They still let things like that on a race track? Just curious, never tracked my cars.
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Porsche Cayman GT4 vs. Modified NSX
- Thread starter RYU
- Start date
Oh and btw, [MENTION=15790]Patricio[/MENTION], nice track video. I haven't seen you post much until recently. Are you going to update your build thread? How is the nsx running?
I have a video of following Ryan with that wing. Need to find it...
[MENTION=31260]Jinks[/MENTION]
thanks!
NSX has been running great, took a few months to get the turbo bugs ironed out and the carbon manifold reinforced to hold boost and track tested.
Been mostly focusing on replacing any old parts that could fail soon, for a cross country road trip I'm starting in a about a month, gonna camp/hike the big national parks & trails, check off the sightseeing bucket-list along with some race tracks, All without a trailer and driving the NSX... we shall see how far I and the car can endure.
thanks!
NSX has been running great, took a few months to get the turbo bugs ironed out and the carbon manifold reinforced to hold boost and track tested.
Been mostly focusing on replacing any old parts that could fail soon, for a cross country road trip I'm starting in a about a month, gonna camp/hike the big national parks & trails, check off the sightseeing bucket-list along with some race tracks, All without a trailer and driving the NSX... we shall see how far I and the car can endure.
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Patricio,
I don't doubt for a second that the NSX is a very capable car when modded. I don't doubt that your modded NSX can chase down all kinds of cars at the track. That has not been the point of my argument.
Your original statement was that Ryan's car was lightly modded, my argument was that his car was not lightly modded given that he runs a vented hood, the Billy Johnson special wicker, race grade suspension, etc. Given the sound restriction at LS, he even has to run with the stock exhaust, as it currently stands he has maximized the use of every HP that is available on his car at LS given the current configuration. I also pointed out that Ryan is one hell of a driver.
As I mentioned before the one area that the Cayman platform really underperforms is in the suspension department, the strut based suspension really leaves a lot to be desired when it becomes loaded since the wheel starts to lose camber. So there is a world of difference in regards to cornering performance when you go from -ve 1.0 degrees to -ve 2.5~3.0 degrees. The GT4's that I know of that have gotten within 1-2 seconds of Randy's time were shed with Bridgestone RE-71R's and not slicks (in the 1:38's to be precise).
My entire point of my post was that as a long term ownership that a stock form GT4 would retain value better than a modded NSX nothing more nothing less. If you take into account issues like emissions inspection sound restrictions at tracks it becomes a lot more convenient to own a turn key track car.
@Jinks
thanks!
NSX has been running great, took a few months to get the turbo bugs ironed out and the carbon manifold reinforced to hold boost and track tested.
Been mostly focusing on replacing any old parts that could fail soon, for a cross country road trip I'm starting in a about a month, gonna camp/hike the big national parks & trails, check off the sightseeing bucket-list along with some race tracks, All without a trailer and driving the NSX... we shall see how far I and the car can endure.
FYI, I love your avatar pic, and I hate the nsx in white.
Tell RYU to stop huffing glue. He will never sell his nsx and NEVER stop modifying it.... Heard that many times before.:biggrin: But, I can see the allure to buy a new car. Fresh interior, no rattles, no thuds, no glare, AC that blows ice cubes. I thought about selling my nsx so many times. But I love it more than I hate it. Yes, there are MANY things I do not like about it though. Especially for a 5'10" guy that weights 270 lbs. You track guys need to eat a good meal....:wink: A GT4 looks like a Volkswagen bug with a boy racer wing to me. Just my take as I am trying to get back to topic. Love it or list it bitches!
I guess it's subjective but I wouldn't call Ryan's car "highly modified". His suspension is in the same category and track-focused as the GT4, so I call them comparable. If you were comparing a base Cayman S or Cayman GTS, I might agree with you, but the GT4's suspension is very track focused.
Ryan's aero isn't as good as the Caymans and the GT4 runs on 245/295 while Ryan's car is 235/275. With a proper GT4-equivalent wing and 245/295, his car would be seconds quicker, on top of Ryan being a couple seconds off Randy as a driver.
I agree struts are fundamentally flawwed but they still work quite good, especially on light cars with low Cgs (Cayman).
