Acura needs to wake up

liftcontrol said:

Never met him, have no desire to.
I have learned that you can tell a whole lot more about someone from what they do rather than what they say.

Your driving several thousand miles to hear him talk is interesting but does not alter the arguments either way.
If he is so knowledgeable about Porsche, I wish he had taken their approach of making cars lighter at heart; their steering feel and the breaking feel is also something he seems to have ignored

Just like, in his own words, he ignores the thoughts and comments of NSXprime members.

What Honda does with the NSX in the next 2-3 years will be very telling as to what THEY think of it.
If they are using their heads they will look at the pitiful sales figures from the very first year and see how cars that have been on the market for several years and have lost that new car wow factor are still soundly beating the brand new JayLeno-did-an-ad-for-it-so-it-must-be-good porker.

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If you had met him, like some of us have (including me numerous times and at length for the last several years) then your opinion (albeit still subject to dispute) might carry some weight. Without ever speaking to him, your opinion carries very little value.

The bottom line is that although this car is called an "NSX" it is nothing like our originals. It is not being marketed to original NSX owners/fan base and is meant for a different demographic. True, they benefit from our small but passionate community by calling it an NSX but there was no way they would read our comments here and build what we wanted since they wanted to try to be a leader with hybrid/etc. technology and we just wanted 500hp/V8/NA/RWD with some more carbon fiber and shiny bits and pieces - - - all for no more than $100k.

What "we" wanted and what they wanted to design are two completely different animals and they could never build a car to satisfy our community and still be designed with all the hybrid bling they wanted to show off. If they called it anything other than an "NSX" this forum would be less intent on bashing it.

RSO 34 said:

What "we" wanted and what they wanted to design are two completely different animals and they could never build a car to satisfy our community and still be designed with all the hybrid bling they wanted to show off. If they called it anything other than an "NSX" this forum would be less intent on bashing it.

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I cannot argue with this point.
Also, I do not have any problem with the price of the car, Honda could price it any way they wanted, they certainly have enough R&D to recoup.

And the car is what it is. I just hope, being a Honda lover, that they see the shortcomings of the current 1st Gen XYZ [] car and work on improving it diligently just as Porsche has done for decades with their 911.

If they feel that they have achieved what they think is all they need to offer, then they will repeat history and let the XYZ stagnate just as they allowed the original NSX to stagnate. I can only wonder what the NSX would have been like at this time were Honda to have continued to improve it over the years

The criticism of the XYZ can only improve it. If it is seen as baseless negative bashing, this criticism will never be the positive influence it can have on the future of this brave effort.

Ideally the concept of a "baby NSX" without the hybrid tech and weight would be of interest to our community if priced to compete with a Corvette-ish type vehicle. I don't include Nissan GTRs since I think they are ugly and our members won't overlook ugly just to get more power. The "baby NSX" would most likely be a good seller for the brand and satisfy the original NSX owners and the S2000 crowd, especially after the used ones hit the market after 3 years of depreciation.

Well, since the NSX is built in its own factory there isn't any way to shift the product mix to any other model. When the Ridgeline is a turd, you build more of what you can sell (Pilots). When the NSX doesn't sell fast enough to keep the line busy, you take days off.

I think those wishing for a higher volume, lower content / cost model are going to witness the market force Honda in the direction you desire. They may never acknowledge the mistake, but standing around without orders has a way of encouraging reflection.

liftcontrol said:

...You need leadership with a clear idea of what makes a car great and what its most devoted customers want....

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Who are these "most devoted customers?" Gen 1 owners? Most current ones did not buy new and the few that did mostly bought >15 years ago. There are *no* repeat customers for the Gen 2 in any meaningful sense. Gen 1 owners (on the whole) are not the target market. That just is what it is.

