991 Turbo, Nissan GTR and NSX

fastaussie said:

actually i don't, but that is what you choose to take out of everything i replied to regarding your questions?
i was speaking of one or two, not the vast majority. i thought that was evident with "some posters"? i did not say "all you idiotic and ignorant bastards".
you're extremely presumptuous, and that is your prerogative, but you're choosing to ignore the information i just gave you, of which you asked for...

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When you make a statement in a public forum about staggeringly ignorant posters who's to know who it applies to?
We can only read your words not what's in your mind.
How a man chooses to answer a question is equally important to the answers provided.
It's a measure of the man.
If you haven't learned that yet in life hopefully one day you will.

JD Cross said:

When you make a statement in a public forum about staggeringly ignorant posters who's to know who it applies to?

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then be less presumptuous, that's my advice. if you haven't made a staggeringly ignorant reply specifically to me, assume that it isn't you?

again, i answered your technical and personal questions, and yet you are still carrying this on...

N Spec said:

The better term to use is Honda is being "safe" or conservative with their performance to allow room for progression and reliability. 2000 launch RPM is very light on the drivetrain versus 6000 or 4000 rpm launches. I'd love to see a long term review of all of these cars. The hybrid factor would be the surprise element of course as battery life is questionable still...

There is nothing new in this review. The ICE from the NSX makes only 500 peak hp. The emotors shut off at ~120 mph. So of course the 0-100 and 0-150 times are going to be off when going against the higher peak hp cars with much higher launch RPMS. We all knew or should know of this aspect ever since the actual numbers were quoted. It's already been proven that the NSX is quicker off the line than the GTR when not performing launch control at all - this is better real world numbers.

The biggest factor as always is excess weight for the new NSX. They need to find way to shave 100 or even 200 kg off of the chassis. No easy feat I imagine, but every kg is going to count if they can manage it.

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you're right in some regards, but neither the NSX or GTR is faster with launch control turned off, versus turned on. so that point is moot because each is at its best in launch mode.

again, spinning the NSX higher than it's torque peak offers no benefit. torque accelerates a vehicle from a stop, not horsepower. a certain amount of wheelspin is desired to keep the engine on the boil, but too much smokes tires and burns time.

Nissan did a better job with the programming and balance of available grip, weight transfer, gearing, maximum thrust, etc. that's all...

ReneNSX said:

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-turbo/974992-drivetribe-991-2-turbo-vs-honda-nsx-vs-nissan-gt-r.html

Not that good!

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At this point it seems pretty clear that comparing the 2nd Gen NSX vs traditional non-hybrid high performance sports cars isn't going to produce the results that some folks were expecting when track performance is taken into consideration.

Perhaps the real benchmark will be when the 2nd Gen NSX is compared with the next generation Porsche 992 which should have a hybrid version somewhere in it's lineup, same goes for the R36 from Nissan which might also come in a hybrid version as well.

Regardless of the manufacturer n question, they will all run into similar issues when integrating a complex drivetrain and trying to tune it for a high performance application.

Porsche had a heads up on the High Performance Hybrid Platform for road based vehicles because they went out and started to race a GT3 R Hybrid back in 2010.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/porsche-911-gt3-r-hybrid-2-0-first-drive-review/

They learned quite a bit from that experience and applied some of that knowledge to the 918 program, the knowledge from those programs has probably trickled down to the 992 hybrid program.

There are many of us who wanted the NSX to be something else that was a bit more track oriented from the get go, less complexity, predictable at the limit, more traditional in regards to the amount of feedback that it provides, non-hybrid, etc, etc.

The NSX2.0 doesn't have those qualities, but that doesn't automatically imply that it is not a good high performance sports car for the road.

Regardless of the brand and model of vehicle, drive whatever makes you happy.

fastaussie said:

then be less presumptuous, that's my advice. if you haven't made a staggeringly ignorant reply specifically to me, assume that it isn't you?
again, i answered your technical and personal questions, and yet you are still carrying this on...

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I'm carrying on because it's apparent you don't get it.
You're the one who presumes a post is staggering ignorant, not me nor anyone else.

I've posted some dumb comments and realized an apology was needed and have done so.
Are you man enough to apologize to those you may have offended whether you think you did or not?
It's a measure of the man.

As I've mentioned to you before you could add value to this forum if you could do it without feeling the need to demean people.
However if you can't find a way to communicate without running the risk of insulting other forum members it's time to grace another forum.

2slow2speed said:

At this point it seems pretty clear that comparing the 2nd Gen NSX vs traditional non-hybrid high performance sports cars isn't going to produce the results that some folks were expecting when track performance is taken into consideration.

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Your whole post was well thought out and meaningful.
I learned some things.
Thanks for adding value.

