What is going on with these dealerships...Honda lost a real customer

Tom239 · 31 December 2016

Bricks and Bio said:
But in terms of deals, you can't negotiate on the car and the Tesla employee was up front with me noting that if you have a trade, they will be on the low end regarding valuation of that.

Works for me. I have nothing against negotiation per se, but there's negotiation and then there's the way car dealers behave during negotiation. In my experience, no other type of merchant has said things as insulting and dopey as what I've experienced over the years at car dealerships.

And I never expect good trade in deals, I've preferred to sell used cars privately anyway.

Bricks and Bio · 31 December 2016

For most deals, I agree with you Tom and I typically sold my cars privately in the past.

I also sold a car to Car Max and had a very good experience (in 2013 when used cars valuations were on the high side).

When I bought my Q50S Hybrid, the dealer bumped up the trade value on my IS350 such that the sales taxes savings from the trade came more into play.

powdbyrice · 31 December 2016

Esprit9 said:
I'm sadden by my experience with trying to buy a new NSX in Acura dealerships. I owned an '05 for 8 years and loved every minute of it and love all my Honda products. I waited for the Gen2 and waited for the Iron brakes. I have sat down with the Steven Creek Acura, Acura of Pleasenton, Modesto Acura, Acura Thousand Oaks, and Fresno Acura.
* 2 of the 5 would not let me and my wife sit in the NSX
* 2 of the 5 tried really hard to sell me a different Acura and not the NSX... My wife and I couldn't believe it...
* 3 of the 5 were willing to discount their NSX on the floor (still too costly)
* 2 of the 5 either did not believe I would buy one and would not take me seriously, could not figure out the online customization (showed them), said there was no cup holder (I pointed to the glove box and said, "it's in there..")

* 3 of the 4 ran lease numbers for me:
$163,300 MSRP
$30K Down w/ 7500 miles a year
36month lease
Residual 54% and .00250 MF
$1950 a month

** I am writing a letter to American Honda Motor Co. on some of my treatment at the dealership (no call backs, wouldn't let me and my wife near the car, Trying to say we needed to pay a premium to pay for service tools, etc.. **

I WAS A CUSTOMER ... I WANTED TO BUY THEIR NSX but they ruined that opportunity and it saddens me..

I walked over to Audi Steven Creek (well.. drove two blocks).. test drove their black 2017 R8 Plus which caused me to purchase a new (non plus) R8 (shipping from MA to Cali). Overwhelming better treatment, allowed me to test drive and completely changed my mind on Audi..

Lease:
$173500 MSRP
$14K Down w/ 7500 miles a year
36 month lease
Residual 71% and .00178 MF
$1560 a month

Thought I would share my experience and hope Honda hears these stories and begins to take action..

First mistake was going to Autonation Acura.

Should have come and seen me. I'm at fremont.

powdbyrice · 31 December 2016

MasterNSXTech said:
American Honda really made it clear that this is a special car and the customers will be extra critical about things like excessive miles. Some dealers are not even test driving the car at PDI just to avoid tacking a few more miles on the clock. Let's face it, this isn't some MDX where people are more concerned about how much room is in the back seat. The power is a big selling point. So if allow the car to be test driven it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that whoever drives it is going to lay into to the throttle. For. Sure. And everyone knows it. Let a few people drive it and now all of a sudden, this car has 20-30 miles on it. Now we have a used car. A car with 30 miles that everyone knows were not the most gentle miles. This becomes a point of contention and now maybe the customer feels that the car is no longer worth full price. This is why an "open box" tv has a discount at Best Buy. Except the NSX isn't a 50" flatscreen with a $50 discount...this "open box" could cost the store $5k or maybe more.

yup, in the online training, one of the "characteristics of an nsx buyer" is "wants a car with zero miles."

Hothonda · 31 December 2016

Most prospective buyers in my experience would rather learn than teach.....

GM_FFX · 1 January 2017

MasterNSXTech said:
Oh we hear them. Some of those stores you visited are actually pretty big dealers. Big enough to get allocated more than the one or two NSXs for the year and that's it. They got that big for a reason so it's sad to hear they've lost their way and treated you and your wife like you don't matter.

