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Direct swap iron rotors for OEM Carbon Calipers.

C

chrisn

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So, the NSX brakes are obviously by Brembo. Does anyone know (or know how to find out) if the exact parts are used in another OEM or aftermarket package? I'm hoping it is not a one-off design.

In particular, I am hoping that there will soon be an aftermarket iron rotor that can be swapped in place of the ceramics. This is common for Porsches and Corvettes with ceramic brakes, but those platforms have a lot of aftermarket support for track enthusiasts.

I have no idea how many track days the rotors are good for, but it has to be a painful amortization for what I consider to be virtually zero benefit. I have not encountered anyone who pays for their are pads/rotors who think ceramics are "worth it" for casual track work.
 
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RYU said:
I would be very surprised if a swap wasn't available. What worries me is the programming. I'd have to assume that the programming is specific to carbon ceramic braking characteristics.
Click to expand...

What programming? Are you thinking of the active handling stuff? I've swapped around entire brake setups, as well as different rotors, pad compounds, etc. on various cars (not to mention tires, which is a big factor in braking--- and surface conditions--- wet versus dry) with these systems and never had any issues. I think, of necessity, these systems need to have very sensitive sensors and feedback loops to adapt to real-world factors.

But who knows, maybe they do tweak the tuning a bit for carbon versus iron rotors on the NSX given its additional complexity. Hard to know.
 
chrisn said:
What programming? Are you thinking of the active handling stuff? I've swapped around entire brake setups, as well as different rotors, pad compounds, etc. on various cars (not to mention tires, which is a big factor in braking--- and surface conditions--- wet versus dry) with these systems and never had any issues. I think, of necessity, these systems need to have very sensitive sensors and feedback loops to adapt to real-world factors.

But who knows, maybe they do tweak the tuning a bit for carbon versus iron rotors on the NSX given its additional complexity. Hard to know.
Click to expand...
Let me preface that this is purely speculation so I really don't know WTF i'm talking about... BUT... i'd have to assume that they spent so much time perfecting the "feel" of the brakes. I think you can attest to that. To me, that's simply a feat short of amazing since all that stuff is essentially a Drive By Wire braking system. If you change out a component like more aggressive pads, or heck.. swap out to steel brake rotors and semi metalic pads... who knows how the electronics will behave? It might throw out all sorts of codes.
 
I think what ryu is saying or asking is the rotor thickness of the steel similar to the carbon in the same diameter. if not can the calipers optimize brake pad pressures given a difference.
 
docjohn said:
I think what ryu is saying or asking is the rotor thickness of the steel similar to the carbon in the same diameter. if not can the calipers optimize brake pad pressures given a difference.
Click to expand...
Not quite John since i'm assuming the physical dimensions Chris is looking at would have to be substantially the same if not identical. Having designed a few brake kits myself, it's not a difficult process to fit physically, however tuning brake bias, understanding heat expansion issues, and coefficient of friction considerations can make things complicated to get perfect... it just feels like we're missing something with the programming side of the equation.

Again, if the NC1 brakes feel is as good as everyone says it is.. it's nothing short of amazing. There are so many factors involved in a DBW system. However, since the DBW throttle and even DBW steering systems are quite good these days it was a matter of time the brakes would follow.
 
Fair points, but it would be easy for the driver to adapt to different pedal feedback, so I'm not worried about that. I wonder how Acura deals with their own iron versus ceramic setups-- if the brake by wire needs different tuning.

But, in terms of active handling and stability stuff, I continue to think that a system requiring precise tuning in terms of hydraulic pressure input versus braking force experienced by the chassis would not work in the real world. I think it would need to instead rely on reading sensors and making adjustments dozens or hundreds of times a second.

- - - Updated - - -

docjohn said:
I think what ryu is saying or asking is the rotor thickness of the steel similar to the carbon in the same diameter. if not can the calipers optimize brake pad pressures given a difference.
Click to expand...