JD Cross said:

I'm carrying on because it's apparent you don't get it.
You're the one who presumes a post is staggering ignorant, not me nor anyone else.

I've posted some dumb comments and realized an apology was needed and have done so.
Are you man enough to apologize to those you may have offended whether you think you did or not?
It's a measure of the man.

As I've mentioned to you before you could add value to this forum if you could do it without feeling the need to demean people.
However if you can't find a way to communicate without running the risk of insulting other forum members it's time to grace another forum.

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you don't seem to get it mate. i have demeaned no one personally. my comment was not pointed at anyone specifically, no name, reply, or post was mentioned nor singled out. yet when i have defended others being demeaned by certain individuals, those individuals have demeaned me. now personally, i don't care less. no one is hurting my feelings because the NSX is not the king of Supercars.

if someone is personally offended, please let me know and i'll be happy to apologise. but don't pretend to be so self righteous when you yourself just took a dig at me with your last comment, "thanks for adding value".

i've just added a lot of value in my previous responses, to which you have chosen to ignore several times now and carry on with this silliness. so that is all, there will be nothing further from me regarding anything other than a 911 Turbo, GTR, and NSX...

Oh brother he we go again..... I think Honda is sandbagging in how much power is going to the electronic motors. There is more there. The chassis feels like it could handle much more power as well is what I was trying to describe earlier. Plus, I thought the car was very confidence inspiring to drive hard for an unskilled spirited driver such as myself. But I do get that it all comes down to bragging rights and I certainly wished for a bit more with the nsx. But after driving one I wasn't so disappointed. It is a totally different animal from what the gen 1 was and is. It is so close to the gtr's performance I only wish that it was closer in price. It is not a slug though and I'm glad I drove one.

Arguments for why Honda is "holding back" and not "making the fastest car they can".

1. Firms have different engineering philosophies and view on reliability and strategies for dealing with the inherent uncertainty of new technologies / components.

2. I suspect that Honda, and perhaps all Japanese brands, tend to be more conservative than European brands.

3. In the Porsche and BMW worlds (and I believe Audi too), all turbo charged cars can be safely and cheaply reprogrammed to add ~20% more power on a software-only basis.

4. EV cars are, to an even greater extent, characterized by "software-defined" power output, although with MUCH more critical thermal failure modes-- leading to a high degree of thermal conservatism (along with battery longevity concerns). Tesla has shown clearly that software refinements can enhance "burst" performance by carefully approaching safety limits.

5. Often, future variants of cars (EV and ICE) increase power output NOT because of changed hardware, but because reliability/testing data reveals than they CAN do so. Plus, they need to plan in advance for power bumps as they cannot afford to develop an all-new powertrain every year.

6. Since even LESS conservative brands ALWAYS leave power on the table and since BOTH turbo systems and EV systems can be tuned via software, it is highly likely than Honda is sandbagging.

7. QED

Further empirical observations/arguments:

While pushing hard on the racetrack in 100 degree heat, the car never gets even close to overheating. Very impressive thermal management. And, in Track mode, the EV battery NEVER gets below 50-60% full, even at the end of long straights. My motto: if it ain't broke, it can be improved. There is a lot of safety margin in this car. Acura says "Track Mode" is tuned for "consistent lapping in all conditions." I get that and appreciate that. But can I please have "Track+ Mode" where the car just goes balls out, even though it might have to fall back in a more conservative mode periodically in extreme circumstances?

Chris do the brakes maintain safe operating temps on those same track days? we had some brake temp warning lights going on at sebring.

docjohn said:

Chris do the brakes maintain safe operating temps on those same track days? we had some brake temp warning lights going on at sebring.

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In general, yes. But I got one "reduced braking" warning light at end of second day. After backing off for half a lap, all was well--- but wear sensors triggered not long after. My conclusion, therefore, was that you get more rotor-->pad-->caliper heat transfer when pads get thin and this can overheat them under hard use. I've experienced "brake fade" in other cars before in extreme circumstances, so I don't know if the NSX brakes are more fragile (although they have other problems). i just think the brake-by-wire system is conservative about warning that "brake fade is coming, so back off."

Edit: Just for balance and full disclosure, I think the car is a bit under-braked in the rear for track use. Perhaps needs a bigger rotor / swept area and/or better cooling air flow. It also could be that the brakes were engineered without reference to the additional load from all the active stability/traction management. I'm not sure which.

chrisn said:

Arguments for why Honda is "holding back" and not "making the fastest car they can".

1. Firms have different engineering philosophies and view on reliability and strategies for dealing with the inherent uncertainty of new technologies / components.

2. I suspect that Honda, and perhaps all Japanese brands, tend to be more conservative than European brands.

3. In the Porsche and BMW worlds (and I believe Audi too), all turbo charged cars can be safely and cheaply reprogrammed to add ~20% more power on a software-only basis.

