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Acura needs to wake up

L

liftcontrol

Experienced Member
Joined
20 February 2003
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596
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26000 light years from the nearest black hole
I feel with the poor sales of the new NSX and the large number of quickly bought NSXs now for sale, even the die hard new NSX fans and especially Honda need to start realizing what some of us have been saying for a long time now.

I am hopeful that this incredible engineering powerhouse of a company will now do the right thing and give us a non Hybrid, non electric motor version with the current and very impressive tt 6 with its impressive HP rating in a traditional and light Honda with more than enough power but with outstanding handling. The deletion of the electric motors will bring the steering feel back as well.

The Lexus LC500 is already being rumored to have an LCF in the works to be released in 2018 with over 600 hp and 470 lb/ft of torque from a 4 litter tt v8.
Toyota has got it right. They do have their Priuses and hybrid models in almost everything they sell and will offer it in the LC500 as well but they know they have to offer one outright Euro fighter and that they are doing the old fashioned way.

Honda are for ever impressed by their own admittedly amazing engineering prowess, but that does not necessarily translate to a great drivers car.

The return of the Typer R to the US and the rumors of the return of the s2000 are all pointing to better times but they must turn this fiasco of the NSX pointing the right way soon. The car seems to have disappeared from public consciousness. The Jay Lenos of the world have bought theirs and a few of the others who were carried away by the hype....but the majority of the so called super car buying public, myself included, are staying on the fence and looking elsewhere...like at the LCF , unless Honda can bring their amazing magic back and give us the real NSX back.
 
To be honest I don't think Honda needs to panic. What they need to do is learn and adapt from the feedback they've gotten.

A. Hopefully they're developing a mid cycle update for the NSX for the 2018 or 2019 model year. With that update they need to be far more aggressive with the horsepower from the ICE engine. Not sure if they can also incorporate a 48v e-motor system at that time, might be too costly for a mid cycle refresh
B. Set the performance targets correctly for the Type-R. Don't aim to be faster than the competition today, aim for where the competition will be when the NSX-R goes on sale.
C. I hope they're developing some sort of RWD variant that is stiffer and lighter for enthusiasts who might not be able to drop $200k+ on the Type-R.
D. More colors, interior trim options, wheels etc.

For now, we know a Type-R is coming and they've talked about other variants, but who knows what that means. I hope some sort of lightweight RWD NSX is a higher priority than a Spider for example, but realistically spiders sell so...
 
My understanding is point D may be the biggest deal.

Super car buyers love to really express themselves through the spec and the current range of choices is way too limited for folks used to the range of options Ferrari, Lambo and now McLaren will let them pick from.

On the Lexus LC point, for fair balance, folks are pissed at the price, that the car uses a recycled V8, that the hybrid is low on power and even higher priced than the V8, that the LC-F (which will have a slush box) pricing will be sky high.
 
Bricks and Bio said:
On the Lexus LC point, for fair balance, folks are pissed at the price, that the car uses a recycled V8, that the hybrid is low on power and even higher priced than the V8, that the LC-F (which will have a slush box) pricing will be sky high.
Click to expand...
To be fair, the LC and NSX are really crossed shopped, completely different targets. LC is a grand tour, think S class. I really don't think people are pissed, $100K was expected (since RCF tops out over $80K). Lexus is never about the fastest or most HP. They're about technology and refined driving experience. I'm very excited for the LC, actually looking forward to getting one to replace my current Lexus dd.
 
G.Irish said:
To be honest I don't think Honda needs to panic. What they need to do is learn and adapt from the feedback they've gotten.

A. Hopefully they're developing a mid cycle update for the NSX for the 2018 or 2019 model year. With that update they need to be far more aggressive with the horsepower from the ICE engine. Not sure if they can also incorporate a 48v e-motor system at that time, might be too costly for a mid cycle refresh
B. Set the performance targets correctly for the Type-R. Don't aim to be faster than the competition today, aim for where the competition will be when the NSX-R goes on sale.
C. I hope they're developing some sort of RWD variant that is stiffer and lighter for enthusiasts who might not be able to drop $200k+ on the Type-R.
D. More colors, interior trim options, wheels etc.

For now, we know a Type-R is coming and they've talked about other variants, but who knows what that means. I hope some sort of lightweight RWD NSX is a higher priority than a Spider for example, but realistically spiders sell so...
Click to expand...

unless it was a top-to-bottom fail like the last gen civic, i dont see a midcycle refresh or significant updates coming 1 yr into the lifecycle.

I'm far from an NSX historian, so someone fill me in please, but the NSX-R wasnt the fastest when released?

Option D seems most likely, followed by C, B.
 