Not that I expect you to back out of your R8 deal and come give my dealer a chance, but let me explain what's possibly happened here. Every NSX dealer has to have dedicated personnel for the NSX. Sales consultant, service advisor, and a master technician at a minimum. Notice that I used singular titles? If you walk into an Acura showroom at a time when the one salesman who was trained to sell this car isn't there, and damn does that sure happen quite a bit at my store, then someone else who isn't the best person for the job will fill in as best they can. But they don't know stuff like the car actually does have a cup holder. At my store, there is a NSX specialist on the property at all times, just in case a potential customer has questions and/or needs to be shown the car.

Enjoy your new R8. I truly believe that the NSX is the better car of the two. But after all that I completely understand why we've lost your business. AHFC's absolutely crappy money factor on the lease is not helping us dealers either on customers who are cross shopping us against the R8 or perhaps the 570S McLaren.

The leather trim scuffs very easily. Only NSX Specialists are allowed to drive or even touch the car at dealerships. And we try to keep customer contact to a bare minimum. Of course a qualified customer that legitimately interested and we're showing the car to can paw at it, open the doors, sit in it, and we might even start it up and let them hear the engine and different muffler settings. But someone just "killing time" because they're in the showroom while they wait for their RDX to finish getting an A1 service done? Sure we'll answer questions. But they ain't touching the car. Most dealers rope off the car just to pretty much imply that very thing without anyone actually saying please don't touch.

I'm sorry but this is just not true, the 3 NSX specialists I met in person were not knowledgeable about the car, they did receive special training at the factory but that wasn't enough. All three had absolutely no clue what was happening throughout the ordering and manufacturing process. Acura kept them in the dark and would constantly promise updates that never came. They didn't know how to use the online configurator and they honestly told me it was a gimmick, they are used to sell $30k sedans they just disnt understand what it means to sell a $200k car.
All they did while I was there was how much that cabinet cost and how Acura forced them to buy it.

Esprit9 · 1 January 2017

GM_FFX said:
.... they are used to sell $30k sedans they just didnt understand what it means to sell a $200k car.
...

I was impressed with two of the five dealerships I visited and worked with.. They were honest from the beginning and stated they did not know everything about the NSX and admitted that the Honda dealership down the road has had more sports car experience in and out of their dealership than their own Acura dealership. One of the dealerships I worked with were also very honest and warned prior to running the lease numbers of how terribly bad they are. I still had them run it and just about fell off my chair when he showed them.

GM_FFX · 1 January 2017

Esprit9 said:
I was impressed with two of the five dealerships I visited and worked with.. They were honest from the beginning and stated they did not know everything about the NSX and admitted that the Honda dealership down the road has had more sports car experience in and out of their dealership than their own Acura dealership. One of the dealerships I worked with were also very honest and warned prior to running the lease numbers of how terribly bad they are. I still had them run it and just about fell off my chair when he showed them.

All I keep hearing was them complaining on how Acura forced them to buy the cabinet and the special tools, how Acura would not provide proper information and updates. They told me I would go see my future car being assembled. They told me cars were being manufactured for customers only (no dealer order), they told me they would tell me in advance when the car was complete and the delivery date.
I got a call on a Saturday morning that the car would be there in 20 minutes. Part of the deal was that I would be there when the truck showed up. When asked the vice president why they didn't notify me in time the answer was "do you know how many car I get delivered at my dealership? I can't keep track
Of all".

powdbyrice · 1 January 2017

GM_FFX said:
All I keep hearing was them complaining on how Acura forced them to buy the cabinet and the special tools, how Acura would not provide proper information and updates.
This is true. Well documented in the other thread.

They told me I would go see my future car being assembled.
We were never told that. Was told factory tours and track time would be available at a later time.

They told me cars were being manufactured for customers only (no dealer order),
Sort of true. if the stores didn't have a buyer lined up, then the store ordered whatever they wanted.

they told me they would tell me in advance when the car was complete and the delivery date.
They should have known that. The NSX specialist has access to the NSX tracker.