4. EV cars are, to an even greater extent, characterized by "software-defined" power output, although with MUCH more critical thermal failure modes-- leading to a high degree of thermal conservatism (along with battery longevity concerns). Tesla has shown clearly that software refinements can enhance "burst" performance by carefully approaching safety limits.

5. Often, future variants of cars (EV and ICE) increase power output NOT because of changed hardware, but because reliability/testing data reveals than they CAN do so. Plus, they need to plan in advance for power bumps as they cannot afford to develop an all-new powertrain every year.

6. Since even LESS conservative brands ALWAYS leave power on the table and since BOTH turbo systems and EV systems can be tuned via software, it is highly likely than Honda is sandbagging.

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you really, honestly believe that Honda is sandbagging? intentionally not releasing the best NSX they can on the market? holding back, and letting their prize flagship model take a beating by the other brands and a 7-year old GTR in precious bragging rights?

that sounds like a terrible and suicidal corporate strategy to me...

Does anyone happen to know the replacement cost for the NSX's carbon ceramic rotors?

fastaussie said:

you don't seem to get it mate. i have demeaned no one personally. my comment was not pointed at anyone specifically, no name, reply, or post was mentioned nor singled out. yet when i have defended others being demeaned by certain individuals, those individuals have demeaned me. now personally, i don't care less. no one is hurting my feelings because the NSX is not the king of Supercars.
if someone is personally offended, please let me know and i'll be happy to apologise. but don't pretend to be so self righteous when you yourself just took a dig at me with your last comment, "thanks for adding value". i've just added a lot of value in my previous responses, to which you have chosen to ignore several times now and carry on with this silliness. so that is all, there will be nothing further from me regarding anything other than a 911 Turbo, GTR, and NSX...

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First of all you personally insulted one poster some weeks back and the moderator closed the thread and deleted your post.
Our moderators have the patience of Job and wisdom of Solomon but your post was over the line.
You could have apologized to the poster and moderator but instead did neither.

Secondly you insulted me with your comment about posting in "a safe room"
Look at my bio, it's got my name age address and so on.
What's your say? One name and nothing else
Who's hiding in a safe room?

Some of your comments have real information, but packaged in insulting rhetoric.
I have complimented posts that add value long before you came aboard
Will continue to do so and if you use adult phrases I would compliment them to.

I've belonged to Prime and it's predecessors for over 20 years.
I've learned more on this forum than any others.
I value it greatly.

The new NSX owners I've met have achieved more in their careers than I could ever dream of and many have a collection
of cars I could also only dream of.
Many of them have moved on because of the cheap shots and derogatory comments posted here.
I don't want this forum to die and I'm asking you to not cheapen it any more.

Clean up your act, send your apology or move on and post somewhere else.

i told you, i'm done. i've moved on, i suggest you do the same...

My style and motto for prime has always been to conduct conversation as if we were face to face in Lud's living room....

fastaussie said:

you really, honestly believe that Honda is sandbagging? intentionally not releasing the best NSX they can on the market? holding back, and letting their prize flagship model take a beating by the other brands and a 7-year old GTR in precious bragging rights?

that sounds like a terrible and suicidal corporate strategy to me...

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I think sandbagging is the wrong word. They're just conservative so where another manufacturer might leave a 10% engineering margin, Honda might leave 20%. The other side of that particular foible is that sometimes Honda looks at the competition and says, "We don't need to have as much power, acceleration, towing capacity, etc." They think they can get the job done with a far more modest solution, which is why the NSX was originally specced with a SOHC J-series. A truly insane idea which thankfully the NSX team pushed back on.

EDIT: Actually I think a better way to describe it is that Honda puts more value on reliability than others might in the same situation. Not that any of the current crop of supercars for around $200k have poor reliability, but I think Honda is more concerned about having an issue with customers cars (like the 991 GT3 engine failures) than their competitors might be.

fastaussie said:

you really, honestly believe that Honda is sandbagging? intentionally not releasing the best NSX they can on the market? holding back, and letting their prize flagship model take a beating by the other brands and a 7-year old GTR in precious bragging rights?

that sounds like a terrible and suicidal corporate strategy to me...

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Very obviously you have no understanding of Honda's corporate philosophy.

Again "conservative" is the word not deliberately sandbagging. The first gen NSX was never the world beater for anything either. Again, we all knew 500 peak hp is already behind in the supercar world today.

And FA, the front emotors operate on their own speed and rpms, so launching the rear engine at a higher RPM would be in peak torque conditions as the ICE doesn't make peak torque until a higher RPM as most high revving twin turbo engines. No Twin Turbo V6 makes peak torque at 2000 rpm.

fastaussie said:

i told you, i'm done. i've moved on, i suggest you do the same...