I didn't mean to come off negatively on the LC, I think it is fantastic and the hybrid will be awesome, a true GT that will reward the driver with serenity, luxury and style and be really fun to drive.
 
liftcontrol said:
I feel with the poor sales of the new NSX and the large number of quickly bought NSXs now for sale, even the die hard new NSX fans and especially Honda need to start realizing what some of us have been saying for a long time now.

I am hopeful that this incredible engineering powerhouse of a company will now do the right thing and give us a non Hybrid, non electric motor version with the current and very impressive tt 6 with its impressive HP rating in a traditional and light Honda with more than enough power but with outstanding handling. The deletion of the electric motors will bring the steering feel back as well.

The Lexus LC500 is already being rumored to have an LCF in the works to be released in 2018 with over 600 hp and 470 lb/ft of torque from a 4 litter tt v8.
Toyota has got it right. They do have their Priuses and hybrid models in almost everything they sell and will offer it in the LC500 as well but they know they have to offer one outright Euro fighter and that they are doing the old fashioned way.

Honda are for ever impressed by their own admittedly amazing engineering prowess, but that does not necessarily translate to a great drivers car.

The return of the Typer R to the US and the rumors of the return of the s2000 are all pointing to better times but they must turn this fiasco of the NSX pointing the right way soon. The car seems to have disappeared from public consciousness. The Jay Lenos of the world have bought theirs and a few of the others who were carried away by the hype....but the majority of the so called super car buying public, myself included, are staying on the fence and looking elsewhere...like at the LCF , unless Honda can bring their amazing magic back and give us the real NSX back.
Click to expand...

Hmm.. Will the LC-F be that much lighter than the boat that the LC500? I seriously doubt it....

Curb Weight: 4,280 lbs (LC500); 4,435 lbs (LC500h)

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/drive-r...0s-first-drive-concept-road-car#ixzz4a7yQdeMl
 
G.Irish said:
To be honest I don't think Honda needs to panic. What they need to do is learn and adapt from the feedback they've gotten.

Hopefully they're developing a mid cycle update for the NSX for the 2018 or 2019 model year. With that update they need to be far more aggressive with the horsepower from the ICE engine. Not sure if they can also incorporate a 48v e-motor system at that time, might be too costly for a mid cycle refresh
Click to expand...

i wouldn't imagine a mid-cycle refresh to come any sooner than 3 or 4 years at the earliest. it costs a lot of money for something like that, and this car isn't even a year old yet...
 
Bricks and Bio said:
On the Lexus LC point, for fair balance, folks are pissed at the price, that the car uses a recycled V8, that the hybrid is low on power and even higher priced than the V8, that the LC-F (which will have a slush box) pricing will be sky high.
Click to expand...

Remember that the LC500 is just a GT that happens to have a sexy body and a superb normally aspirated V8 that is also used in the
"Lowly" RCF. The LC sounds phenomenal and from the first reviews has a deft balance and composure along with phenomenal steering feel. This is essentially a 6 and SL fighter. But, with a proper engine this chassis (stiffer than the LFA's) is capable of taking on some far more serious competition. It might just offer that sweet spot which is powerful enough, handles well enough, sounds the business and certainly looks outstandingly bodacious while standing still, to be a success.

I would love to see Honda, after they are done showboating their complex technology,
To get back into doing what they do best and build a drivers car that will show that their DNA can still be translated into actual products to thrill their true audience.

The GTR was never faulted for being low on capability. It was and is blamed for being an amazing performer without the joy of the process. Why should this NSX deserve to be immune to the same fair criticism?
 
2slow2speed said:
Hmm.. Will the LC-F be that much lighter than the boat that the LC500? I seriously doubt it....

Curb Weight: 4,280 lbs (LC500); 4,435 lbs (LC500h)

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/drive-r...0s-first-drive-concept-road-car#ixzz4a7yQdeMl
Click to expand...
No, the LC is clearly not a lightweight GT.
But it is a GT and not a so called super car.
It can afford to be heavier as long as it looks sexy and has a great sounding engine and handles as well as it is reported to handle.
The LCF when it shows up will have to take the performance to a much higher level.