The RE-71R is on the same performance level as the MPSC2 & NT01. Ryan's car was on NT01s, not slicks.
0.02
Since you are more familiar with the BOP's I won't argue with you about the potential for lap times at LS for a GT4 clubsport.
That been said I know that CJ Wilson has done a 1:42 at Sears with his GT4 clubsport during qualy last year, and IIRC he was carrying ballast weight on his race car. I extrapolated the laptime for the GT4 CS for LS by doing the usual remove 10 seconds from lap times between LS and Sears for most cars that are maxed out and subtract a second due to the weight penalty.
In regards to the quality of the PASM Bilstein's vs the Penske's that Ryan is running in his car you probably know better as well. But in regards to overall suspension geometry the NSX with it's double wishbone suspension F/R vs the standard GT4 with it's strut based suspension is where I do have my doubts.
Folks running aggressive track alignment on the GT4's have to use more than the shims to get the desired numbers, so I don't believe that PAG would provide those parts around for tests and such. Maybe I am wrong, but lap times from owners tracking their GT4's seem to indicate that seconds were left on the table with the MT test.
The GT4's suspension is as track-focused as the NSX-R's suspension if not more. Ryan's Penske's aren't seconds faster than the NSX-R and is just as track focused (more towards performance than comfort).
Yes struts are 'cheap', flawwed, and Porsche & BMW ditch them for SLA control arms in their top level race cars. I guess the argument is comparing one of the greatest sports car manufacturer's current track-focused car vs. a 20 year old car with simple mods that bring it into the 21st century.
Porsche, GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. all send 'techs' to these magazine shootouts and ensure the cars have track alignments. Gone are the days of on track tests with OEM street focused alignments. Some companies run their specified track alignments and components, some companies cheat up their cars a bit, so it really should be taken with a grain of salt anyway.
so slow2speed in your opinion is that because he runs a vented hood a redneck gurney flap and suspension and exhaust that makes his car significantly modded? Those are about the most basic mods that the majority of this forum has made,
Allot of modifications to me, means turbos, superchargers, strokers, wide bodys, roll cages, big brakes, big wings, stripped interiors ect ect.
So I guess we just have differing measures of defining "lightly" and "heavily" modded.
As far as the comment of modified NSX not holding its value is incorrect, as the market has proven, the value will always be relative, when the day comes that a stock low miles NA1 NSX reaches $200k, a high miles NA1 car may sell for 125k, and a modified NA1 car will sell for 150k.. just like years ago in that same order 60k/25k/40k.. today those numbers are 70k/35k/50k.. I stand behind my comment that a GT4 value has no precedent, because it's still a mass produced entry level caymen chassis, the general population it will still correlate it to $10K base caymens used car lots, just like Z06's that have made magazine headlines every generation and then few years later lurk into the shadows of the classified sections...
It takes allot more than a bodykit, bigger engine and GT3 suspension to make a legendary collectable. people want a timeless unique design and rarity which the caymen chassis offers neither of those. It's still considered a poor-mans entry level Porsche chassis that snobby 911 owners and other exotic buyers snicker at, and buy one for their girlfriend, and no laptime will change that anytime soon
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[MENTION=31260]Jinks[/MENTION]... thanks! glad to have made you unwillingly appreciate a GPW
Allot of modifications to me, means turbos, superchargers, strokers, wide bodys, roll cages, big brakes, big wings, stripped interiors ect ect.
So I guess we just have differing measures of defining "lightly" and "heavily" modded.
As far as the comment of modified NSX not holding its value is incorrect, as the market has proven, the value will always be relative, when the day comes that a stock low miles NA1 NSX reaches $200k, a high miles NA1 car may sell for 125k, and a modified NA1 car will sell for 150k.. just like years ago in that same order 60k/25k/40k.. today those numbers are 70k/35k/50k.. I stand behind my comment that a GT4 value has no precedent, because it's still a mass produced entry level caymen chassis, the general population it will still correlate it to $10K base caymens used car lots, just like Z06's that have made magazine headlines every generation and then few years later lurk into the shadows of the classified sections...