I got a call on a Saturday morning that the car would be there in 20 minutes. Part of the deal was that I would be there when the truck showed up. When asked the vice president why they didn't notify me in time the answer was "do you know how many car I get delivered at my dealership? I can't keep track
Of all".
That's just stupid on their part.

my thoughts.

tucsonsx · 1 January 2017

Bricks and Bio said:
I do like the Tesla model regarding being consumer friendly on the learn about/try the car stuff.

But in terms of deals, you can't negotiate on the car and the Tesla employee was up front with me noting that if you have a trade, they will be on the low end regarding valuation of that.

All you are doing when you " negotiate " at a dealer is reduce the dealer mark-up. The dealer pays a set amount to buy the car from the manufacturer. There are, of course, rebates, factory money, and the hold back games that the OEMs love to play but at the end of the day the dealer knows what the car cost him. They set a number that they won't go below, so all that really happens is that the employees who are working with you are seeing their already meager pay get lower. That is why they really don't care what happens ( that is how you know you got a " good " deal - when they can't wait to see your tail lights as you cross the curb ). When the dealership middleman is eliminated there is no need to play negotiation games. In my experience the customer really just wants to know that they did not pay more than someone else for whatever reason and they already know that they are getting hammered on their trade-in where ever they go so they would much rather just be told that the actual cash value of the trade will be low rather than see it raised with funny money that is really just markup applied to the trade-in value.

MasterNSXTech · 1 January 2017

GM_FFX said:
I'm sorry but this is just not true, the 3 NSX specialists I met in person were not knowledgeable about the car, they did receive special training at the factory but that wasn't enough. All three had absolutely no clue what was happening throughout the ordering and manufacturing process. Acura kept them in the dark and would constantly promise updates that never came. They didn't know how to use the online configurator and they honestly told me it was a gimmick, they are used to sell $30k sedans they just disnt understand what it means to sell a $200k car.
All they did while I was there was how much that cabinet cost and how Acura forced them to buy it.

Let's be honest. Car salesmen are not exactly rocket scientists. American Honda gave them the tools...they just don't know how to use them. There are very few real car nerds that memorize everything they can over a car working as car salesmen. Very few have the passion to give it their all and make a career of it because it's just a job they took because real estate wasn't working out or whatever led them to respond to that "no experience necessary" employment listing. Sorry you had bad luck and got nothing but morons in your process. Believe it or not, there are some people out there who wear the "NSX Specialist" lapel pin that know more about the car than you could possibly imagine.

GM_FFX said:
All I keep hearing was them complaining on how Acura forced them to buy the cabinet and the special tools, how Acura would not provide proper information and updates. They told me I would go see my future car being assembled. They told me cars were being manufactured for customers only (no dealer order), they told me they would tell me in advance when the car was complete and the delivery date.
I got a call on a Saturday morning that the car would be there in 20 minutes. Part of the deal was that I would be there when the truck showed up. When asked the vice president why they didn't notify me in time the answer was "do you know how many car I get delivered at my dealership? I can't keep track
Of all".

Again this is a case of your NSX Specialist dropping the ball. The way it works is that the driver from Pilot Transport will call the contact at the dealer (most likely the highest ranking NSX Specialist such as the GM, Service Manager, or Sales Manager) to alert them that their car is being delivered the next day and at what time. That contact then coordinates with the rest of the NSX team at the store to make sure everyone and everything is in place. If the technician has the day off, then they either beg him to come in or the car sits until he can to PDI the car. This would also be the time that the client is called (if it's a sold car) to inform them when the car will be coming in and when, and where, they'd like delivery to happen.

GM_FFX · 1 January 2017

MasterNSXTech said:
Let's be honest. Car salesmen are not exactly rocket scientists. American Honda gave them the tools...they just don't know how to use them. There are very few real car nerds that memorize everything they can over a car working as car salesmen. Very few have the passion to give it their all and make a career of it because it's just a job they took because real estate wasn't working out or whatever led them to respond to that "no experience necessary" employment listing. Sorry you had bad luck and got nothing but morons in your process. Believe it or not, there are some people out there who wear the "NSX Specialist" lapel pin that know more about the car than you could possibly imagine.

