[MENTION=5347]RSO 34[/MENTION], Not sure what modern cars you have tracked recently but I think you might be surprised at how permissive these systems are in situations that you describe. No system is perfect, of course, and cars can indeed intervene in ways that are startling, but the nannies have gotten A LOT smarter in last 5-10 years. For example, in "Track Mode" most cars don't care about wheel spin unless your yaw rate exceeds a pretty lax limit. Power sliding around corners is no problem as long as you don't hang the tail out too far (for example).
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New NSX is not selling? it's overpriced?
- Thread starter topman2005
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I'm a dinosaur - Formula Dodge, F2000 and '96 NSX since 1998. I don't need "track mode" to have some fun - just make sure I have 3 pedals, something to shift and the need for a little heel and toe'ing............
p.s. although there have been "unconfirmed" sightings at NSXPOs of rental cars (including a 15 passenger van) on tracks across the country.........
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To bring this back to the thread topic, if those are your criteria, then you would for sure find the NSX overpriced and underwhelming on the track.
If Gen 1 guys were expecting the Gen 2 car to be a track toy, I can understand the disappointment. I'm sure a sharpened, performance-oriented variant is in the works, but it will never be beat a Miata or Cayman (or Gen 1 NSX) in the eyes of people like you (which is fine-- not a criticism). It's intended to compete with the 911 Turbo and R8 more than the GT4 or even the 458 (itself not really a track focused car).
If Gen 1 guys were expecting the Gen 2 car to be a track toy, I can understand the disappointment. I'm sure a sharpened, performance-oriented variant is in the works, but it will never be beat a Miata or Cayman (or Gen 1 NSX) in the eyes of people like you (which is fine-- not a criticism). It's intended to compete with the 911 Turbo and R8 more than the GT4 or even the 458 (itself not really a track focused car).
My NSX is a daily driver (in season) and a track rat. It is extremely underpowered (aka it's still stock) compared to the cars in my usual run group (open track/instructors) but I enjoy it on the track and on the street. I can have fun with anything on a track. Yes, I prefer a good old fashioned manual tranny and would always love more hp but I am happy to drive 534 miles round trip to Watkins Glen, do 100 laps on the track (350 miles), hose off the track grit and then drive it to work the next day.
If the new one can do that then it is "perfect" as far as I am concerned.
If the new one can do that then it is "perfect" as far as I am concerned.
I think half the problem is it's been touted as a sports car when in this configuration its more of a GT car with sports performance hence a lot of the disappointment and this time round there are so many other cars to choose from so the decision is harder as to where to spend your money, there are soooo many choices now.
My issue with it since I am in the market for one next year (we cant get them here until then) is that I probably want a newer version of what I have hence me liking the Macca more also when looking at videos like this sort of backs my feelings up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fijSe_nUy4
and that's the bloody 540 beating it not the 570
I still think lighter is better and the fact that it cant beat a GTR which has been around for a decade nearly with all that tech makes me go yeah nah
I like the new car but I don't love it maybe I will love the sportier version without all the tech but still some boosted electric power as I like that aspect but without the extra weight, I also think Honda/Acura screwed up look at the Porsche range and the McLaren range they have basic models and work their way up so maybe they should've started with a basic NSX (911, 540) and the top of the line one came with all this hybrid tech later and with a few variants in the between
My issue with it since I am in the market for one next year (we cant get them here until then) is that I probably want a newer version of what I have hence me liking the Macca more also when looking at videos like this sort of backs my feelings up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fijSe_nUy4
and that's the bloody 540 beating it not the 570
I still think lighter is better and the fact that it cant beat a GTR which has been around for a decade nearly with all that tech makes me go yeah nah
I like the new car but I don't love it maybe I will love the sportier version without all the tech but still some boosted electric power as I like that aspect but without the extra weight, I also think Honda/Acura screwed up look at the Porsche range and the McLaren range they have basic models and work their way up so maybe they should've started with a basic NSX (911, 540) and the top of the line one came with all this hybrid tech later and with a few variants in the between
I assure you that the car is "perfect" per this definition. Sounds like you're all settled on it. I suggest the Blue.
Funny you should say that. I had access to the config system before the buying public and spec'ed a blue one....
fastaussie
Suspended
you are correct, in that instance the brakes will save you.
i have driven the McLaren 570S several times on track, and it is exhilarating. better than my previous favourite, the 458. i have not yet driven the NSX. i take my opinion on that car from my mates who have driven it, and who write the reviews the rest of you read and watch. i do trust their judgment enough to form my own opinion based on theirs, and also because i know the way Honda does things.
from what i understand, the torque vectoring system isn't nearly as advantageous as you might think, if at all?
good for you mate. most i've seen should definitely leave it on... :biggrin:
fastaussie
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yep, i can dig all of those points.
McLaren all the way, they are doing so much with so little. Honda seems to be doing so little with so much...
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Brakes can only do so much for you. Plus, while most modern stability control systems do a little bit of poor man's torque vectoring, the NSX can still do real torque vectoring even if you're totally off the throttle.