It takes allot more than a bodykit, bigger engine and GT3 suspension to make a legendary collectable. people want a timeless unique design and rarity which the caymen chassis offers neither of those. It's still considered a poor-mans entry level Porsche chassis that snobby 911 owners and other exotic buyers snicker at, and buy one for their girlfriend, and no laptime will change that anytime soon
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[MENTION=31260]Jinks[/MENTION]... thanks! glad to have made you unwillingly appreciate a GPW
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Good to hear. Otherwise I was going to suggest liberal use of duct tape. The red color is faster.
Sigh... So you are telling me that a NSX that has been modded and tracked hard will retain it's value or go up in value substantially? Seriously? Who in their right mind would be willing to purchase an unknown quantity where potential replacement parts are unobtainable, who is going to service that stroked engine or engine with the ITB's or custom turbo setup 5/10 years from now??
Again, there are a lot more Porsche owners and prospective future collectors than what you think. The GT4 has motorsports history associated with it given how the GT4CS has performed over the past 2 years. Some folks simply decided to purchase more than one, one to drive and one to bubble wrap for the future. Guess those folks who decided to do so think that the GT4 is a plain vanilla Cayman..
Anyways as you said let the chips fall where they may..
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Time will tell if the Porsche loyalists in the future will value and desire Caymans as much as 911s.
Value will always be relative
Were talking about a relatively young legendary car with production numbers so low they compare to testarosa's 7500 production.
with this low of production eventually there will be buyers for cars in ANY condition
just like people will buy a rustbucket 356 buried 5 feet in dirt for $50k and spend $200k restoring it.
anyone who doesn't think the NSX is heading in that direction, is forgetting this is the first Japanese supercar engineered as an offshoot of mclauren-honda and aryton senna's glory days, the introduction of VTEC, full aluminum production car chassis, and titanium rods, and .32 cd aero, that sent exotic cars back to the drawing board and inspired Gordan murray to use it as a measuring stick to design the legendary F1.
Sure we are in the US, and 300million of us were not watching the NSX dominate JGTC, but the majority of the male 4.3Billion population of Asia has dreamed of owning one at one point, and there are only 8800 made.
the NSX will hit $1M dollars some day, and I may be 80 years old by then, or the frame I get buried in may sell for 200k, but if I can ill send you PM to find out what your caymen is worth.
Were talking about a relatively young legendary car with production numbers so low they compare to testarosa's 7500 production.
with this low of production eventually there will be buyers for cars in ANY condition
just like people will buy a rustbucket 356 buried 5 feet in dirt for $50k and spend $200k restoring it.
anyone who doesn't think the NSX is heading in that direction, is forgetting this is the first Japanese supercar engineered as an offshoot of mclauren-honda and aryton senna's glory days, the introduction of VTEC, full aluminum production car chassis, and titanium rods, and .32 cd aero, that sent exotic cars back to the drawing board and inspired Gordan murray to use it as a measuring stick to design the legendary F1.
Sure we are in the US, and 300million of us were not watching the NSX dominate JGTC, but the majority of the male 4.3Billion population of Asia has dreamed of owning one at one point, and there are only 8800 made.
the NSX will hit $1M dollars some day, and I may be 80 years old by then, or the frame I get buried in may sell for 200k, but if I can ill send you PM to find out what your caymen is worth.
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I understand your arguments and your point of view.
I spend half of my time in Japan and folks here have other things to do than dreaming about importing a NSX from the US given the large number of headaches that are involved. Have enthusiast friends who live in Malaysia as well as Singapore, but importing cars there from the US is a headache as well.
Your best bet might be the folks from Mainland China who have money to burn, but those folks have not shown any major interest in the NSX given that there have not been that many that have been snapped up and exported to China from the US AFAIK. Then again those are the same folks that became overnight collectors of P-cars who decided to drive up prices in order to get their collection of toys shipped from the US to China, so who knows when and if their animosity towards Japanese vehicles becomes subdued they might change their minds.
Anyways, enjoy your car.
My Asian population comment was just for refrence of the worldwide market
As we all know the nsx made allot of headlines in the US and rest of the world and still gets referred to in modern car reviews
In the US the JDM following started in the 90's thus that generation of teenage dreamers won't generally have serious money to burn until another 30 years or so.. right now their still buying first their homes and starting families.