As RYU noted, the "swap" parts are of identical dimensions. I'm thinking of something like this ($2K instead of $10K to replace front rotors):

http://www.rennline.com/Brembo-Type-III-2-piece-Direct-Replacement-Rotors-Rear/productinfo/CS-202.8004A/
 
I'm probably over thinking this but if the NSX can adapt for different tires then i'd have to assume it would be smart enough to adapt to different brake characteristics. However, the steel vs. carbon brakes might be substantial enough that Honda decided to put the "programming/tuning" for that on the back burner. I wouldn't be surprised of the later. I know a little bit about the computer controlled braking parameters on a McLaren that only the dealers have access to... it's a decent amount of parameters that, when adjusted, can have significant affect on brake feel and performance.

My brain is too small to know all the answers for this unfortunately. I'm just rambling really...
 
Well if we where to get our hands on technical data we can easily have a steel conversion kit produced.
I likely have items already on the shelf from the Maserati/Ferrari's we do (Also Brembo carbon ceramic)

So if your adamant on needing the iron dics conversion i'd be very happy to look in to this for you.
 
You can get them from Europe as we get steel brake discs in the base model.

Just wondering what the price difference between carbon and steel brake parts are...
 
The tech at my dealer went for trainin in Ohio.
They were given a carbon disk to heft.
He said it was very light and about 1 1/4 inches thick.

Would steel rotors be thinner?
Would the carbon calipers work with a thinner steel disk?
 
From a German car review the steel disk are 33 mm which is about 1 1/4 mm. It's not very likely that they use a different capiper for such a low volume car.
 
chrisn said:
So, the NSX brakes are obviously by Brembo. Does anyone know (or know how to find out) if the exact parts are used in another OEM or aftermarket package? I'm hoping it is not a one-off design.

In particular, I am hoping that there will soon be an aftermarket iron rotor that can be swapped in place of the ceramics. This is common for Porsches and Corvettes with ceramic brakes, but those platforms have a lot of aftermarket support for track enthusiasts.

I have no idea how many track days the rotors are good for, but it has to be a painful amortization for what I consider to be virtually zero benefit. I have not encountered anyone who pays for their are pads/rotors who think ceramics are "worth it" for casual track work.
Click to expand...

RacingBrake can help. We offer more CCM to Iron conversion than any other brake company.

Aston Martin
Ferrari
Porsche
Corvette ZR1/Camaro Z28
BMW M3/M4
Audi
Mercedes
Dodge Viper
​

Just to name a few.

Rotor size ranging from the smallest Porsche 997 rear (350mm) to the largest 420mm for Audi RS7 and Mercedes S

We also offer a complete CCM brake upgrade for those high horse power track car communities such as GTR and Porsche.

CCM brake upgrade using ZR1 CCM discs is now available for G1 NSX.

http://www.racingbrake.com/Carbon-Ceramic-Brakes-s/7196.htm
 
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A.S. Motorsport said:
FYI, we had/have a setup ready but canceled the project after discussing it with the Acura brake engineers.
The way the new NSX works would cause this to possibly produce a number of side effects issues electronically and in the braking system.
Click to expand...

Bummer. When the OEM iron brakes start to ship, will there need to be a software tweak for that set-up versus the OEM ceramic set-up? Plan B was to see if I can buy the OEM iron set-up from Acura and swap parts. Maybe not so easy. Or maybe dealer can make the changes needed
 
chrisn said:
Bummer. When the OEM iron brakes start to ship, will there need to be a software tweak for that set-up versus the OEM ceramic set-up? Plan B was to see if I can buy the OEM iron set-up from Acura and swap parts. Maybe not so easy. Or maybe dealer can make the changes needed
Click to expand...
Full programming of the brake system, possibly new master cylinder and possibly updates to the SH-AWD and regenerative braking system
 
chrisn said:
Bummer. When the OEM iron brakes start to ship, will there need to be a software tweak for that set-up versus the OEM ceramic set-up? Plan B was to see if I can buy the OEM iron set-up from Acura and swap parts. Maybe not so easy. Or maybe dealer can make the changes needed
Click to expand...

This is just another "control scare" that those car mfgr/deals are playing so that you "should" only bring your car to them under their "program". We shipped more brake conversions (CCM to iron, iron to CCM) than any competition. From the earliest factory CCM (Ferrari) to the latest BMW F80 M3/M4 (Sold 3 conversions) and in between Corvette ZR1 / Camaro Z28, never such a thing (re-program) is true.