People can love or hate the Gen 2 car for whatever reason (or no reason). But the fact that the Gen 2 car is not "what the loyal customers wanted" has very little impact on the success or failure of the new car. As I have said before, I think it was dumb to call it "NSX" at all. Kind of a no-win situation for them.

u00mem91 said:

I think those wishing for a higher volume, lower content / cost model are going to witness the market force Honda in the direction you desire. They may never acknowledge the mistake, but standing around without orders has a way of encouraging reflection.

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The PMC was designed with the ability to produce other models in mind so maybe the production capacity will be shifted to something like a S2000 successor when it comes down the pipe. My guess is that the base NSX might not get an update until much later down the line or until a full model change.

My hope is that we get a RWD NSX that is a bit cheaper, lighter, and stiffer as an enthusiast model before too long. Call it a Senna edition and sell it with a replica of his helmet and a voucher for a trackday at COTA.

Let's look at Honda's overall view on performance and the NSX.

First of all I'm sure there were many executive sessions deciding the Honda corporate philosophy on their future performance cars.
I'm sure it would have involved many people at many levels within Honda.

At some point Honda decided to re-enter F1 which, as the pinnacle of high performance, is using hybrid technology.
And Honda also decided to build a new sports car using a similar hybrid drive train.
They also chose to call the new sports car an NSX to capitalize on the already known name and reputation of the first NSX.
That makes sense.

From those big picture decisions a group was given a clean sheet of paper, and a piece of ground with which to build a new factory and a brand new NSX.
Ted Klaus was given the job of implementing the Honda strategy and design a new NSX.

There is a large team of people involved in any new car project.
And there is an enormous difference between refining an existing car (911,GTR,R8, 570) and starting with a clean sheet of paper with a brand new car with a new technology.
Let's remember that the 911 has come a very long way since Ferry Porsche launched his first much maligned rear engined Porsche.

So before we call Ted Klaus derogatory names let's understand what we are criticizing.
Is it because we don't like Honda's corporate goal?
Is it because he did a poor job of implementing Honda's corporate goal?
Or is it because we don't really understand his role in the new NSX but we have his name so we can use that to rail against?

Well put, JD.

My only complaint is: they were 2-3 years too late. Had the Gen 2 car (exactly as it is now) been delivered as a 2015 model year car, the nay sayers would have A LOT less ammo.

JD Cross said:

So before we call Ted Klaus derogatory names let's understand what we are criticizing.
Is it because we don't like Honda's corporate goal?
Is it because he did a poor job of implementing Honda's corporate goal?
Or is it because we don't really understand his role in the new NSX but we have his name so we can use that to rail against?

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No, none of the above.
Just this:

NSX-SA :
I went to Japan October 2015 for the 25th anniversary of the NSX meet Ted Klaus spoke to him at length about the development of the new NSX i asked had he looked at NSXprime for feedback or a feel of what the NSX community was chatting about he said absolutely not Acura is heading in their own direction and did not want to know or was interested in what the NSX community was saying. To me that was bloody single minded and arrogant not only ignoring the potential client base but also the competition.

liftcontrol said:

No, none of the above.
Just this:NSX-SA :
I went to Japan October 2015 for the 25th anniversary of the NSX meet Ted Klaus spoke to him at length about the development of the new NSX i asked had he looked at NSXprime for feedback or a feel of what the NSX community was chatting about he said absolutely not Acura is heading in their own direction and did not want to know or was interested in what the NSX community was saying. To me that was bloody single minded and arrogant not only ignoring the potential client base but also the competition.

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You don't have the whole story.
Ted was in fact very interested in what the NSX community wanted and he spent a great deal of time seeking opinions from owners.
And Honda did reach out to the NSXCA with a survey about what current owners wanted in the new NSX.
Much discussion was had and as Bob indicated opinions on engine configuration, weight, design and so on were presented by our group.

By the time NSX-SA talked to TED, the launch of the new NSX was slated for early 2016, and the factory was already building prototypes
There was no time left for changes and I'd guess that's what Ted was trying to convey.