Again this is a case of your NSX Specialist dropping the ball. The way it works is that the driver from Pilot Transport will call the contact at the dealer (most likely the highest ranking NSX Specialist such as the GM, Service Manager, or Sales Manager) to alert them that their car is being delivered the next day and at what time. That contact then coordinates with the rest of the NSX team at the store to make sure everyone and everything is in place. If the technician has the day off, then they either beg him to come in or the car sits until he can to PDI the car. This would also be the time that the client is called (if it's a sold car) to inform them when the car will be coming in and when, and where, they'd like delivery to happen.

The sales manager told me he got a call when the car was already almost there, he then asked the sales man to contact me. I spoke to the buyer of their first allocation (other location thought) and his NSX would call him stating car was ready and about to be pulled on the truck. Then the next day he would call him back to cancel. He did it a few times until the customer told him not to bother him anymore.

Regarding the factory visit and taking delivery and driving the car on their track my NSX specialist told me this before signing the paperwork. I then received a questionnaire by email asking how much I would pay to visit the factory etc etc... did you guys get it too?

chrisn · 1 January 2017

MasterNSXTech said:
the driver from Pilot Transport will call the contact at the dealer (most likely the highest ranking NSX Specialist such as the GM, Service Manager, or Sales Manager) to alert them that their car is being delivered the next day and at what time. That contact then coordinates with the rest of the NSX team at the store to make sure everyone and everything is in place. If the technician has the day off, then they either beg him to come in or the car sits until he can to PDI the car. This would also be the time that the client is called (if it's a sold car) to inform them when the car will be coming in and when, and where, they'd like delivery to happen.

This is exactly how my delivery happened, and I was very happy with it.

In terms of product knowledge, my salesman and sales manager were fine. Did I know more about the car? Yes. Of course. Obsessive early adopters *ALWAYS* know more, in terms of percentage of public data they have in their brains. Where dealer can help is to chase down questions from Honda, and they did this for me.

The NSX is a one-off, oddball care from perspective of Acura dealer. Similar (or more extreme) than situation when GT-R landed at Nissan dealership and parked next to their Muranos.

I think the solution is to centralize outbound customer communication via Acura HQ for this car. Customers would get regular email updates from HQ and your dealer would be "Level One" support, with expectation that many questions would ned to get escalated, especially during first couple of cars delivered by each dealer.

powdbyrice · 1 January 2017

MasterNSXTech said:
Let's be honest. Car salesmen are not exactly rocket scientists. American Honda gave them the tools...they just don't know how to use them. There are very few real car nerds that memorize everything they can over a car working as car salesmen. Very few have the passion to give it their all and make a career of it because it's just a job they took because real estate wasn't working out or whatever led them to respond to that "no experience necessary" employment listing. Sorry you had bad luck and got nothing but morons in your process. Believe it or not, there are some people out there who wear the "NSX Specialist" lapel pin that know more about the car than you could possibly imagine.

AFAIK, some stores sent a desk manager instead of an temporary salesman.

due to our volume, our store has 2 NSX specialists. both of us are here for the long haul, not just a temporary stop over until the next big thing comes along.

MasterNSXTech · 1 January 2017

powdbyrice said:
AFAIK, some stores sent a desk manager instead of an temporary salesman.

due to our volume, our store has 2 NSX specialists. both of us are here for the long haul, not just a temporary stop over until the next big thing comes along.

And some stores just as big as yours, have already turned over a key NSX Specialist. Be it in sales or service. They took their lapel pin and leveraged it for more money for the extra responsibilities and if they didn't get it they went to another dealer who's was all too happy to take them. A little too much of having no all your eggs in one basket.