What drives the 911 prices insane is the 60-70's generation of teenagers that today have reached thier 60's, the age of having allot of money to burn with no kids to take care of, paid off mortgages to refinance and childhood dreams to satisfy... combine that with the 911 having captured a half dozen generations of teenagers thanks to its deeply rooted and consistently designed body lines and bam you have recipe for a cult following spanning mutiple generations unlike any car has ever achieved except the beettle.
The 911 is it's own animal. Porsche is the 911. no new chassis from any brand is anywhere near the 911's 50 years of consistently capturing hearts & souls of teenagers.
As we all know the nsx made allot of headlines in the US and rest of the world and still gets referred to in modern car reviews
In the US the JDM following started in the 90's thus that generation of teenage dreamers won't generally have serious money to burn until another 30 years or so.. right now their still buying first their homes and starting families.
What drives the 911 prices insane is the 60-70's generation of teenagers that today have reached thier 60's, the age of having allot of money to burn with no kids to take care of, paid off mortgages to refinance
and childhood dreams to satisfy... combine that with the 911 having captured a half dozen generations of teenagers thanks to its deeply rooted and consistently designed body lines and bam you have recipe for a cult following spanning mutiple generations unlike any car has ever achieved except the beettle.The 911 is it's own animal. Porsche is the 911. no new chassis from any brand is anywhere near the 911's 50 years of consistently capturing hearts & souls of teenagers.
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Some of the 911 market has gone insane not because of enthusiasts are willing to pay for the cars they loved as teenagers, but purely due to speculators who believe in the greater fool theory.
997.2 gt3RS 4.0 selling for $750k with 200 miles and three owners is not going to anyone who is an enthusiast, nor was anyone who ever owned that specific car an enthusiast. That's the car market we are in - instead of buying art, speculators are buying cars.
NSXs may appreciate from here they might not. Who knows. I think that's GT4s will hold their value just fine, regular Caymans not so much. I wouldn't want to own an 911R right now. Or a 991.1 GT3. Car markets are weird. They go up and down based upon what people think they are going to do, not about the car! If you're living with an expectation of realizing higher value for an NSX the last thing I'd do is track it- I'd get a Cayman S for that
997.2 gt3RS 4.0 selling for $750k with 200 miles and three owners is not going to anyone who is an enthusiast, nor was anyone who ever owned that specific car an enthusiast. That's the car market we are in - instead of buying art, speculators are buying cars.
NSXs may appreciate from here they might not. Who knows. I think that's GT4s will hold their value just fine, regular Caymans not so much. I wouldn't want to own an 911R right now. Or a 991.1 GT3. Car markets are weird. They go up and down based upon what people think they are going to do, not about the car! If you're living with an expectation of realizing higher value for an NSX the last thing I'd do is track it- I'd get a Cayman S for that
Thanks for the good word from some of you all. I really do love the NSX. Don't see myself ever selling it. Here's the vid with a few 1:39's when I find some clean laps with no traffic. It's a bit long since I didn't know how to edit. Erik Messley changed my spring rates since this video (softer I'f I'm not mistaken) and made some small tweaks so the car is not as loose. It's even easier to drive now and threfore a bit quicker especially at Buttonwillow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaTdRVApY_0&t=323s
Excellent driving, you clearly have less power than the Porsches.
In your view what's the best improvement if you had to choose between non-compliance bits or better dampers?
I currently run Bilstein's with Zanardi springs.
Just to add to the discussion of the NSX being able to keep up with most cars on a track if you are a decent driver!
https://youtu.be/JqUfeg0_iww
This was last month at GingerMan with me trying to follow a gt4. The driver seemed to be fairly decent and had good lines. Mine is mildly modded with bilstens, sticky tires and pads, and I was almost able to hang on to him with worn out rears. I can't wait to see how much more I can extract out this platform while keeping it fairly stock! I also managed to set my PB of 1:47 in this session before my rotors cracked.
https://youtu.be/JqUfeg0_iww
This was last month at GingerMan with me trying to follow a gt4. The driver seemed to be fairly decent and had good lines. Mine is mildly modded with bilstens, sticky tires and pads, and I was almost able to hang on to him with worn out rears. I can't wait to see how much more I can extract out this platform while keeping it fairly stock! I also managed to set my PB of 1:47 in this session before my rotors cracked.
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