You don't like the new NSX and if, in your mind, Ted is solely responsible for that, don't buy one, and carry on.

JD Cross said:

You don't like the new NSX and if, in your mind, Ted is solely responsible for that, don't buy one, and carry on.

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Well, the buck stops at the top

One cannot blame or fault every member of the group that was responsible for the current car.
Just like in the VW debacle the finger is being pointed mainly at the top executive.
People don't blame "Russians", they blame "Putin". It goes with being the top dog. It goes with the position. You cannot have it both ways.

On the other hand, Tobias Moers of AMG is given all the credit even though there are dozens of engineers and designers and developers that work under him.
If the NSX was a clear cut success people would have no problem singing Ted's praises.

liftcontrol said:

Well, the buck stops at the top

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Yes it does.
And if you want to be critical then go to the top, not the project engineer.

One of the main reason for the delay in the NSX launch was Ted's internal fight for a new longitudinal turbocharged engine in place of the original transverse V6.
And we're glad he did, the new V6 is an incredible engine.

Keep in mind that that after NSXPO in 2013, Ted attended and arranged for Honda corporate support for NSXPO 2014, 2015, and 2016.
I didn't attend Japan in Oct 2015 but I did attend NSXPO 2015 in Palm Springs.
Ted was there, arranged for the new NSX to be there, and arranged for rides at the track for a few lucky owners.
The point being we were experiencing real prototypes by then.
Honda was well past soliciting input in Oct 2015, they were building the car.

I can assure you if the new NSX is a total failure or an eventual success, Ted would be the first to accept responsibility, and the last to take credit.
He's a class guy who delivered on very difficult project.

JD Cross said:

One of the main reason for the delay in the NSX launch was Ted's internal fight for a new longitudinal turbocharged engine in place of the original transverse V6.
And we're glad he did, the new V6 is an incredible engine.

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I agree with this completely.
This is a gem of an engine and would be an absolute blast in a lightweight chassis, FR or RR without any Hybrid tech. There should at least be such a "simpler" and "less sophisticated" variant

I am as glad as the next Honda admirer that they at the least had the courage to come up with this car. The hardest part is over. No one could have made a perfect car with the very first model. Now all they need to do is start working on improving this machine to make it what it has the potential to be :wink:

liftcontrol said:

I am as glad as the next Honda admirer that they at the least had the courage to come up with this car. The hardest part is over. No one could have made a perfect car with the very first model. Now all they need to do is start working on improving this machine to make it what it has the potential to be :wink:

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I agree with you, the hard part is done.
Will be interesting to watch the evolution of this NSX, much as Porsche, McLaren, Audi, Nissan etc. have evolved their offerings over time.
And we can see how this hybrid driveline develops, not only at Honda, but in the announced hybrids coming from the others.

JD Cross said:

I agree with you, the hard part is done.
Will be interesting to watch the evolution of this NSX, much as Porsche, McLaren, Audi, Nissan etc. have evolved their offerings over time.
And we can see how this hybrid driveline develops, not only at Honda, but in the announced hybrids coming from the others.

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agreed

G.Irish said:

I don't see an update coming any sooner than 3 years, and that's if we get an update at all. On one hand I'd like to think Honda has learned from the past, but given what some Honda people have said about how they view the NSX, I'm not so sure. For example, one of the Acura execs told me that the NSX is a showcase for what they're capable of and that they're not tremendously worried about moving units the way a sports car only manufacturer would be. That kind of indicates to me that it might not be a priority to update the base model NSX.

As for the NSX-R, it wasn't the fastest car for the money when it was released, but it was only released in Japan so it kind of wasn't held up against the competition often. Even then, there's so much more competition now that they really shouldn't treat the NSX-R the same this time as they did last time. We've got regular musclecars with tremendous racetrack pace as well as cars like the AMG GT-R and Huracan Performante that have absolutely staggering performance. The Type-R has to have credible performance among that company.