I personally hate the whole NSX Specialist only approach to customer contact or even touching the car. I'm sure every dealership has dedicated people for moving cars around, washing cars, and so on. A master technician has way better stuff to do than washing a car, but that's exactly what American Honda wants them to do anytime a NSX comes in for service. Before and after any work is done to the vehicle. Would have been somewhat hilarious, though understandable, to see that a store sent one of their detailers to Ohio back in May just so they'd be allowed to touch the car to wash it.

Tom239 · 1 January 2017

chrisn said:
MasterNSXTech said:

Again this is a case of your NSX Specialist dropping the ball. The way it works is that the driver from Pilot Transport will call the contact at the dealer (most likely the highest ranking NSX Specialist such as the GM, Service Manager, or Sales Manager) to alert them that their car is being delivered the next day and at what time. That contact then coordinates with the rest of the NSX team at the store to make sure everyone and everything is in place. If the technician has the day off, then they either beg him to come in or the car sits until he can to PDI the car. This would also be the time that the client is called (if it's a sold car) to inform them when the car will be coming in and when, and where, they'd like delivery to happen.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how my delivery happened, and I was very happy with it.

Except that the dealer failed to PDI your car. They gave you the car with the tires way overinflated like they come from the factory, which the same dealer did to me when I bought a new Acura there in 1997.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's a form the tech signs saying that the full PDI was done. The salesman definitely told me verbally that an inspection had been done. Inadvertent mistake (accidentally skipping one of the most basic, safety-related points in an inspection) or a flat-out lie about whether they really inspect the cars--what's your guess.

MasterNSXTech · 1 January 2017

Tom239 said:
Except that the dealer failed to PDI your car. They gave you the car with the tires way overinflated like they come from the factory, which the same dealer did to me when I bought a new Acura there in 1997.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's a form the tech signs saying that the full PDI was done. The salesman definitely told me verbally that an inspection had been done. Inadvertent mistake (accidentally skipping one of the most basic, safety-related points in an inspection) or a flat-out lie about whether they really inspect the cars--what's your guess.

True that is another ball that was dropped. In all fairness, many dealership technicians are instructed by their managers not to set tire pressures on PDI and just leave them at the 40+ they come from the factory with. The thinking there is that they don't know if the car will sit for 6 days, 6 weeks, or even 6 months before it sells. Better to avoid flat spots on tires and/or the "low tire pressure" warning on the dash when a customer does come to test drive it. Then it brings up all the doubts. "Is something wrong with it? Why is it shaking? Just how old is this one?"

That said. No matter what, tire pressures should be checked at delivery.

Tom239 · 1 January 2017

MasterNSXTech said:
True that is another ball that was dropped. In all fairness, many dealership technicians are instructed by their managers not to set tire pressures on PDI and just leave them at the 40+ they come from the factory with. The thinking there is that they don't know if the car will sit for 6 days, 6 weeks, or even 6 months before it sells. Better to avoid flat spots on tires and/or the "low tire pressure" warning on the dash when a customer does come to test drive it. Then it brings up all the doubts. "Is something wrong with it? Why is it shaking? Just how old is this one?"

That said. No matter what, tire pressures should be checked at delivery.

Good point, thanks for bringing that up.

While I have you on the phone here, so to speak, what's your policy about alignment in a PDI? Does your dealership let new cars out the door with the steering wheel not level? I ask because on the one new Acura I bought, the steering wheel was about 20 degrees rotated from horizontal (when driving straight on a flat, uncrowned road). It's something every good tech has gotten right for me as part of an alignment job and I was a little disappointed that an Acura was sold brand new with this detail noticeably off.

chrisn · 2 January 2017

The PSI thing was simple human mistake having nothing to do with the NSX. Not confidence inspiring, but ultimately not a biggie.

MasterNSXTech · 2 January 2017

Tom239 said:
Good point, thanks for bringing that up.

While I have you on the phone here, so to speak, what's your policy about alignment in a PDI? Does your dealership let new cars out the door with the steering wheel not level? I ask because on the one new Acura I bought, the steering wheel was about 20 degrees rotated from horizontal (when driving straight on a flat, uncrowned road). It's something every good tech has gotten right for me as part of an alignment job and I was a little disappointed that an Acura was sold brand new with this detail noticeably off.

