The Official 2017 F1 thread

My money is on the LH & Merc....but it is really nice to see some real racing with both these Teams and drivers.

Bram

Seems the Marc's may have tire issues. The saw qualifying and Ferrari changed tires just before Q3 and it seemed to work. Vettle was on it.

funny to watch Toto and Niki. they've had it all their way for a long time. they welcomed the competition, and now it looks like they want to cry... :blue:

Maybe it is a 3 horse race after all.

very happy to see Bottas win today, and excellent to have another player in the game...

Followed the race via Live timing, and Reddit last night.

Seemed like a good race for Botas who was able to get his maiden win, good performance for Vettel as well as Kimi, completely baffled by Hammy's woes.

I couldn't believe that McLaren had yet another DNS, what in the world is wrong with Honda?

The in-season testing showed at least some promise but this is getting ridiculous, are they intentionallly trying to trigger Alonso's performance clause so he walks out on the team mid-season?

Maybe Renault drops Palmer who is doing awful and hires Alonso to replace him, would not mind seeing a head to head between the Hulk and Alonso.

It also turns out that the rumors of Honda providing PU to Sauber were true for next year. Sauber must be in real need of funds (maybe even free PU) to even consider Honda at this point.

every facet relating to this Honda powered comeback is completely baffling beyond any comprehension...

And now someone else wants the Honda powerplant for next season?!

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/352533/honda-to-supply-sauber-from-2018/

Well deserved win by a straight up guy. Vettel had nothing for Bottas even if Massa gave him the whole track. If the race had another one or two laps it may have been a different story.

guanacoracing said:

And now someone else wants the Honda powerplant for next season?!

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/352533/honda-to-supply-sauber-from-2018/

Click to expand...

yeah, absurd...

Could it be that Honda is trying to minimize the possible disaster of McL going to Merc for engines ?
One has to admire the "straight face" Honda keeps after 3 years of embarrasment; other OEMs would have fled the scene by now. Everyone is baffled even the guys here at HPD.

Just a wild guess....Mcl is gone with Merc next year... Is it Possible that Honda is looking to Buy Sauber?

Thoughts?

Bram

the McLaren with a Mercedes engine should be a force, and i can imagine Alonso would be significantly happier...

Bram said:

Just a wild guess....Mcl is gone with Merc next year... Is it Possible that Honda is looking to Buy Sauber?

Thoughts?

Bram

Click to expand...

McLaren would have to do some serious sponsor shopping for that to happen!! Honda pay [all or most of, depending on where you read it] Alonso's bill, give McLaren free engines and probably top up the McLaren coffers over and above that.

Unless there is some seriously good contract clauses, dumping Honda would mean not only having to find money to pay a second driver, but also stumping up millions to fund the Merc engine.

I think McLaren have made their bed with Honda, and they will have to lie in it for some time to come. The Sauber deal is actually good news for McLaren, they get to sell some transmissions to Sauber, and Honda get feedback from 2 more cars that should help speed up development.

While the past 3 years have been disastrous for both Honda and McLaren [and us supporters], we should never loose sight of the fact that Honda have been doing their research and development in a very public domain [and with one hand tied behind their back until this year] since their first PU was put in the back of the McLaren mule. The other manufacturers had started years earlier, and even then they had initial issues [how many PU failures did Renault and Ferrari have just last year?]. Then, almost shockingly, this year Honda tore up the design manual and decided to start afresh, with their current disastrous situation the result of that!

Did they do the right thing in starting afresh? We'll only know at the end of this year I'm afraid. The path they've taken, splitting the ancillaries on either side of the block, which mimics the Mercedes design, was reportedly the hardest part of the Mercedes design to get right. It took a long time and lots of clever engineering to perfect the long connecting shaft concept, time and effort that the world did not see as it was done well before these PU's we raced in anger.

Who knows, perhaps a retrospective analysis of the current PUs in twenty years time will be applauding Honda's effort in bridging the power gap to Mercedes and now Ferrari in such a public manner and in a relatively short time frame?

We can only hope.

I agree with most of what you have stated, however knowing a bit of how Honda operates a new design is always around the corner.

Bram

sadlerau said:

While the past 3 years have been disastrous for both Honda and McLaren [and us supporters], we should never loose sight of the fact that Honda have been doing their research and development in a very public domain [and with one hand tied behind their back until this year] since their first PU was put in the back of the McLaren mule. The other manufacturers had started years earlier, and even then they had initial issues [how many PU failures did Renault and Ferrari have just last year?]. Then, almost shockingly, this year Honda tore up the design manual and decided to start afresh, with their current disastrous situation the result of that!