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i'd concur with all of that, but that's also been Honda's way for a while now. they like to show people how fancy they can be. "look at us, look how smart we are. we can do all of this complicated confusing stuff and make it work so well together."

the only problem is, it usually doesn't work any better than everyone else's simple offering...

chrisn said:

People can love or hate the Gen 2 car for whatever reason (or no reason). But the fact that the Gen 2 car is not "what the loyal customers wanted" has very little impact on the success or failure of the new car.

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yet it is having an impact on sales and success...

RSO 34 said:

The bottom line is that although this car is called an "NSX" it is nothing like our originals. It is not being marketed to original NSX owners/fan base and is meant for a different demographic. True, they benefit from our small but passionate community by calling it an NSX but there was no way they would read our comments here and build what we wanted since they wanted to try to be a leader with hybrid/etc. technology and we just wanted 500hp/V8/NA/RWD with some more carbon fiber and shiny bits and pieces - - - all for no more than $100k.

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well, if they won't listen to the original NSX buyers and owners, perhaps they should have listened to the general consensus of Sportcar/Supercar buyers and built what they wanted also? then the NSX wouldn't be lagging behind the R8, AMG, 911, GTR and others in the sales numbers listed on the other thread.

you know, just a thought...

Ted cares about gen 1 owners.....I have seen it first hand...

G.Irish said:

To be fair to Ted, the NSX's hybrid concept was something that was decided above his pay grade. The NSX team had to make the best car they could within those parameters. The head honchos in Japan originally thought that they could get the job done with a juiced up SOHC J-series motor in the back. It was the American team that lobbied for and got the V6TT. In the times I talked to Ted he didn't seem arrogant at all. Honestly I'm amazed at how upbeat and positive he is given the flak the NSX gets sometimes.

Anyway, it seems like there were more than a few differing opinions internally about the NSX approach. It'd be interesting to see who took what position but I think it'd be really difficult to get people to admit to not believing in the NSX's approach. Occasionally Honda people have admitted things to us (Temple of VTEC) that contradicted the wishes of their superiors, or situations where they pushed back to get to a better outcome. Often times it's been off the record.

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it should've been built in Japan as the "head honcho's" wanted but with the engine layout changed to what it is now then we would all be going bingo!

docjohn said:

Ted cares about gen 1 owners.....I have seen it first hand...

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Except ones who badger him incessantly after an NSXPO dinner about adding a manual trans...I have seen it first hand...

Yinzer said:

Except ones who badger him incessantly after an NSXPO dinner about adding a manual trans...I have seen it first hand...

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If Porsche can see it fit to listen to its die hard fans and give them a manual GT3 perhaps Honda can one day do the same

In the meantime you may give the upcoming Civic Type R a look to satisfy your left foot dying for some action

difference being they had an existing transmission to work from.

porsche is expert at parts bin special editions.

Does anyone really think the Gen 2 NSX should have had a manual transmission? I have not heard that before. Other than perhaps in the context of a completely different car.

nope , new cars like the new nsx are helped not hurt by the ultra-fast manu-matic trans......as cars become more powerful and computerized the shifting function also needs to be...I think the old Porsche gt is a good example of a car with a manual trans that should have had a dual clutch auto....from what i have read that car has proven very challenging to drive for the less skilled

chrisn said:

Does anyone really think the Gen 2 NSX should have had a manual transmission? I have not heard that before. Other than perhaps in the context of a completely different car.

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everyone. especially all the keyboard jockeys at home who are not in the market for this car. #savethemanuals

Bricks and Bio said:

I didn't mean to come off negatively on the LC, I think it is fantastic and the hybrid will be awesome, a true GT that will reward the driver with serenity, luxury and style and be really fun to drive.

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Not at all. The LC ordering system just went live for dealers this week, and I did spec and deposit for May/June delivery. LC is being be made at the Motomachi plant, where the LFA was produced.