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Promise

N Spec said:

And FA, the front emotors operate on their own speed and rpms, so launching the rear engine at a higher RPM would be in peak torque conditions as the ICE doesn't make peak torque until a higher RPM as most high revving twin turbo engines. No Twin Turbo V6 makes peak torque at 2000 rpm.

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i get what you're saying, but the NSX's combined peak torque number is listed as 2,000 rpm. and i believe that number would be from Honda/Acura...

tucsonsx said:

Promise

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are you promising to not be a douche? that would be lovely, thank you. for the very last time, moving on... :wink:

sadlerau said:

Very obviously you have no understanding of Honda's corporate philosophy.

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i know you think Honda is probably hellbent on destroying themselves. i suppose i can't argue that assertion? they do seem to like the David versus Goliath approach, or the "do almost as much, with less" adage, as i like to call it...

G.Irish said:

I think sandbagging is the wrong word.

The other side of that particular foible is that sometimes Honda looks at the competition and says, "We don't need to have as much power, acceleration, towing capacity, etc." They think they can get the job done with a far more modest solution, which is why the NSX was originally specced with a SOHC J-series. A truly insane idea which thankfully the NSX team pushed back on.

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i agree, i think Honda's philosophy has always been that, as i said above. they always have a smaller displacement engine than their competitors. they always have less peak horsepower and torque numbers. they're always trying to figure out a way to do it differently than everyone else. their motorcycle philosophy is almost exactly the same, it's a bit perplexing really?

if you're gonna go all out in the Supercar market with all this new fancy tech in a legendary namesake, don't hold anything back, knock the damn ball well out of the park!

fastaussie said:

i told you, i'm done. i've moved on, i suggest you do the same...

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You owe me an apology.
Am waiting to see if you've got enough substance to do the right thing.
You've just insulted another member by calling him a douche.
Only little children fight back with derogatory comments like that.
Show some class and respect.
I'll move on when you've demonstrated you can be civil to and respectful of the Prime forums.

You're neither wanted nor needed on this forum.
Suggest you stick to Gen 1 forums or leave Prime

Sandbagging was a term I probably should not have used. Yes, conservative is more fitting when referencing the electric drivetrain. I know there is more there and it is just a matter of time before a few software upgrades could really change people's tune including my own. There isn't much more I can say about it other than it is beautiful, low, wide, heavy, very fast, comfortable and a Honda. I seriously do not see this car getting any worse though, just better from here on out.

JD Cross said:

You owe me an apology.
Am waiting to see if you've got enough substance to do the right thing.
You've just insulted another member by calling him a douche.
Only little children fight back with derogatory comments like that.
Show some class and respect.
I'll move on when you've demonstrated you can be civil to and respectful of the Prime forums.

You're neither wanted nor needed on this forum.
Suggest you stick to Gen 1 forums or leave Prime

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let me get this straight?

a handful of you keep throwing digs and snarky comments at me (going back a few weeks now when i was defending someone else several of you were being shitty with) because i'm commenting on a video on a forum to which you don't like what i have to say, and then you believe you deserve an apology when you get a snarky comment thrown back at you in return, the perpetrators who began this exchange to begin with?

first of all, check your self righteous selves.

and secondly, you won't be getting anything from me. except the suggestion of perhaps becoming a comedian... :biggrin:

Yeah, I get it FA. I am trying to keep from getting into cat fights here. I pretty much have said all I could already after driving one and not driving one. So I will just step away and continue to read about the car from other perspectives. Which seems very similar to the 2016 election. :biggrin:

Jinks said:

Sandbagging was a term I probably should not have used. Yes, conservative is more fitting when referencing the electric drivetrain. I know there is more there and it is just a matter of time before a few software upgrades could really change people's tune including my own. There isn't much more I can about it other than it is beautiful, low, wide, heavy, very fast, comfortable and a Honda. I seriously do not see this car getting any worse though, just better from here on out.

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there's always more to come from everything. every model, from every manufacturer is going to extract more performance from each model over time. the NSX will get faster. so will the next Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Merc, Lambo, Audi, etc.

the current discussion here, seems to be if Honda intentionally left anything on the table (at the time of the car's launch)? and why would they?

i'll simply suggest as i already have, and from the insider information i know from members of the NSX test team, that they made the car as good as they possibly could, in the time they had allotted, before it debuted...

p.s. we all know it was a bit of a rush job, and well behind schedule...

Jinks said:

Yeah, I get it FA. I am trying to keep from getting into cat fights here. I pretty much have said all I could already after driving one and not driving one. So I will just step away and continue to read about the car from other perspectives. Which seems very similar to the 2016 election. :biggrin:

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and you've been justified to say all you have. you don't need to tiptoe around. it's a free country despite what some people think, and this is a public forum. some individuals just need to act like grown ups...