go ape on buying stuff, especially after riding in a car that 'set up' and seeing all that room for improvement on your own.

Remember you want to be a fast DRIVER not just own a fast CAR.

Thanks, I appreciate the suggestions.

I can certainly brake harder. I was leaving a bit of buffer since it was my first session of the day and wanted to see how the pads and fluid would hold up. They performed fine but I didn't get to push the car again after the temps shot up in the 2nd session. I am concerned by how quickly the car snaps into oversteer. It makes it quite challenging to drive. The car just feels like it always wants to snap from understeer to oversteer with barely any warning.

The modifications I'd like to do eventually would result in a more progressive break-away at the limit. I imagine that can be achieved to a large extent through coilovers, sway bars, and wheels/tires. Right now I'm focusing on reliability (heat management and brakes) as you mentioned, so that I can push the car with confidence that something won't break. The very last thing I want to add is power, and that would only come once I'm very comfortable pushing lap after lap. But I'm already happy with the stock 270hp.

- - - Updated - - -

He's saying... don't be me

:biggrin:
 
As illwillem suggested it is you who is letting the car push then get loose....I have been on track with fast guys in stock cars and they are in control regardless of grip levels..they are working hard with lots of corrections, fast hands and twinkle toes.....optimize your brakes/tire pressures, and get seat time with good instructors..... find one with a in car communicator like chatterbox ect ...a baffled oil pan may not be a bad idea if you start to push on R comps.Have fun!
 
Yep, my rear tire pressures after the first 20 minute session were 45 psi. Reduced it to 37 psi immediately before the 2nd session but both instances of oversteer in my video still happened about 10 minutes into the session.

I don't have the rear beam bushings. My car is totally stock at the moment. Once I decide to take the plunge with handling mods I'm going to pick Jeff's brain. His Stoptech BBK was definitely my favorite part of his car as well.

Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec comes in 215/40/17 and 265/35/18 on Tirerack.
I agree with most of the comments given so far. 45psi is bit too high, and if you waited 30 mins or so between sessions to drop the pressure to 37psi just before your next session, it's likely your pressures were still too high. As others have said, you need to check your pressures immediately after coming off the track, preferably with little to no cooldown.

Are you on stock 205/225 width tires?

I'm not a huge fan of HP+ pads, I would go with something a bit better.

Overall your driving looked pretty good. The NSX is a well balanced chassis and does what you tell it to. Heavy trailbraking is good to rotate the car, and it actually does, but if you didn't want that entering thre corkscrew, you need to back up your braking point to not trailbraking (and rotate) as much when turning in to the corner.

I would hardly call your moments "big snaps", you didn't let them get that far out of whack and caught the slides fairly early. Your big OS moment in T11 was from trailbraking, unloading the rear, upsetting the car over the curb, then aggressively getting on throttle. Keep in mind if you do get oversteer, DONT punch the throttle. That's a really bad habit to get into. As skip barber teaches: "When in doubt, both feet out". As others have said, keep learning the car. Most of the issues are self induced.

The standard size is a 215/265 on a 17x7.5 and 18x9.5 personally I'd go with a 17x8 and 18x10 and use a 275 rear tire.

+1 on seriously considering a baffled oil pan sooner than later.

I'm a bit surprised you were having heating issues with stock power. Not sure if your radiator is just old and clogged, or if the radiator fins are all smashed in to reduce its cooling ability.
 
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