It could be argued the the NSX may have been better off without all the extra hybrid stuff. The benefit received from AWD, torque vectoring, filling in power under the curve of the engine, and so on in terms of ultimate performance (lap times) gets offset quite a bit from all the extra weight it adds. And I think a pro driver could argue that sticking point. Because they have the luxury of constantly driving cars (usually not their own but one someone else is paying them to see just how fast it is) at the limit. But the average driver who maybe does one or two track events a year, drove the car to and from the track, and realizes that his insurance won't cover him should he put it in a guardrail...probably going to hold back from really going for it just a little.
The NSX with the torque vectoring that you think isn't much of an advantage, really does do a lot. A pro driver probably wouldn't get too much out of it. But to the average driver, it does an awful lot to bridge a skill gap. Case in point...when I did the training in Ohio for the car over half a year ago, I got to take a couple laps on Honda's test track. A track I really was not familiar with at all. Yet I was able to hustle around that track almost as fast as when I rode right seat with a pro driver. A pro who had been at that track all week and probably had hundreds of laps there by then with the NSX.
I get all that but why don't we like it enough to buy it with lines out the door? like other brands, I am not bagging it's performance it is quick.
Should they not have started with the base TT V6 or even an NA (affordable/value for money in it's class) version that would've been quick and then said but wait there's more coming in our performance version and then our hybrid version with all the bells and whistles and all priced accordingly for each model.
Maybe there is a market for 800 cars a year for the NSX but they would be different variants of the NSX for different wants. And the hybrid version would make up a 3rd of all sales. Take a leaf out of this companies successful sales book.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/
Porsche's line up is excessive but there is a model for each buyer and his wife and the same goes for other marques.
I actually cant figure out why I don't want one since I love the brand just some other cars appeal to me more at present I suppose, to the current owners out there now I think your cars are nice and I would like to have a play in one eventually and good on you for getting one but.....
If there is 525 cars delivered out there and 200 are sitting around and its only 2/3rds through the first year of sales that sort of backs up my theory unless my figures are incorrect.
Should they not have started with the base TT V6 or even an NA (affordable/value for money in it's class) version that would've been quick and then said but wait there's more coming in our performance version and then our hybrid version with all the bells and whistles and all priced accordingly for each model.
Maybe there is a market for 800 cars a year for the NSX but they would be different variants of the NSX for different wants. And the hybrid version would make up a 3rd of all sales. Take a leaf out of this companies successful sales book.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/
Porsche's line up is excessive but there is a model for each buyer and his wife and the same goes for other marques.
I actually cant figure out why I don't want one since I love the brand just some other cars appeal to me more at present I suppose, to the current owners out there now I think your cars are nice and I would like to have a play in one eventually and good on you for getting one but.....
If there is 525 cars delivered out there and 200 are sitting around and its only 2/3rds through the first year of sales that sort of backs up my theory unless my figures are incorrect.
fastaussie
Suspended
i'm not understanding how two miniscule electric motors and torque vectoring do anything at all when the driver is "totally off the throttle"?
and everything you mentioned concerning the benefits of the NSX's drivetrain can be said of any AWD car (R8, Huracan, 911 Turbo, etc.). all of which have outrun the NSX with much less fanfare...
i reckon your figures are pretty close. Honda farked it big time...
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Scammy,
porsche has been cultivating the 911 brand in a time period spanning 7 decades and has an amazing diverse line up
the gen 2 NSX is more of a showcase for Acura in their general brand development, than a core revenue generator
a key element to Acura's branding is Sh-AWD, so the gen 2 NSX absolutely has to have it
i believe Acura will be moving more into hybrids so including electric motors in the NSX is a part of that brand development
porsche has been cultivating the 911 brand in a time period spanning 7 decades and has an amazing diverse line up
the gen 2 NSX is more of a showcase for Acura in their general brand development, than a core revenue generator
a key element to Acura's branding is Sh-AWD, so the gen 2 NSX absolutely has to have it
i believe Acura will be moving more into hybrids so including electric motors in the NSX is a part of that brand development
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So let let me get this straight. After making a statement like this....
you come back with this?
Would it be more accurate to say that maybe you don't know how Honda does things nearly as much as you or your buddies think they do? The benefits of the NSX's drivetrain can not be said of just any AWD vehicle. It even can't be said of most of Honda's other AWD vehicles.
In order for torque vectoring to work on all those other vehicles, the differential needs torque going into it by way of a propeller shaft from the transmission/transfer case before it can split it 50/50, 90/10, or whatever the system determines between the left and right side.
The NSX's front differential has no propeller shaft going into it as it uses two independent electric motors. This means the front differential does not rely on torque being fed into it which would normally be provided by the gasoline engine under some degree of throttle input.
So even with your foot off the gas going into a turn, the front differential can provide torque vectoring. The electric motors can try to overdrive the outside wheel and back torque the inside wheel and get an otherwise under steering front end to sum back on to your intended rate of yaw.