Also, the LC has no prior expectations of or indeed any rights on being a world contender.
It just showed up to the party looking pretty.
The NSX, poor thing, has been burdened by expectations that cannot be dismissed. That is the price of having an Einstein or a Hemingway or a Federer for a father when you have taken on the challenge of playing in the same arena that daddy conquered;)
 
liftcontrol said:
Honda are for ever impressed by their own admittedly amazing engineering prowess, but that does not necessarily translate to a great drivers car.
Click to expand...
This criticism is a virtual epidemic IMHO today (Honda's not alone) where the collision of four "advancements" seems to too often nowadays result in "less great" consumer goods offerings than 10 years ago. "We are/were pretty great but the competition is just so good now," "so, just being great is no longer good enough." "Therefore we must be really new, fresh, and different," "so let's use all the increased computing & manufacturing power we have now vs. 10 years ago to the fullest." Then consumers get all this stretch technology often wrapped in extreme visual design/shapes that couldn't possibly be manufactured economically 10 years ago that's all certainly really new but not as pure and often not as enjoyable as back when they didn't try so hard. Apple is about the worst at this, producing what they think is best for them and not for the consumer. With so much of the competition so caught up to each other, I don't think this is going away anytime soon, sorry to say. So get used to it for now. :(
 
Last edited:
fastaussie said:
so you reckon simpler is the way to go?
Click to expand...

Not so much that as: I personally think too many consumer product makers (even Honda) nowadays are thinking too hard and too caught up in their heads, focusing on what marketing thinks the consumer wants and somehow missing on delivering something the consumer loves more than critiques. Eh....don't listen to me so much...I'm just a real whiner on this subject. Maybe it's just me. :)
 
Yinzer said:
Not so much that as: I personally think too many consumer product makers (even Honda) nowadays are thinking too hard and too caught up in their heads, focusing on what marketing thinks the consumer wants and somehow missing on delivering something the consumer loves more than critiques. Eh....don't listen to me so much...I'm just a real whiner on this subject. Maybe it's just me. :)
Click to expand...

nah, it's not just you. more than a few Primers seem to be frustrated that Honda isn't listening to them, the would-be owners/fans of this car...
 
fastaussie said:
nah, it's not just you. more than a few Primers seem to be frustrated that Honda isn't listening to them, the would-be owners/fans of this car...
Click to expand...

I went to Japan October 2015 for the 25th anniversary of the NSX meet Ted Klaus spoke to him at length about the development of the new NSX i asked had he looked at NSXprime for feedback or a feel of what the NSX community was chatting about he said absolutely not Acura is heading in their own direction and did not want to know or was interested in what the NSX community was saying. To me that was bloody single minded and arrogant not only ignoring the potential client base but also the competition.
 
you have to be joking?!

that is Honda's corporate philosophy in regards to this car? to ignore the owners of the original, the namesake of which they are reviving after an excessively long hiatus?

they were hoping to wow the world again, but they forget the people who helped them with this feat the first time around? farking brilliant...

p.s. can't say i would see the Italians or Germans doing ridiculously dumb shit like that? that's a whole new level of stupid.
 
powdbyrice said:
unless it was a top-to-bottom fail like the last gen civic, i dont see a midcycle refresh or significant updates coming 1 yr into the lifecycle.

I'm far from an NSX historian, so someone fill me in please, but the NSX-R wasnt the fastest when released?

Option D seems most likely, followed by C, B.
Click to expand...

Yeah my mistake, I meant to say calendar year. I agree, I don't see an update coming any sooner than 3 years, and that's if we get an update at all. On one hand I'd like to think Honda has learned from the past, but given what some Honda people have said about how they view the NSX, I'm not so sure. For example, one of the Acura execs told me that the NSX is a showcase for what they're capable of and that they're not tremendously worried about moving units the way a sports car only manufacturer would be. That kind of indicates to me that it might not be a priority to update the base model NSX.

As for the NSX-R, it wasn't the fastest car for the money when it was released, but it was only released in Japan so it kind of wasn't held up against the competition often. Even then, there's so much more competition now that they really shouldn't treat the NSX-R the same this time as they did last time. We've got regular musclecars with tremendous racetrack pace as well as cars like the AMG GT-R and Huracan Performante that have absolutely staggering performance. The Type-R has to have credible performance among that company.
 
NSX-SA said:
I went to Japan October 2015 for the 25th anniversary of the NSX meet Ted Klaus spoke to him at length about the development of the new NSX i asked had he looked at NSXprime for feedback or a feel of what the NSX community was chatting about he said absolutely not Acura is heading in their own direction and did not want to know or was interested in what the NSX community was saying. To me that was bloody single minded and arrogant not only ignoring the potential client base but also the competition.
Click to expand...

If Ted Klaus stated the truth, then it is quite easy to see why the car he came up with is the confused high tech robot it is.
You need leadership with a clear idea of what makes a car great and what its most devoted customers want.
TK sounds like an ignorant, arrogant, clue-less man who will likely go down as a failure, having cost Honda a good sum.

Porsche, Ferrari etc. have nothing to fear from this Honda...it is lost in it's own barf.
 
liftcontrol said:
If Ted Klaus stated the truth, then it is quite easy to see why the car he came up with is the confused high tech robot it is.
You need leadership with a clear idea of what makes a car great and what its most devoted customers want.
TK sounds like an ignorant, arrogant, clue-less man who will likely go down as a failure, having cost Honda a good sum.