Did they do the right thing in starting afresh? We'll only know at the end of this year I'm afraid. The path they've taken, splitting the ancillaries on either side of the block, which mimics the Mercedes design, was reportedly the hardest part of the Mercedes design to get right. It took a long time and lots of clever engineering to perfect the long connecting shaft concept, time and effort that the world did not see as it was done well before these PU's we raced in anger.

Who knows, perhaps a retrospective analysis of the current PUs in twenty years time will be applauding Honda's effort in bridging the power gap to Mercedes and now Ferrari in such a public manner and in a relatively short time frame?

Click to expand...

i'm curious, are you more or less saying that Honda copied (some of) Mercedes engine design?

and aren't they still about 100 horsepower down on Merc and Ferrari?

Yes, it is my understanding that Honda are copying some of [most of?] Mercedes' engine layout. Here is a picture that shows the basic layouts of the 2015 PU's.










The original Honda ICE had a very small compressor sitting in the Vee of the block, with a shortish shaft running back to the turbine feeding off the exhaust. Ferrari and Renault went with a more conventional design, with the impeller turbine and compressor close together. Mercedes on the other hand went with the compressor and turbine at opposite ends of the block, which necessitates a very long connector shaft, spinning at incredible speeds and needing very special bearings to carry the loads.

Apparently Honda realised very quickly the their compressor was seriously under sized [they had made some very basic bad assumptions when the started designing the ICE], and at first they thought that they could overcome the size issue with more rotational speed. But alas, that was also a bad assumption. So last year they decided they needed to give themselves more room for the compressor, so they went with a layout that I believe mimics the Mercedes layout - but that means they have to adopt the 'dreaded' long shaft layout.

And yes, the current motor is well over 100hp down on the Merc and Ferrari engine. Probably at least 100hp down on the Renault as well! But that number is more due to the vibration issues they are experiencing than any fundamental design flaw [I hope!]. Of course the vibration issue has been attributed to the Turbulent Jet Ignition [JTI] head design, but I wonder if they aren't also having trouble with the connector shaft?

At least that's my understanding of an incredibly complex system these PU's are.

thanks for the insight. seems like they're not making any ground on the Europeans any time soon either...

It ain't necessarily the Europeans.

Joe Saward mentioned that the man at Mahle responsible for the development of the TJI which is used by Ferrari [and I think also Mercedes] is an Aussie by the name of William Attard. But he has since left Mahle and now works for Fiat Chrysler Automotive.

Maybe that's what Honda need, a Phil Irving or Ron Tauranac to bash them into line. "Hey guys, enough of the redesign roundabout, let's just build the thing and fucking perfect it, so it gives lots of grunt and doesn't fucking break down every other lap!"

Sounds like Honda has a B team working in F1, because their Indycar and motoGP is working well. Of course the later 2 series are mostly ICE driven. Honda may want to look at WEC too since hybrid tech is used there.

the Honda MotoGP bike has its issues and isn't well sorted either. it actually got motored by the Suzuki down the long straight at Qatar (which is shocking), the Yamaha, and of course the Ducati (which devastates everything down any straight). but it's handling isn't specifically sorted either. the (Yamaha) M1 is generally regarded as the best overall and competitive package out there, perfectly balanced in every way. take Marquez out of the equation, and Honda wouldn't be winning nearly as often these days.

and Honda's WSBK program is almost as embarrassing as its F1 debacle: https://www.superbikeplanet.com/truth-roger-lees-suzuki-superbike-faster-nickys-honda-wsbk-honda/


"It’s been a strange season for Honda fans in 2017. In Formula One, the McLaren Honda team are even less competitive than Honda seems to be in WSBK. Events that would have never been tolerated if Mr Honda were alive to see them occur with regularity. But, then, Soichiro Honda has been dead for over twenty years now."

Maybe honda needs to spend more money on hiring away bright talent from other companies rather than keep relying on the preexisting in house minds...Anyway Botas could not be a more gracious first time winner after 80 starts...brings us back to the age old question..at the F1 level what is more important...car or driver?On the other hand in this case his start and luck that he was not touched in the process of getting to turn 2 was his best move.

in Formula 1, without a top car or bad weather conditions, i don't think anyone can win...

Based on the FP 1&2 results in Spain, it looks like Merc got their Mojo back!

Bram

and Honda shit itself again