Unless the Porsche 918 or the Tesla AWD does this too (and who really cares if the Tesla does or not since nobody is really tracking one of those), the NSX is really quite unique in this ability.
you come back with this?
i'm not understanding how two miniscule electric motors and torque vectoring do anything at all when the driver is "totally off the throttle"?
and everything you mentioned concerning the benefits of the NSX's drivetrain can be said of any AWD car (R8, Huracan, 911 Turbo, etc.). all of which have outrun the NSX with much less fanfare...
Would it be more accurate to say that maybe you don't know how Honda does things nearly as much as you or your buddies think they do? The benefits of the NSX's drivetrain can not be said of just any AWD vehicle. It even can't be said of most of Honda's other AWD vehicles.
In order for torque vectoring to work on all those other vehicles, the differential needs torque going into it by way of a propeller shaft from the transmission/transfer case before it can split it 50/50, 90/10, or whatever the system determines between the left and right side.
The NSX's front differential has no propeller shaft going into it as it uses two independent electric motors. This means the front differential does not rely on torque being fed into it which would normally be provided by the gasoline engine under some degree of throttle input.
So even with your foot off the gas going into a turn, the front differential can provide torque vectoring. The electric motors can try to overdrive the outside wheel and back torque the inside wheel and get an otherwise under steering front end to sum back on to your intended rate of yaw.
Unless the Porsche 918 or the Tesla AWD does this too (and who really cares if the Tesla does or not since nobody is really tracking one of those), the NSX is really quite unique in this ability.
Brakes can provide torque vectoring, and are especially suited to off-throttle conditions.
You mean braking can provide negative torque vectoring?
NSX can provide positive torque to the outside wheel and negative torque to the inside wheel at the same time in off throttle situations.
Not sure if that is possible with other more traditional four wheel drive systems.
If you go into a corner too fast, torque vectoring can't overcome physics to save you.
Why is it not selling? Well I am not sure that it isn't selling but it does appear to not be killing it sales-wise.
If this is true, I think that the reason is multifaceted. It does not seem to be one thing. There seem to be a bunch of little details that are not quite fine tuned. And the looks and performance for the price are not creating enough passion to overcome these niggles.
I do not think the hybrid system or the lack of a manual trans is the issue...not at all.
Hybrid is a bonus - no question about it.
Anybody have a sense of what percentage of 911s are sold with 3 pedals?
I think as a non-performance brand, they had to hit it out of the park and a triple is great but just not quite enough.
Would it be flying of the shelves if it went 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, had a front end like the Huracan, 488 or Z06 and started at $150K, maxed at $190K?
I think so.
Other than that, it would have to have every little detail perfected.
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If this is true, I think that the reason is multifaceted. It does not seem to be one thing. There seem to be a bunch of little details that are not quite fine tuned. And the looks and performance for the price are not creating enough passion to overcome these niggles.
I do not think the hybrid system or the lack of a manual trans is the issue...not at all.
Hybrid is a bonus - no question about it.
Anybody have a sense of what percentage of 911s are sold with 3 pedals?
I think as a non-performance brand, they had to hit it out of the park and a triple is great but just not quite enough.
Would it be flying of the shelves if it went 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, had a front end like the Huracan, 488 or Z06 and started at $150K, maxed at $190K?
I think so.
Other than that, it would have to have every little detail perfected.
.02
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So let me ask you too then. Driven a new NSX on the track?
I guess you are shooting from the hip and not actually reading and thinking things through before replying to posts.
Did you actually read stuntman's comment?
stuntman said:
For example if you go into T11 at Laguna at 50mph on a NSX2.0 where usually you can go into at 35-38 mph, will torque vectoring save you? (FWIW: I am just throwing numbers to make a point the turn in entry speed into T11 is usually closer to 45 mph)
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I get that which is partly my point should they not have cultivated a following and expand from there, we are all going to be driving hybrids of some sort eventually.
I am not really picking on the new NSX, as much as anyone I am trying to figure out why it hasn't captured my attention and therefore more sales and my wanting to part with some cash for it I actually want to like it enough but don't seem to.
Which gets back to my comment maybe I would want one if they had a model that suited my tastes like the 911 range and for those guys that want Hybrid get one of that type
The nsx may very well be priced accordingly for all of the fancy tech that it has. The problem is, nobody wants it. I don't, not for that price. Gas prices are low. People want big powerful engines again. Just history repeating itself all over again.
I do think if all those fancy gizmos actually beat some of the competition in that "specific price range" it would be a different story. But it is not. Simple and plain. But one can always argue that a loosing team played well.
I do think if all those fancy gizmos actually beat some of the competition in that "specific price range" it would be a different story. But it is not. Simple and plain. But one can always argue that a loosing team played well.
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Yeah I know what too fast means. I'm not saying the system is some guardian angel miracle worker. If you go into a turn that could be taken neutral at 50mph but you spaced out at the brake zone and you're carrying 80? Yeah into the gravel you go. But with the NSX, let's assume you could turn the torque vectoring off and you could carry 50 through without any understeer. Now try to hold 55 through the turn...yeah you lose the battle of mechanical grip and it starts under steering. Now try it as it is built, with torque vectoring. 55 through the turn and holding the line is now a reality.
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