Part of the PDI is a test drive. Most combine it with going to the gas station to fill the tank. But here's the thing...other than the NSX and maybe something special like the RLX hybrid or the first car of a new model, a PDI is probably getting done by the lower level technicians. And as much as I tell them not to, I'm sure they're too busy listening to the stereo, snapchatting, or whatever else kids do these days while doing attempting to drive.

MasterNSXTech · 2 January 2017

chrisn said:
The PSI thing was simple human mistake having nothing to do with the NSX. Not confidence inspiring, but ultimately not a biggie.

First NSX in my store, I set the pressures exactly to what it said thinking it would deliver immediately. Nope. Had to be topped up again before we eventually delivered it a couple months later. Second NSX? I left the tires at 40. I hope someone on our team remembers to set it properly when it does eventually sell.

JD Cross · 2 January 2017

I'll probably be seen as a troll here but I don't understand the OP's post.

If your post is to complain about treatment at dealerships I can understand that.
We've all had good and bad experiences at dealerships

If you really want a car sometimes you have to put up with less than ideal treatment at a dealership.
If you have to have a 488 don't expect the red carpet at the Ferrari dealership.
You put up with whatever is dished out and eventually you'll get one.
If that puts you off a 488 then I don't think you really want a 488.

Same with an NSX
I don't think the OP really wanted an NSX.
If he did he'd either have one in his garage or a steel brake optioned one on order.
There's 175+ out there for sale or a factory order at MSRP is available at many dealers.
A fumble by a dealer(s) is just a step in the process no?
Find another dealer and buy from them.
You're buying a car not the dealership.

The OP bought an Audi, fair enough.
But to blame the decision not to buy an NSX on a dealership(s) in my mind is not the whole story.

Bricks and Bio · 2 January 2017

Some of the situation may have been related to leasing terms (my sense is the OP prefers to lease).

The Audi folks were able to provide a favorable lease relative to those available on an NSX at this point.

JD Cross · 2 January 2017

Bricks and Bio said:
Some of the situation may have been related to leasing terms (my sense is the OP prefers to lease).
The Audi folks were able to provide a favorable lease relative to those available on an NSX at this point.

Then the OP should then have posted that Acura doesn't offer a competitive lease no?

If you want an NSX you'll buy one from someone, somewhere period.
The OP has posted in other threads concerned about NSX value/pricing so he's not a committed buyer but rather a cross shopper.

Decided the R8 was the car for him.
Great. Others have done the same.
But the OP said he didn't buy an NSX solely because of dealer treatment, which isn't the whole story.

Esprit9 · 2 January 2017

JD Cross said:
The OP bought an Audi, fair enough.
But to blame the decision not to buy an NSX on a dealership(s) in my mind is not the whole story.

I 100% wanted the gen2 NSX, in nord grey, saddle interior and Tech/Sirius for $163,300. I went to LA Auto Show to see it in Valencia Red, sat in several of them (or just observed from a foot away) and see them in different colors. From that point things went south in several areas:
1) Some dealership treatment and awkward behavior,etc.. wasn't all that great (Other Acura dealerships were great)
2) Horrible residual and money factor
3) No ability to test drive the car AT ALL

I don't blame the decision to not buy the NSX on the dealerships... I guess I blame the Audi dealership that went above and beyond to make me feel special and to allow me to test drive a new R8, have an amazing residual and money factor and allow me to save over forty thousand dollars for the same priced car, etc..

My first and only choice was the NSX and I've always liked and respected the R8 from afar.. I can't explain it but driving the R8, along with my wife sitting in it....having the salesman ask my wife to start the R8, and have her hear the exhaust note was a major experience for her. Those little things count. I went home and all we could talk about was the R8. We fell in love with it and the NSX just wasn't so special anymore. Trust me... I've been waiting on the new NSX for a long time and never thought of another car.

What is going on with these dealerships...Honda lost a real customer

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