We have hundreds of customer (track users) made this conversion and proven that switching rotor material does not require any re-program in any car make, but I know someone is keen to car maker's advice elect to believe it that his choice, we respect and will not debate on that.

Once again we like to prove the same to NSX community, so if anyone lives nearby us in Orange, LA or Dan Diego county can bring his G2 CCM equipped NSX to our shop, it shall take us 2-3 hours to check the spindles, and once dimension is verified with our portable CMM, the iron conversion rotors will be made available in 3-4 weeks - Guaranteed.

Ideally is this NSX owner would track his car, so we can work together to keep other NSX owners informed of his conversion. PM us if you are interested and you will be sponsored by RacingBrake (RB), including brake pads upgrade and future system upgrade etc.)
 
RacingBrake said:
This is just another "control scare" that those car mfgr/deals are playing so that you "should" only bring your car to them under their "program". We shipped more brake conversions (CCM to iron, iron to CCM) than any competition. From the earliest factory CCM (Ferrari) to the latest BMW F80 M3/M4 (Sold 3 conversions) and in between Corvette ZR1 / Camaro Z28, never such a thing (re-program) is true.

We have hundreds of customer (track users) made this conversion and proven that switching rotor material does not require any re-program in any car make, but I know someone is keen to car maker's advice elect to believe it that his choice, we respect and will not debate on that.

Once again we like to prove the same to NSX community, so if anyone lives nearby us in Orange, LA or Dan Diego county can bring his G2 CCM equipped NSX to our shop, it shall take us 2-3 hours to check the spindles, and once dimension is verified with our portable CMM, the iron conversion rotors will be made available in 3-4 weeks - Guaranteed.

Ideally is this NSX owner would track his car, so we can work together to keep other NSX owners informed of his conversion. PM us if you are interested and you will be sponsored by RacingBrake (RB), including brake pads upgrade and future system upgrade etc.)
Click to expand...

With all due respect you are comparing apples to oranges, AFAIK none of the vehicles that you mentioned are high performance hybrid vehicles that use brake by wire with assisted regenerative braking.

As you mentioned CCM to Iron Disc have been going around forever for vehicles that have traditional brakes.

That doesn't directly imply that it will work on a vehicle like the NSX2.0, what kind of guarantee can you make that your proposed replacement package won't result in corner cases that could lead to crashes to the so called "Beta Testers" for your product when pushed on the track?

It sure seems to me that A.S. Motorsports spent the time to think through things.

Hate vendors who just want to jump in and ask for guinea pigs on car forums, buy your own car and do the R&D before using actual owners as Beta Testers.
 
Working with car enthusiasts in brake development especially for new model is very common for any brake company, in any motorsports community. May be not in NSX community from how it sounds but only time can tell.
 
I recall my dealer tech saying simple disc swap not possible as there are numerous related components with dimensions which are different. I don't recall details but think he said bearings plus calipers etc. are different and not interchangeable. But I could be wrong.
Maybe Master Tech can weigh in on this.
I have to ask, if you already have the carbon ceramics which work pretty damn good, what is advantage and reasonng to go backwards to a lesser design and all the changes which may be needed?
 
Gadgetman said:
I have to ask, if you already have the carbon ceramics which work pretty damn good, what is advantage and reasonng to go backwards to a lesser design and all the changes which may be needed?
Click to expand...

The consumables costs of the pads and rotors for Ceramic brakes are MUCH MUCH higher if you track the car at all. Plus, at least on other cars, they don't seem to work any better-- so what's the point? Lots more choices for pad material for iron brakes. Finally, the stock Ceramic brakes seem to eat rear pads at an alarming and uneven (top to bottom taper) rate.

That's why.
 
Well said. Performance and cost of replacement.

Aston Martin DBS equipped with CCB and we are shipping more iron to CCB conversion than other luxurious cars due to OE CCB brakes squeak too much, too loud to put up with although most of these customers are for street driving.

Just an option available for you to choose in case you feel the need down the road.
 

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