Porsche, Ferrari etc. have nothing to fear from this Honda...it is lost in it's own barf.
Click to expand...

To be fair to Ted, the NSX's hybrid concept was something that was decided above his pay grade. The NSX team had to make the best car they could within those parameters. The head honchos in Japan originally thought that they could get the job done with a juiced up SOHC J-series motor in the back. It was the American team that lobbied for and got the V6TT. In the times I talked to Ted he didn't seem arrogant at all. Honestly I'm amazed at how upbeat and positive he is given the flak the NSX gets sometimes.

Anyway, it seems like there were more than a few differing opinions internally about the NSX approach. It'd be interesting to see who took what position but I think it'd be really difficult to get people to admit to not believing in the NSX's approach. Occasionally Honda people have admitted things to us (Temple of VTEC) that contradicted the wishes of their superiors, or situations where they pushed back to get to a better outcome. Often times it's been off the record.

There definitely is a thread of arrogance at Honda. Sometimes they believe their hype so much as to ignore how good the competition is in a segment. Or they think that they know better what they want than the customer. It seems like this is particularly acute with performance products. Honda gets all of the bread and butter cars like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, Fit, and Odyssey right almost all the time. But when you ask them to make something for luxury customers or performance customers and it's a struggle.
 
liftcontrol said:
If Ted Klaus stated the truth, then it is quite easy to see why the car he came up with is the confused high tech robot it is.
You need leadership with a clear idea of what makes a car great and what its most devoted customers want.
TK sounds like an ignorant, arrogant, clue-less man who will likely go down as a failure, having cost Honda a good sum.
Porsche, Ferrari etc. have nothing to fear from this Honda...it is lost in it's own barf.
Click to expand...

Have you met Ted Klaus?
Have you spoken with him at all?

I drove my NSX 4K miles in 2013 to hear Ted speak at NSXPO in Raleigh.
We spent an afternoon touring the Porsche museum display and talking Porsches, the new NSX, the old NSX, and other topics.
I found him to be a student of automobilia, he knew as much about the Porsche's on display as the Porsche people.
Very knowledgeable, understood more about cars and the endless trade-offs to build them than anyone I've ever met.
We continue to communicate to this day.
 
G.Irish said:
There definitely is a thread of arrogance at Honda. Sometimes they believe their hype so much as to ignore how good the competition is in a segment. Or they think that they know better what they want than the customer. It seems like this is particularly acute with performance products. Honda gets all of the bread and butter cars like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, Fit, and Odyssey right almost all the time. But when you ask them to make something for luxury customers or performance customers and it's a struggle.
Click to expand...

This is a very accurate statement. Every HONDA product seems to hit its mark and is at least as good as its competition in that segment.
The Type R is a world beater and HONDA has seen right to bring in to these shores. It also appears they are serious about a sequel to the S2000 and all that bodes well for HONDA.
It appear to me that HONDA is doing everything right and making money while Acura is stumbling and is an drag on the finances of the entire organization.
 
JD Cross said:
Have you met Ted Klaus?
Have you spoken with him at all?

I drove my NSX 4K miles in 2013 to hear Ted speak at NSXPO in Raleigh.
We spent an afternoon touring the Porsche museum display and talking Porsches, the new NSX, the old NSX, and other topics.
I found him to be a student of automobilia, he knew as much about the Porsche's on display as the Porsche people.
Very knowledgeable, understood more about cars and the endless trade-offs to build them than anyone I've ever met.
We continue to communicate to this day.
Click to expand...

Never met him, have no desire to.
I have learned that you can tell a whole lot more about someone from what they do rather than what they say.

Your driving several thousand miles to hear him talk is interesting but does not alter the arguments either way.
If he is so knowledgeable about Porsche, I wish he had taken their approach of making cars lighter at heart; their steering feel and the breaking feel is also something he seems to have ignored :)

Just like, in his own words, he ignores the thoughts and comments of NSXprime members.

What Honda does with the NSX in the next 2-3 years will be very telling as to what THEY think of it.
If they are using their heads they will look at the pitiful sales figures from the very first year and see how cars that have been on the market for several years and have lost that new car wow factor are still soundly beating the brand new JayLeno-did-an-ad-for-it-so-it-must-be-good porker.
 
liftcontrol said:
Never met him, have no desire to. I have learned that you can tell a whole lot more about someone from what they do rather than what they say.
Click to expand...

It's one thing to critique a faceless Corporation like Honda/Acura or GM or.....
Everyone seems to do it on the internet...

However you might go easy on calling a person you've never met an "ignorant, arrogant, clue-less man".
Doesn't really add any value to the Forum.
 

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